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Has anyone had issues with Brian Gavin diamonds? Whiteflash

Rockdiamond said:
The company that is not a sponsor does not post here, rather depending on others to recommend them. Just from a practical standpoint, that shows a lot more commitment on the part of the company that does actually sponsor this forum.
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David: Forgive me, but I take issue with this. Both companies in the subject line have stellar reputations. Both have rich histories of client satisfaction. Both contribute to the internet knowledge base on many topics, and particularly in their areas of specialty. Both companies have demonstrated a strong, historic and unarguable 'commitment' to delivering top products, services and client satisfaction.

Posting here is not a prerequisite for commitment. There may be specific reasons any given company chooses to post on a forum like this, or not, beyond our knowledge.

I fully trust the misunderstanding or mistake which started this thread will be resolved, because that's entirely in-keeping with the terrific reputations of both companies.
 
@Rockdiamond, I am sorry, but I am having a hard time following the logic here. So, just because someone is not a PS "Featured Sponsor" and does not post on this site regularly, that makes them less of a credible vendor? David Klass and Steven Kirsch are also two other PS beloved vendors, yet no one is questing their integrity based on the sheer fact that they do not post here. If anyone is interested in learning more about BGD's business, they are more than welcome to read the "About us" section on their site http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/home/about/ or spend some time on their blog - http://blog.brianthecutter.com/
I am sure that all vendors here and associated parties have their opinions about each other's products/business, and before someone starts arguing - as competitors, it is impossible to just "love each other and live happily ever after in coexistence". It is normal to criticize, point out difference and attempt to get a sale. Now, of course, as grown ups and reputable vendors, you can't start saying negative things about each other and are cordial with one another, which is the right thing to do!
Was the comment from the BGD rep nice for WF to hear - probably not. But that is just the opinion of one person, as humans, we all have said things at one point or another in our lives that we might have not meant, that we have regretted, or that could be taken out of context. It is not like BGD posted on their website "Do no buy WF stones, ours are better", so to have so many other vendors join this thread in "disapproval" over a rep's comment, frankly, I find it a bit catty.
I will still continue to be a BGD customer because I personally have always been happy with the service and diamond quality. Not to say that I will ignore all other vendors - you guys are all good! But can you please stop critiquing a vendor that is not even on this site to defend their point of you, please call them directly instead.
 
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No offense intended to any seller guys. The term "PS recommended seller" was used. I felt that required clarification. Simple as that.
I offer. I offer critique of neither companies business practices. Both are spoken well of here on PS.
Other than one company is financially committed to PS.
We all love this forum. If all the sponsors pulled out, we'd all loose
 
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lol, I don't know why, but I found the above exchange to be amusing ... David is probably the only poster who can catch flak for trying to compliment a PS sponsor!
;):lol:

(I should clarify that I interpreted David's comment about commitment to mean "commitment to PS", whereas those who responded interpreted the word more broadly -- i.e., I don't disagree with the responses either, given that context)
 
For what it's worth, here is our perspective on competition. Every business must add value if they are to be successful. It must be real and they must communicate their added value effectively. Otherwise, you will not be sustainable as a company.

We work in a niche composed of other merchants offering high quality diamonds. A big part of what we all do is to educate consumers on the benefits of ideal and super ideal cut diamonds, in the sincere belief that light performance is the most important aspect of diamond beauty.

The broader market is really not very aware of how much cut quality actually matters! Therefore, those of us making the case are all serving to raise awareness among consumers. That benefits the consumers and also grows the pool of potential customers for all in our niche. Whether a vendor is active on pricescope or is advertising and educating in other places and ways, we still benefit from their efforts promoting great cut quality. And they benefit from ours. What would be much worse than losing some sales to competitors in our niche, is if nobody else was out there spreading the gospel of cut quality.

So we have nothing against ANY of our competitors. If their value proposition is better than ours, they deserve to win the business, and our respect because we know it is not easy to do. If they are taking care of customers and giving the public great experiences with diamonds, we respect and appreciate them for that. They are helping to make the market healthier for all of us.
 
