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Hearts and Arrows but HCA3.4?

S

soccerluv

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
38
Hi all, new to the forum.

Looked at a diamond today:
2.09, G, SI1(eye clean),GIA triple-X, no fluorescence, Hearts and Arrows


When evaluating it online, the HCA calculator gave it a rating of 3.4. However, it is a Hearts and Arrows diamond. Also, the Ideal Scope images looked great. Can anyone explain this low rating?


Thanks!
 
I'd not waste time trying to rectifying conflicting tool results.
I'd just move on and keep shopping.

There are many tools or metrics.
They do not all share the same bulls eye.
Some I trust more, like HCA and Idealscope and AGS 000 cut grade.
And some I trust less, like GIA 'Excellent' cut and an EGL cut rating.
You'd think GIA Excellent cut would be the end-all, but unfortunately it is more diamond-industry-friendly than consumer-friendly.
AGS's top cut grade of 000 is more consumer-friendly and rigorous.
Round being by far the most abundant diamond shape I'd just move on and find a round that scores under 2.0 on the HCA and has a good Idealscope image.

https://www.pricescope.com/tools/ideal-scope

IMO Hearts and arrows is a very 'squishy' term so I don't pay attention to it.
 
It gets dinged on the HCA because of the pavilion angle being 41+. While the HCA is a weeding tool and not a selection tool, it would still be something I would use as a primary source of information when considering a stone. GIA rounds their angles so the stone could have a much higher or lower pavilion angle. Same is true of the crown angle.

The term 'hearts and arrows' gets thrown around rather loosely by some vendors so don't get thrown by that. If you want a super ideal stone that exhibits a great hearts and arrows pattern, you'll have to go with a vendor that can back up that claim with information. Neither AGS nor GIA certifies hearts and arrows.

Kenny's advice is spot on and mine would certainly be the same.
 
HCA tool is a guide to help steer you towards stones that are likely to perform well. It is not meant for selection, only rejection. There is no reason, IMO, to reject a stone that has high symmetry and good light performance. If the idealscope image looks great and it indeed has hearts and arrows patterning (which I would ask to see and not take their word for it) and the price is right then I would certainly consider it. HCA tool DOES reject some stones that are winners and since you have selection tools that indicate this stone is a winner, those should override the HCA which is making an educated guess on the stone based off rounded numbers of 17 facets. It is also based off of its creators preferences, which favor shallower stones as opposed to deeper ones such as this.
 
Thank you for the responses! I feel a bit torn as both those thoughts were exactly my own. I asked to have the images sent so I could show them here. Also, the price is 22,8000...hard to argue.

If there's a better ~2ct for ~25-28K, I'd love to see!

Thanks again.
 
Who is calling it a hearts and arrows diamond? True hearts and arrows diamonds have the highest degree of cut precision, and without images to prove that, I am not so sure it really is. It is a GIA excellent cut with an HCA score in a range that really requires ASET or idealscope to see if there is leakage or other issues.
 
Are you sure it's a GIA graded stone and not a EGL one?
 
I am sure it's a GIA graded diamond, the certificate link is above and I saw it at Solomon Brothers. They are the ones labeling it H and A but I also looked it up on pricescope where it was called a hearts and arrows as well. I also viewed the actual idealscope and aset images.

I'm trying to get the images so I can show them here.

That whiteflash diamond looks beautiful and like a great option! Thank you for the help.
 
Attached are the idealscope, aset and hearts and arrows images.
Does this change any prior opinions?

_30946.jpg

_30947.jpg

_30948.jpg

_30949.jpg
 
Oh my goodness!

Did they tell you the idealscope looked great? I'm referring to your first posting in this thread. Because if they did, then they do not know how to interpret one.

There is leakage under the table shown in both the ASET and IS.

The girdle is dug out and is leaking light.

The hearts are not even close to being symmetrical and the arrows are not either.

I would avoid b/c I think you can do much better. Not knowing how much the stone is though maybe it's a steal.

What's your budget?
 
Oh my goodness is right! That is not only NOT a hearts and arrows stone, it is not one of the better GIA Ex cut stones. It is not precision cut and has a lot of leakage.

Go to the Whiteflash link provided above and enlarge and look at it's ASET and idealscope images. THAT is what a H&A stone looks like.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3114549.htm

Here are a couple more that I would 1000 times rather have than the first one posted:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3337364.htm

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3358637.htm
 
I see your budget now.

Can I ask who on PS was calling it a Hearts and Arrows stone? You mentioned you found it on PS as well and it was a Hearts and Arrows.

The 3 stones posted by Diamondseeker are gorgeous. I would love to have any 3 of those!

I think that's pretty bad that Solomon Brothers is marketing that stone as Hearts and Arrows b/c true H&A stones demand a premium. Modern round brilliants can have "hearts and arrows" patterning, but that doesn't make them a true Hearts and Arrows diamond. Like others have mentioned it's a squishy loose term people throw around. If you care about precision cutting, then go for a true Hearts and Arrows. If not, then don't worry about it. There are plenty of gorgeous stones that are not true Hearts and Arrows, but the one you posted probably isn't one of them (IMO).
 
Thank you ALL for your responses. I can see very clearly now that this is not a stone I want to go with. I think I got caught up at the store with the salesperson, etc.

On pricescope, when I did the diamond search, the Hearts and Arrows column was marked yes and the diamond was a Solomon Brother's diamond.

