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HCA Score vs. Certificate Stats

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dex517

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 4, 2014
Messages
5
Hi,

My wife and I are currently in the market for a ~1.0 carat, H-G color, SI2 or higher... As for the cut, this is where we are running into some confusion and would like some opinions. Currently we are looking at two stones (separate jewelers), with the following classifications:

Stone #1 is a 1.00 carat, G color, SI1 clarity, Very Good cut, Excellent polish and symmetry (GIA #2151822620).

Stone #2 is a 1.02 carat, G color, SI2 clarity, Excellent cut, Excellent polish and symmetry (no GIA cert, but Forevermark branded/certified).

The dilemma for us is that the HCA score for the Forevermark (~3.5 - Good) came out a lot worse than the GIA stone (1.0 - Excellent) with a lower cut rating. We are looking for insight as to why a VG cut stone scores better on the HCA scale than an Ex cut stone... We would think that all else fairly similar, the Ex cut stone should simply outperform the VG cut stone using any cut grading tool?

On another note, what is your opinion of Forevermark diamonds? They seem to be priced higher than similarly rated stones from GIA. Do you have confidence that Forevermark certifications are as reliable as GIA, if not more reliable or a higher quality given a higher price in some cases? Or is one simply paying for a Forevermark name/falling into a marketing trap?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
 
dex517|1399217855|3666017 said:
Hi,

My wife and I are currently in the market for a ~1.0 carat, H-G color, SI2 or higher... As for the cut, this is where we are running into some confusion and would like some opinions. Currently we are looking at two stones (separate jewelers), with the following classifications:

Stone #1 is a 1.00 carat, G color, SI1 clarity, Very Good cut, Excellent polish and symmetry (GIA #2151822620).

Stone #2 is a 1.02 carat, G color, SI2 clarity, Excellent cut, Excellent polish and symmetry (no GIA cert, but Forevermark branded/certified).

The dilemma for us is that the HCA score for the Forevermark (~3.5 - Good) came out a lot worse than the GIA stone (1.0 - Excellent) with a lower cut rating. We are looking for insight as to why a VG cut stone scores better on the HCA scale than an Ex cut stone... We would think that all else fairly similar, the Ex cut stone should simply outperform the VG cut stone using any cut grading tool?

On another note, what is your opinion of Forevermark diamonds? They seem to be priced higher than similarly rated stones from GIA. Do you have confidence that Forevermark certifications are as reliable as GIA, if not more reliable or a higher quality given a higher price in some cases? Or is one simply paying for a Forevermark name/falling into a marketing trap?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Click to expand...


I would pass on both stones (by the way, the gia report number didnt register?). I don't believe forevermark is a grading lab, like GIA. But there is no way I would chose based simply on HCA tool and the little information you seem to have currently.

What is your budget and is there a reason you are not looking at online vendors?
 
As far as I can tell, only Forevermark knows their selection criteria for diamonds bearing their trademark. There are practically no publicly verifiable data supporting the assumption that these diamonds are well cut. IMO, you are much better off purchasing a GIA Ex (and certainly a AGS 0) and getting a host of opinions about the diamond from this forum to make a very educated guess about whether it's actually a nice diamond. Additionally, you'll probably pay less than the Forevermark diamond. Or pay the same and get a bigger/better diamond. To answer your question, Yes, Forevermark is a marketing trap, IMO.

The HCA tool isn't used to grade a diamond. It gives you predicted maximal "light performance" assuming everything about the diamond is otherwise perfect. There are 57 facets on a diamond; you're inputting 4 averaged values. There are factors beyond those 4 values that can bump a diamond into VG cut territory. Additionally, the Excellent cut range (GIA) is incredibly broad, and actually includes diamonds that aren't all that excellently cut when compared to other excellently cut diamonds. The HCA tool was more or less created to help consumers weed out the bad "excellent" diamonds from the "excellent" diamonds that are worth investigating more.
 
I would like to add that there is a premium for hitting the 1ct mark and choosing slightly under that can save money. You can look at measurements, not ct weight.
What is your budget for the diamond?
 
Stive85|1399222188|3666040 said:
I would pass on both stones (by the way, the gia report number didnt register?). I don't believe forevermark is a grading lab, like GIA. But there is no way I would chose based simply on HCA tool and the little information you seem to have currently.

What is your budget and is there a reason you are not looking at online vendors?
Click to expand...

Thank you for your response. Why would you pass on both stones? What additional information do you need other than the reports and seeing them in person? Btw, I double checked the number and it comes up fine for me on GIA's site.

