hearts and arrows on colored stones?

[crosado]

Okey this is probably a dummy question or maybe not.. But is it possible to get a hearts and arrow pattern on any colored stone? Like a round brilliant ruby for example?

all flames welcome

 

[Hest88]

Sure, but why? Most colored stones are cut to maximize the color, so if you're aiming for an ideal RB cut you might end up losing the color saturation.

 

[valeria101]

Actually... I don't think anyone tried. One can probably get the pattern, but it would mean little - quite likely the respective proportions would not be fine in any way for a stone with lower RI

It just so happens that the proportions that result in the harts and arrows pattern also make top light return for diamonds in particular. I doubt this could hold true for any other natural material.

H&A aside, many novelty cuts are designed to bring up some pattern (think stars, snow flakes, flowers... what not!) inside faceted gems. So... it may be possible to form some sort of arrows in there, even if not by exactly the same facet alignment as the round brilliant cut.

What would those be good for though ? Just curious

 

[mogok]

Yep agree with Ana...
Never tried or ever ask myself the question... Thanks for it!
One of my chemistry teachers in university used to repeat to us: "The best way to advance in science or knowledge is not to find good answers but to ask good questions.."
Thanks for your help Crosado!

 

[crosado]

Ok, so what I was trying to get at is.. there is no such goal of cutting colored gemstones for maximum light return? The goal is for maximizing color then?

I could not imagine something more beautiful than a round brilliant perfect clarity deep red ruby sparkling similar to a H/A diamond but in red tones.. I guess I'll keep it imagining it on my mind..

Or perhaps keep hunting for a red H/A diamond in the 1-2 carat range

 

[katbadness]

----------------
On 7/16/2004 9:30:33 AM crosado wrote:
Ok, so what I was trying to get at is.. there is no such goal of cutting colored gemstones for maximum light return? The goal is for maximizing color then?

I could not imagine something more beautiful than a round brilliant perfect clarity deep red ruby sparkling similar to a H/A diamond but in red tones.. I guess I'll keep it imagining it on my mind..

Or perhaps keep hunting for a red H/A diamond in the 1-2 carat range

----------------

Crosado, as far as I know, colored gems are generally cut to maximize color. I'm in the same hunt you are. I'd love to have a precision cut (better yet, H&A!!

) colored gem, though if I prefer a natural stone (instead of synthetics) I may have to lower my expectations

.

I believe, even if a sapphire is cut to the same precision as a diamond, the sapphire wouldn't have the same 'sparkle' as a diamond, as sapphire has a lower refractive index than diamond.

----------------
On 7/16/2004 9:39:41 AM strmrdr wrote:

According to my computer simulations simular proportions to ideal cut diamonds work very well with sapphire and ruby.

Id start with synthetic ruby rough as a base material if I was doing it.----------------

Hmmm... good idea. I'd love to give this a try.

 

[WinkHPD]

Richard Homer has made his career out of cutting colored stone for maximum light performance and beauty. His results have been stunning and there are literally hundreds of people trying, so far unsuccessfully to copy his work, especially in sapphires and rubies.

You can see his work here.

Wink

 

[lawmax]

You can get a fancy colored EightStar. They are amazing.

http://www.professionaljeweler.com/archives/articles/2001/jun01/0601dn3.html

 

[Cave Keeper]

----------------
On 7/20/2004 6:32:05 PM lawmax wrote:

You can get a fancy colored EightStar.
:
----------------

I hope people are not making cats eyes and stars with modern technology. They already know how to make color changing gemstones artificially since color changing is due to some particular crystal plane structures, which may be duplicated in lab production processes (I think). Synthetic Alexandrite is the best example.

 

[Diamondsbybree]

Doesn't Wink have the hearts and arrow colored Interlaps? www.freecz.com ?

 

[glitterata]

Ooo, I totally want an H&A cut synthetic sapphire or ruby! That sounds so cool! Experts, is it feasible? Can you cut the stone to get the arrows?

 

[katbadness]

----------------
On 7/20/2004 9:18:06 PM Cave Keeper wrote:


I hope people are not making cats eyes and stars with modern technology.
----------------

I thought they already do?