I think I'll go back to the drawing board. My initial specifications were to find a ct round brilliant with HCA<2; F-G; VVS2-VS1; ideal symmetry and polish (not necessarily Hearts and Arrows). Upon going to the vendor and looking at the stones in person, I thought that maybe giving a little on the clarity would be ok so long as it is an eye clean stone. I'd like to stay <30K if possible.

Again, all your time and help is greatly appreciated.
 
Also, the initial stone above is $22,800/
 
Hm, I'm thinking that Solomon Brothers clicked that column themselves.

I think with your budget you can get a superb diamond that will knock your (and your GF) socks off. As far as giving a little on clarity you can safely do so going down to a VS1 or VS2.

Let us know if we can help!

Good luck!

Oh and personally I wouldn't pay $22,800 for that stone. Like I said, I think you can do better!
 
soccerluv|1433706549|3886309 said:
Thank you ALL for your responses. I can see very clearly now that this is not a stone I want to go with. I think I got caught up at the store with the salesperson, etc.

On pricescope, when I did the diamond search, the Hearts and Arrows column was marked yes and the diamond was a Solomon Brother's diamond.

I think I'll go back to the drawing board. My initial specifications were to find a ct round brilliant with HCA<2; F-G; VVS2-VS1; ideal symmetry and polish (not necessarily Hearts and Arrows). Upon going to the vendor and looking at the stones in person, I thought that maybe giving a little on the clarity would be ok so long as it is an eye clean stone. I'd like to stay <30K if possible.

Again, all your time and help is greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

My goodness, again. The vendors do supply PS with the information that goes on the search page, so it is of concern that SB designated that stone H&A. I think they have some great jewelry, but honestly, I doubt I'd buy a diamond there considering this situation.

I personally like VS1 and would not purposely get a VVS2 because it is overpaying for something you cannot see. A VS1 is totally clean. I cannot see inclusions in my VS1 with a 10x loupe. Many here go to VS2 to get a nice eyeclean stone to get a larger size or higher color. F color causes a big jump in price. If size is a factor for her, I would definitely go with G or even H color as long as she has not specified D-F. The better cut the stone, the whiter it will face up, usually.

In the case of vendors such as Whiteflash or Good Old Gold, you don't have to limit yourself to their top tier of H&A diamonds. Their second tiers (Expert Selection and Platinum Select) are ideal cut diamonds that are worthy of consideration as well.
 
I was not aware that the vendors supply that information, good to know from here out.

Great, I think I'll stick to VS1 or 2 depending on the stone. Is doing a diamond search on pricescope enough or is it better to go to each vendors website individually? It seems that most of the reputable, good vendors already come up on on the search here.

I'll be sure to be back with potential stones!
 
I just thought of a fantastic stone for you! It is owned by a respected member here who has gotten a new ring and is selling her former ideal cut round. It is a 2.3 G VS2 with very excellent cut and it can be sold without the setting. The diamond should end up at the upper end of your budget but it is also a larger stone than the ones we have listed so far. If you happened to like the setting, it was basically brand new, so that would be an excellent deal to buy the setting as well.

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/rings/estate-modern/2-37ct-round-brilliant-pear-diamond-3-stone-ring-by-leon-mege-ags000-g-vs2#.VXSuIc9Viko

Note that the price is including the setting but they will sell the diamond alone for less than that. I honestly love this diamond and setting, personally. You'd get a larger stone for your money like this.

(To answer your question, I'd go to WF and GOG sites directly. You never know if new stones have made it onto the PS search yet.)
 
Holy mackerel that is a stunning stone and setting! I love the 3 stone with pear sides and Leon's version is probably my favorite. That center stone of 2.37 ct also has a big spread for it's carat weight. Talk about finger spread with that ring!

Just a note, if you do consider this ring/stone check what kind of trade-in/buy back policies Jewels by Grace has with it. You may not feel it's important now, but you never know.
 
WOW! Thank you for the info, have already contacted her. Hopefully it works out!
 
Awesome, that ring is amazingly gorgeous! :love: I hope it works out too.

If you end up going with the stone and setting, post hand shots after you propose!
 
diamondseeker2006|1433710439|3886329 said:
I just thought of a fantastic stone for you! It is owned by a respected member here who has gotten a new ring and is selling her former ideal cut round. It is a 2.3 G VS2 with very excellent cut and it can be sold without the setting. The diamond should end up at the upper end of your budget but it is also a larger stone than the ones we have listed so far. If you happened to like the setting, it was basically brand new, so that would be an excellent deal to buy the setting as well.

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/rings/estate-modern/2-37ct-round-brilliant-pear-diamond-3-stone-ring-by-leon-mege-ags000-g-vs2#.VXSuIc9Viko

Note that the price is including the setting but they will sell the diamond alone for less than that. I honestly love this diamond and setting, personally. You'd get a larger stone for your money like this.

(To answer your question, I'd go to WF and GOG sites directly. You never know if new stones have made it onto the PS search yet.)
Click to expand...

This is an awesome recommendation! A really great ring at a good price too! That original diamond is most definitely not a true h&a stone and it makes sense now why it is priced less than one.
 
I am so excited you contacted Grace about this stone! Seriously, it tempts me to get a stone of this caliber below retail. Good luck and keep us updated!
 
Thanks again and will keep you updated!
 
Not sure if you are an Instagram person but Leon Mege featured this setting and maybe this ring in his Instagram post today. It's pretty special.. for sure! :love:
 
Update...though I'd contacted Grace she'd apparently already promised the stone to someone else who decided to move forward with it. Very much disappointed!
 
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