Guys please don't imply any meaning beyond my point. I don't have anything against our competitors. We have a policy not to bad mouth them. That's just smart business.
But that's not the issue here.
Say for example, that the best company in the world does not participate here.
In such a case all we have is opinions from people who are not part of that company.
Additionally PS management has zero say over the company's policies and behavior.
Nor can they control me, or other participants- but clearly mgmt has more leverage over a company that feels this forum is important enough to participate- that does not want to get booted. Sponsor or not.

Thanks drk14- I am only speaking of commitment to this forum.
I get attacked no matter what I do here:)
 
Bryan Bryan Bryan. To quote Ronald Reagan, there you go again.
I've already stated that I find your presence to be an asset to the forum. But statements like " the broader market doesn't understand that cut quality matters" is badmouthing the competition IMO.
You have your ideas about light performance which differ from other knowledgeable sellers that are totally committed to cut quality. That's why the people that choose you do- or any of the other quality sellers participating . No need to knock anyone.
It's great to discuss these differences - but in this context it sounds like an ad which is knocking the competition broadly.
 
SimoneDi said:
Was the comment from the BGD rep nice for WF to hear - probably not. But that is just the opinion of one person, as humans, we all have said things at one point or another in our lives that we might have not meant, that we have regretted, or that could be taken out of context. It is not like BGD posted on their website "Do no buy WF stones, ours are better", so to have so many other vendors join this thread in "disapproval" over a rep's comment, frankly, I find it a bit catty.
I will still continue to be a BGD customer because I personally have always been happy with the service and diamond quality. .
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I find the responses here are entirely justified given the context. The comment was factually inaccurate rather than just opinion. Making comments we regret individually is different when you are representing a business and these tactics are really quite disheartening to read about. I'm sure it is not representative of BGD and this does not negate their excellent customer service and quality that you have experienced and in truth they are quite disjointed matters. But for the conversation at hand there is really no need to sugar coat it, it is what it is and that rep should be advised. Not that I'm especially loyal to WF but it's just this behaviour reflects poorly regardless of the other company discussed.

Texas Leaguer said:
The broader market is really not very aware of how much cut quality actually matters!
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Not sure what's invalid or negative against the competition in this statement, we reached the same conclusions looking at virtual inventory numbers in the other thread. Isn't also the premise of what Pricescope is really about? I can't see any bad mouthing.
 
Rockdiamond said:
But statements like " the broader market doesn't understand that cut quality matters" is badmouthing the competition IMO.
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If by "broader market", you mean the vast number of folks who buy diamonds on the basis of a quick 5 min discussion at a mall jeweller about the 4C's and who get sucked into the line that higher colour and clarity = better quality diamond (even if their websites say that cut is the most important thing but their sales reps entirely ignore that line), I would more or less agree.

I don't see that as bad mouthing, but more or less a ponce on consumers who choose not to educate themselves on these matters and a ponce on the jewellers that prey on them to make a buck (which is entirely their remit as businesses).
 
Maybe I'm hypersensitive. In the past few weeks discussion has heated up a bit.
Without a doubt I agree with the sentiment that there's plenty of crud cuts out there. But those of us here participating are ALL cut mavens. In spite of the fact we see things differently.
Peace Bryan.
 
Henry Thomas...I just wanted to say congratulations for choosing an absolutely GORGEOUS diamond!!! :love::appl: I find it totally unacceptable that a competitor would try to say negatives about that stone because it is unfounded and absurd. I have dealt with Whiteflash for over 10 years and love their ACA diamonds and have bought several. Often they have the best selection and most competitive prices for superideal cut diamonds. I also do try to give PS sponsors (and WF is one) my business as I have gained SO much knowledge from this forum!
 
Rockdiamond said:
Maybe I'm hypersensitive. In the past few weeks discussion has heated up a bit.
Without a doubt I agree with the sentiment that there's plenty of crud cuts out there. But those of us here participating are ALL cut mavens. In spite of the fact we see things differently.
Peace Bryan.
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Yes, David. A little bit of hypersensitivy there Bro! I was only stating a well known fact- carat, clarity, and color are relatively straightforward concepts that most diamond shoppers understand pretty well. Cut quality is far more complex and it is not at all surprising that it is the least understood of the 4 Cs. Even by many tradespeople.