I seem to remember being told to be extra careful when buying certain cats eye and star gems??

The only one I can think of that I believe already has a synthetic counterpart is the Chrysoberyl cats eye, I could be wrong though.

Experts??

 

[katbadness]

----------------
On 7/20/2004 9:29:08 PM glitterata wrote:

Ooo, I totally want an H&A cut synthetic sapphire or ruby! That sounds so cool! Experts, is it feasible? Can you cut the stone to get the arrows?----------------

I'm sure it's doable, *especially* if you don't worry too much about the amount of rough that becomes dust through the faceting process (you know, since it's synthetic and all

). All it takes is a willing faceter (Michael E, anyone?

).

Doing this with a natural ruby/sapphire, however, may be another matter altogether.

 

[glitterata]

Aren't synthetic star sapphires pretty common--especially in mens' rings from the 60s? I seem to recall the brand name Linde? Yes? No? Experts?

 

[Cave Keeper]

----------------
On 7/21/2004 6:36:19 PM glitterata wrote:
Aren't synthetic star sapphires pretty common--especially in mens' rings from the 60s? :
----------------

No expert here. And, maybe this point isn't even related to star stones.

There's so many kinds of cat's eyes - that animal, Chrysoberyl, Alexandrite, Heliodor, Yellow Beryl, Golden Beryl (aren't these three the same mineral?), Emerald, Green Beryl, Green Tourmaline, Rubellite, (Non-Imperial) Jade, Chrome Diopside, Mystic (or Moonstone), Kornerupine, Apatite, Enstatite, Pezzottaite, Quartz, etc.

But I have yet to see for offer on the Web any Sapphire Cat's Eye, Ruby Cat's Eye, Spinel Cat's Eye, or Imperial Jade Cat's Eye.

 

[WinkHPD]

Yes synthetic star sapphires and rubies are very common, Linde was the big name vendor for many years, but I believe it was Union Carbide that developed the product. When they first came out many jewelers were in their buckets of tears about the demise of the star sapphire and ruby market, but the stone went from a little known collectors stone to a very popular stone and the naturals went up a few bazillion percent as a result of their new popularity.

One of the best imitation cats eyes that you will ever see is cabachon cut fiber optic cable.

Wink

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 7/16/2004 9:30:33 AM crosado wrote:

Ok, so what I was trying to get at is.. there is no such goal of cutting colored gemstones for maximum light return? The goal is for maximizing color then?


----------------

This shoudl be a H&A red CZ! Natural or synthetic sapphire/ruby would never have the optical properties of diamonds; colorless saphires do not look like diamonds either, after all.

But why would one say that getting the best color from a piece of rough is not compatible with getting the best brilliance? To the best of my knowledge, these are not conflicting "goals", technically.

Surely prices reflect this: those stones of top color, clarity and brilliance would definitely cost more than one that has just one or two of the three fine. If this is about rubies, than getting all things right results in good proof that rubies get more expensive than diamonds... only there are more perfect diamodns out there than there are perfect rubies.


I wish there was more talk about the cut of colored stones... hence my post.

 

[WinkHPD]

Actually, if you look at some of the before and after shots that I have posted here in Pricescope you will see that not only does Richard's cutting maximize the brilliance of the stones but usually has a dramatic improvement of the color of the stone. I am at home right now, but let me see if I can find an appropriate picture to post.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Here is a stone that we repaired for a client a few years ago. we received her ring with a damaged stone and repaired the stone and refurbished the ring. It is shown here before the stone was actually reset, it is just laying in the prongs.

Notice the improvement in the color as well as the brilliance.

Wink

 

[elmo]

It is interesting to me that Homer's style of cutting is promoted in response to someone asking about h&a-style colored gems. To me at least, concave faceting decreases the "order" or coherence of reflections off the stone's pavilion facets whereas h&a increases this coherence. I see a lot of colored gems (usually less expensive material like tourmaline and garnet) precision-faceted so that you see coherent, blocky reflections off of the pavilion facets that move in a broad pattern as the gem is rocked back and forth. On the other hand, in the concave faceted stones I've seen, scintillation is dramatically increased but at the expense of these big blocky reflections.

Both are kindof cool but to me it's the opposite effect.

