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hearts and arrows markup.....

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giftgoddess

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 1, 2003
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37
another question-

(thanks again everyone for your help)

i have noticed on the sites that sell hearts and arrows a cut above- that the stones are almost the same price as the stones i saw in tiffanys. (roughly 2 carats, nothing less than VS2 and H/I color for about 25,000.) i am going crazy? or is the markup virtually the same!?
 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
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3,441
You'd really need the specs on the Tiffany's diamonds to compare. Table%, depth%, crown angle, pavillion angle, polish, symmetry, spread. Without hard numbers, you could be comparing apples and oranges.

A Cut Above's are Super Ideal Cuts with great sparkle and fire. I know, I own one. And, the premium for an ACA is small when you consider what you are buying. On my diamond, .766, H, SI1, 1.2 HCA rating, I paid $300 more than a similar .72 carat EX polish/VG symmetry with a 2+ HCA rating I was considering.
 

giftgoddess

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 1, 2003
Messages
37
ahh- ok, i understand. now- in your opinion there is a HUGE difference in the fire and brilliance of an H/A diamond vs. just a very well cut diamond?
 

eitan

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 13, 2003
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6
every diamond that have excelent make
and the right proportions have hearts and arrows
the problem is that you never see the hearts and herrows
in naked eye only under lab microscope
you can find better deals on the net for your stone
if you find eccelent make with optimal proportions
colorless with nice clarity you have hearts and herrows !!
eitan
 

Caratz

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
222
----------------
On 5/13/2003 3:40:11 PM giftgoddess wrote:

ahh- ok, i understand. now- in your opinion there is a HUGE difference in the fire and brilliance of an H/A diamond vs. just a very well cut diamond?
----------------

There is little difference, if any, in the fire and brilliance of an H&A diamond vs a non H&A with the same specs (table, depth, crown angle, pavilion angle).

When you buy a H&A diamond you are paying a premium for near-perfect symmetry, not enhanced light return. In larger diamonds this near-perfect symmetry is clearly visible to the naked eye. But to answer your question, no, there's really no difference when it comes down to light return.
 

AnnaMagdalena

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2003
Messages
70
Slight disagreement with Eitan:
>>the problem is that you never see the hearts and herrows
in naked eye only under lab microscope>>

Of course now that my stone is set, I can't see the hearts, BUT I see the ARROWS every day with my naked eye. Sometimes contrasting white against darker silver areas, sometimes showing up dark against contrasting white areas.

At night when I drive home and stop behind someone's red brake lights at a stoplight, eight red arrows show up! COOL!
 

Spyder

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2003
Messages
50
From what I hear about the industry, most consumers do not know the importance of cut, and therefore vendors cannot in general mark up for cut, and therefore cutters are not willing to make good cuts, since they can't charge extra money for them.

To put it another way: the cutter gets more money for a poorly cut large diamond than for a well cut smaller diamond because he cannot charge more for the better cut, because consumers are ignorant of the importance of cut and not willing to pay more for it. Therefore the cutter maximizes the cut for weight rather than for angles.

I mean, just look at the stats provided by most diamond vendors: they do not even include the angles necessary to determine if it is a good cut or not. This indicates a pervasive ignorance and disregard for cut in the industry. It also opens the possibility that you can get a well cut stone for no mark-up because the broker himself is not even aware of the quality of the cut and its value.
 

Final Cut

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Messages
85
Spyder - that was well put! !

Does that mean that the "H&A" vendors pick up these stones cheaply from the 'bewildered' brokers and mark them up and then sell them at a premium ? Just curious !
 

Caratz

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 4, 2002
Messages
222
There is a premium for stones at certain weight levels.

There is also a premium for exceptionally well cut stones.

Ideally, a cutter wants to get a premium for a well cut stone AND weight premium for finishing above a key cutoff point (like 1 ct).
 

dimonbob

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 12, 2000
Messages
670
Final Cut

"Does that mean that the "H&A" vendors pick up these stones cheaply from the 'bewildered' brokers and mark them up and then sell them at a premium ? Just curious !"

Ideal cut, superideal cut and H&A diamonds are all custom cut to those specifications. As you probably know, anytime you get something "custom" done, it costs extra.
No, the H&A vendors don't pick up anything for cheap. We all pay extra for our special product. The cutters that cut these diamonds are all highly trained and highly paid and they are not 'bewildered'.
 