Budget is <$7,500.

Also, we are considering online vendors (e.g. Blue Nile), but my wife prefers seeing everything in person.
 
dex517|1399226230|3666081 said:
Stive85|1399222188|3666040 said:
I would pass on both stones (by the way, the gia report number didnt register?). I don't believe forevermark is a grading lab, like GIA. But there is no way I would chose based simply on HCA tool and the little information you seem to have currently.

What is your budget and is there a reason you are not looking at online vendors?
Click to expand...

Thank you for your response. Why would you pass on both stones? What additional information do you need other than the reports and seeing them in person? Btw, I double checked the number and it comes up fine for me on GIA's site.

Budget is <$7,500.

Also, we are considering online vendors (e.g. Blue Nile), but my wife prefers seeing everything in person.
Click to expand...



Sorry, the GIA works now for me. Don't know what I did the first time? The first diamond scores well on the HCA (1.0).... I would still want a idealscope to assess light performance before spending thousands on a diamond.


You will find better deals online likely and most reputable places have a good return policy that allow you to send the diamond back without hassle.

Can you request and idealscope and ASET from your jeweler for the first one? Remember, these stores spend thousands on specials lights that make all diamonds sparkle, so testing it in normal lighting is good, or having an Idealscope and ASET taken to be sure.
 
teobdl|1399224218|3666064 said:
As far as I can tell, only Forevermark knows their selection criteria for diamonds bearing their trademark. There are practically no publicly verifiable data supporting the assumption that these diamonds are well cut. IMO, you are much better off purchasing a GIA Ex (and certainly a AGS 0) and getting a host of opinions about the diamond from this forum to make a very educated guess about whether it's actually a nice diamond. Additionally, you'll probably pay less than the Forevermark diamond. Or pay the same and get a bigger/better diamond. To answer your question, Yes, Forevermark is a marketing trap, IMO.

The HCA tool isn't used to grade a diamond. It gives you predicted maximal "light performance" assuming everything about the diamond is otherwise perfect. There are 57 facets on a diamond; you're inputting 4 averaged values. There are factors beyond those 4 values that can bump a diamond into VG cut territory. Additionally, the Excellent cut range (GIA) is incredibly broad, and actually includes diamonds that aren't all that excellently cut when compared to other excellently cut diamonds. The HCA tool was more or less created to help consumers weed out the bad "excellent" diamonds from the "excellent" diamonds that are worth investigating more.
Click to expand...

Thanks, your comment about the # of facets and their impact on cut grade is very interesting. And given your info regarding GIA Ex cut category being so broad would you simply not consider a VG cut stone, all else equal?

And regarding HCA as a tool, would you advise "weeding out" the Forevermark stone based on this (putting aside the Forevermark branding)?
 
Here are 3 nice selections for under $7500 (there is an additional PriceScope discount at JamesAllen if you ask for it).
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/?CaratFrom=0.05&CaratTo=10.00&Color=H,G,F&Clarity=SI1,VS1,VS2&Cut=Ideal,Excellent,TrueHearts&PriceFrom=400&PriceTo=7500&Sort=Carat%20desc%20,DefaultOrder&TabSelected=3&DiamondID=92006,247289,246976
You can get more info from James Allen about these diamonds, particularly IdealScopes (already shown for the "True Hearts" selections... btw those hearts are not really "hearts and arrows" as defined by other vendors--the hearts have a bit more variability than the top, top brands). JA has a great return policy. Upgrade policy isn't as good, but I think the return policies are quite generous if you want to "see" the diamond before fully committing. They will pay for the return shipping if you're not satisfied anytime within 60 days. Just don't abuse it!

It takes significantly more effort to find a GIA VG that is extremely nice. There are great deals in diamonds with a slightly thicker girdles that bump an otherwise beautiful diamond from Excellent to VG based on the girdle thickness alone. You need to have very precise proportions, though, to be relatively confident that the grade was given based on the girdle alone. Eg. 34.5 crown angle, 40.8 pavilion, ~56 table, star ~50-55, lower girdle facet 75-80, plus idealscope. Cutters don't just randomly cut to those proportions. Chances are that if you get that combo, then the cutter was trying to maximize "light performance", regardless of VG or Ex cut grade that it ended up with. If you see that combo in a VG, then try to figure out why it wasn't given an Ex cut grade.