 

[crosado]

Ok.. good conversation so far.. Now I think I am not so much interested in the cut but brilliance..

I was having a good dinner/conversation last night with a few friends at home and I could not keep my eyes out of my wife's ring

. I knew then I did an excellent job picking up her unbranded H/A. Her diamond kicks serious ...

So going back to the main point on this post.. I want to feel the same way about buying her first colored stone as I did last night. In my case that feeling will only come from a "bling bling"*

colored stone. I personally like rubies more than sapphires but consider both stones equally fascinating.

My hunt is on for a ruby or sapphire(natural) for single stone ring. I am shooting for maximum brilliance which in diamond terms H/A appears to do this trick pretty well

But of course looking good color as well

*bling bling=the real, big, shiny stuff

 

[fancycoloredfan]

Actually, I when i was buying my ring (it's a fancy colored cultured diamond -yellowish orangy colored - a gemesis stone) i was told that almost 90% of the rounds that gemesis cuts display the hearts and arrows pattern - and these are COLORED diamonds. they come w/ egl certs saying this.

I would have purchased the round for that reason, but i love the asscher.

 

[WinkHPD]

Elmo,

You are correct that with Richard' stones you do not get the big blocky flashes of color. You will almost always get an improved color and then much more brilliance and scintilation, but it will not be big blocks of brilliance.

I think that Hearts and Arrows will not do this for colored stones because of the different angles that each stone will use, but since I am not a cutter this is a dangerous thought on my part. I suppose it is conceivable, but I am not sure that the angles needed to make the H&A pattern will be the same angles to allow each stone to have the brilliance that you are seeking.

Wink

 

[Matata]

There's a great deal of info about gemstone cuts at faceters.com. He shows many faceting designs and explains which material is good for which cuts and why. For those who are interested, you can start at http://www.faceters.com/askjeff/answer45.shtml
where he discusses brightness.

 

[elmo]

----------------
On 8/4/2004 5:06:17 PM Matata wrote:

There's a great deal of info about gemstone cuts at faceters.com.
----------------

It's not exactly what I had in mind but Graham does some pretty stones with "precision" faceting where even if they're not h&a they have a distinct pattern like that.

 

[yowahking]

Ok, had to jump in on this one too, hope it is not too late to chat some more on this issue. First of all, the H&A was not intentional, the cut was the issue, the H&A was an accidental find. Many Ideal cut diamonds had the H&A 20 years before anyone noticed it. The marketers just up the price for the H&A stones. If there was a ruby cut that either helped the brillance or helped the color, and happened to have H&A, great. But no one will waste expensive material to get novelty. There are many great cutters in the world. Wink seems to be related to RIchard Homer, who is good but very expensive. That oval sapphire was great, but the 1970's lost wax setting killed it. Sorry Wink, just playfully jabbing. There is a Russian cutter in Thailand that is as good as anyone in the world, but understands how to get fantastic brillance out of each gem, even some like scapolite that are not known for brillance. He once stupmed me on "spritite" which I looked at for 10 min and gave up, he knocked over a sprite bottle and thought it would be fun to facet it with enough effort to win a competition. Micheal Dyber is maybe the most unique cutter in the world.

 

[Superidealist]

I've seen pictures of Michael Dyber's work before. He has a beautiful, sculptural style but I've never seen anything of his used in a piece of jewelry.

 

[yowahking]

After being warned by this site not to self promote, I am not sure how to show you a piece that I designed and won Best of Show last year in the AZ contest. It is sold so I can't be accused of trying to sell it to you and I can't make another so if you are interested in seeing pictures let me know. Micheal Dyber will have it on his site in OCT.

 

[Michael_E]

Scott,
I, for one, would love to see pics of whatever you've got that's interesting. Pictures of interesting gems are always welcome and if you don't say or imply that they're for sale, I don't see where anyone would feel compelled to think that you were being overly self promoting. If someone was interested in what you've posted they can always contact you off list and inquire. I don't know how the other posters and forum owner feel, but I think that this would be awfully boring if this was all chatter and no pictures. I say post 'em !

 

[Superidealist]

Here's the link for those interested in seeing some of Scott's designs.