Final Cut

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 21, 2003
Messages
85
dimonbob - thanks a lot - I did not really know whether the H&A stones are cut to specs or simply picked up by "H&A" vendors in the cutter market and then repackaged and 'branded' by the vendor- now I know that they are ordered by the vendor specifically from the cutter as H&A spec stones ....

I liked Spyder's post as well, although that seemed to imply that I (a consumer) can get a great H&A unbranded deal on PScope because the brokers don't really know what they are doing .... I probably don't think that to be the case ?

Do you think the mark-up for H&A is reasonably the same (in absolut or %age) as other diamonds ?

Thanks for all the help - btw I really like WF and everyone else here on the site - just being curious about this 'new business' of H&A!

I think everyone on this board understands that CUT is really really important (and I agree), but everything has it's price I guess....

kinda like if someone here on the board is trashing T_ffany and then marking up their own H&A by 35%, I would be a bit suspicious about their 'unbiased' opinions on cut... afterall there are still 4 c's ?

 

pqcollectibles

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,441
I guess I didn't make my point earlier.

I did not pay a premium for my ACA from White Flash.

I paid $300 more for a tad more carat weight and diamond that has better visual performance than the other one I was considering. 2+ on the HCA vs 1.2 on the HCA??? I could have paid $300 more for a better performer at the .72 carat level. (I considered a .72 and I bought a .766 carat instead. Same color, and 100% eye clean SI1.)

No, I did not pay a premium. I got what I paid for. A better performing diamond.

Just because lots of people don't shop to buy quality cut diamonds doesn't mean they don't notice them when they see one. I've gotten tons of compliments on my ACA since I got it. If they ask where I got it, I tell them about this GREAT company I found where you can get GREAT quality at BARGAIN prices. Then I tell them my Helzberg's story and how I got my diamond for LESS THAN HALF of Helzberg's price.


Oh how I do luuuvvv a BARGAIN!!!
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,271
Greetings friends,

If I may inject my .02c.

1. The incredible symmetry that exists in the super ideal H&A diamonds have more to offer a person in terms of sheer beauty that is observable with the eye no matter the light condition. The stronger the light source the more they will be able to observe the intense rainbows emanating from within the diamond. H&A offer a fire that is 2nd to none. The weaker the light source gets the more apparent the 3 dimensional symmetry becomes to the wearer/viewer as one of our readers already pointed out.

2. Premiums. Premiums? Once you do some hardcore jewelry store shopping AND REALLY see what's being offered for the money out there you'll find in fact that YOU'LL PAY LESS for the superior cut qualities many of us are offering. Being on the retail end of this I see the results of many people's research every day which they share with me and what's being offered for the money. You're hardly paying a premium.

My .02c

Peace,
Rhino
 

caratgirl

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2003
Messages
634
Giftgoddess,

I think I understand what you are commenting on. It is true that as you go up in size, clarity and color, the 'brand' factor seems to nudge up the price quite a bit. That was one of the reasons why I went for an 'unbranded' H&A, which just means a cut with nearly perfect symmetry.

It is true that even with a H&A cut, you may not be getting the best performance, and that's where all of the other cut factors come in, such as crown and pavilion angles and their relationship.

In checking the prices on the Internet, I notice that once a vendor quite rightly claims that the stone exhibits clear, crisp and well proportioned H&A's, the price jumps. At that point, it is up to the consumer to decide whether or not to pay a premium for that. There is a great deal of comfort in buying a stone that has all this documented instead of having to slog through endless lists of questionably cut diamonds. Me, I'm a slogger!

I do believe that if a stone is well cut, it usually does deserve that premium, and a vendor would be absolutely foolish not to charge more for it. They are running a business, after all. Having said that, it is still up to the consumer to compare specs properly and decide whether this is something you want to pay extra for. Some marketing is involved as well by all Internet vendors to attract consumers, but they sure do a good job as well as keep you very well informed, don't they?

I never wanted to purchase such a great cut before surfing these sites, but after reading so much, I just had to have a great cut...if that isn't marketing, I don't know what is!


As far as the Tiffany's comparison, it is entirely possible that there are many very well cut diamonds that they sell. I think they are doing themselves a disservice in not providing detailed specs on their diamonds, cause it will catch up with them eventually. Currently, you just have to hope for the best to be confirmed by an independent appraiser.

Just my 10 cents.
 
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