I have the same information about Forevermark as anyone else, which is to say very little. It could be a very beautiful diamond, but based on the HCA score I wouldn't bet on it. But it could be nice. Could you post the 4 numbers that you put into the HCA to get that score?
 
teobdl|1399230092|3666114 said:
Here are 3 nice selections for under $7500 (there is an additional PriceScope discount at JamesAllen if you ask for it).
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/?CaratFrom=0.05&CaratTo=10.00&Color=H,G,F&Clarity=SI1,VS1,VS2&Cut=Ideal,Excellent,TrueHearts&PriceFrom=400&PriceTo=7500&Sort=Carat%20desc%20,DefaultOrder&TabSelected=3&DiamondID=92006,247289,246976
You can get more info from James Allen about these diamonds, particularly IdealScopes (already shown for the "True Hearts" selections... btw those hearts are not really "hearts and arrows" as defined by other vendors--the hearts have a bit more variability than the top, top brands). JA has a great return policy. Upgrade policy isn't as good, but I think the return policies are quite generous if you want to "see" the diamond before fully committing. They will pay for the return shipping if you're not satisfied anytime within 60 days. Just don't abuse it!

It takes significantly more effort to find a GIA VG that is extremely nice. There are great deals in diamonds with a slightly thicker girdles that bump an otherwise beautiful diamond from Excellent to VG based on the girdle thickness alone. You need to have very precise proportions, though, to be relatively confident that the grade was given based on the girdle alone. Eg. 34.5 crown angle, 40.8 pavilion, ~56 table, star ~50-55, lower girdle facet 75-80, plus idealscope. Cutters don't just randomly cut to those proportions. Chances are that if you get that combo, then the cutter was trying to maximize "light performance", regardless of VG or Ex cut grade that it ended up with. If you see that combo in a VG, then try to figure out why it wasn't given an Ex cut grade.

I have the same information about Forevermark as anyone else, which is to say very little. It could be a very beautiful diamond, but based on the HCA score I wouldn't bet on it. But it could be nice. Could you post the 4 numbers that you put into the HCA to get that score?
Click to expand...

Sorry, don't have the numbers on hand - plugged them in yesterday when looking and forgot to save - will get them again from jeweler tomorrow.

And thank you for the three recommendations above. What is your opinion on fluorescence? My wife's current stone has faint fluorescence (we are replacing because she chipped it), it is an I color and we are using it to compare with the replacements and in some cases are finding the replacements with better cert stats to be darker to the naked eye... The jewelers have mentioned it could be because our current stone has fluorescence which can enhance the brightness.
 
Fluorescence can give you some savings. I think the non True Hearts I posted has faint FL. that would be my choice if I were buying a diamond today.

I haven't delved too much into FL from an aesthetics perspective, but I think the general consensus among people who actually know what they're talking about is that it very, very rarely causes negative effects, and chiefly only in stones w/ strong fluorescence.

This is what I've gathered: It's a myth that all stones w/ fluorescence will look whiter all the time. It's a myth that all stones with FL will look whiter even in the right light. Sometimes the diamond just looks hazier. Sometimes you can hardly notice anything. Especially in diamonds w/ faint fluorescence. A lot depends on the light that you're in: if the light has no UV rays, then absolutely no effect will be seen. There are no uniform rules about the effects of fluorescence, and that goes for the "fluorescence make the diamond look whiter" rule.

I don't know why your wife's I color appears whiter. Could be FL, but it's more likely a combination of cut, lighting, and maybe grading discrepancies if those diamonds are graded by labs other than GIA or AGS.
 
teobdl|1399234527|3666156 said:
Fluorescence can give you some savings. I think the non True Hearts I posted has faint FL. that would be my choice if I were buying a diamond today.

I haven't delved too much into FL from an aesthetics perspective, but I think the general consensus among people who actually know what they're talking about is that it very, very rarely causes negative effects, and chiefly only in stones w/ strong fluorescence.

This is what I've gathered: It's a myth that all stones w/ fluorescence will look whiter all the time. It's a myth that all stones with FL will look whiter even in the right light. Sometimes the diamond just looks hazier. Sometimes you can hardly notice anything. Especially in diamonds w/ faint fluorescence. A lot depends on the light that you're in: if the light has no UV rays, then absolutely no effect will be seen. There are no uniform rules about the effects of fluorescence, and that goes for the "fluorescence make the diamond look whiter" rule.

I don't know why your wife's I color appears whiter. Could be FL, but it's more likely a combination of cut, lighting, and maybe grading discrepancies if those diamonds are graded by labs other than GIA or AGS.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Thank you. Thank you all for your posts - very helpful!
 
 
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