Pricescope is a community that provides a deeper understanding of all things diamond, and particularly a better understanding of cut quality. You have said many times here that consumers outside of pricescope are more interested in things like spread and getting a bigger stone for the buck. I was essentially acknowledging that assessment!
Peace David :)
 
For context- we have a tradesperson posting here on PS who says that anything other than his preferred brand is a "lifeless lump of carbon"
That happened about two weeks ago.
To prove his point he said something like "Rockdiamond may like poorly cut stones"....yada yada. So yes, sensitive.
But to your point- I believe this is a big part of the difference between us.
Spread is vital to many cut mavens.
You don't need to sacrifice reasonable spread to get a great looking, super well cut stone.
Put simply - I believe that many discussions on PS center around cut aspects which are indeed important- yet the value of spread is very much understated. Comparing a typical 1ct 6.25mm 62% depth ideal cut to a beautifully cut one carat 6.45mm 60% depth is just one example.
Or, in the case of fancy shapes, people are led to believe that simply because a stone is shallow, it's badly cut.
But more importantly- I view you as a great "sparring" partner to hash out these differences to the advantage of all our readers.
Right on Bro!!
 
I can relate to Rockdiamond and what he says many times. This forum leans towards cut that is why his view which is more towards balance is criticised. Cut is the most important C, to how a diamond looks. I am just a consumer and have no qualification in this. I can see that Cut is the most important C when we are speaking about lower color diamonds which we want to look like the best which is supposed to be D colour, Flawless, Ideal/Excellent Cut. We don't buy everything though in top quality as no one can afford it, unless a billionaire maybe. So there is different categories such as low quality, medium quality and top quality and lots of different describing words.

No doubt someone who can buy a G color say, medium color quality in my head, would have a beautiful diamond if it had a medium cut, may not be like an ideal but still would be better than a L color with a medium cut. This is personal taste too as some may like the L color, and do in antique cut diamonds.

As Rockdiamond said some cut maven's want spread, in other words they believe the ideal cut which has been traded and considered by labs to be the best cut is not so and they prefer another look. I remember reading an article a long time ago that said Europe preferred larger 60/60 cut rather than the ideal American cut which they thought was like the tip of a pencil. Whether this was a genuine like in Europe or just someone trying to put down American cut I don't know. So I can see that Rockdiamond is right some may like a more open look to the diamond even though it is not producing the BEST light as medium is good too or medium is their ideal/excellent rather than what a computer says provides the best light return.

Even Garry Holloway who has studied such things has said he prefers shallow stones for pendants and that some people in the 18-25 range may prefer shallow stones for engagement rings whereas older people may prefer deeper more contrasting stones.
Garry has also said here that he prefers D Colour SI to lower colors and higher clarities.

When you go to the supermarket do you buy all the higher priced items, or all the supermarket's own cheaper brands or from the range somewhere in between. Most will by medium with one or two items from either side I would think. Cornflakes which taste much the same from the own brands, something from the best brands that looks tasty. If you can afford to eat all your meals in restaurants then you would not need the supermarket even.

If we look back to old European cut, transitional cut, brilliant cut, who is to say there won't be another cut. There was the Old English Brilliant too.
The thing is the Ideal and Excellent cut is in vogue, the standards, and they suit the purpose of this forum to promote Cut and therefore sell people lower color diamonds which are more affordable. This means more sales. If we all could buy D color Cut may not be so important as long as it was in the middle somewhere. Ofcourse we have heard wink many times saying a D color poor cut looks bad.

Rockdiamond sells a lot of fancy cut diamonds and the round cut is maybe just a different brand from what he is selling. I feel he gets ganged up upon here on this forum, although he can well defend himself and articulate what he wants and needs to say. We need more vendors like him on the forum to give a more balanced view.

I am not against Ideal cut just that is what it reads like.

As far as Whiteflash and Brian Gavin, both great vendors, both long time vendors, both very knowledgeable people at the helms of their companies and anything that is a problem has always been ironed out before with customers on the forum in all the years I have been reading. I would have no qualms of being wrongly done to by either of them or any other long term vendor on here. The vendors here are not just a person selling diamonds they have put a lot of time and effort into their business in the public eye, you can search past posts for yourself and find out everything other customers have criticised and had made good. Sometimes a customer may not get what they want but on the whole it is usually their expectations which were wrong or something they had not read before but which was there if they had done so.
 
It is written here many times by consumers repeating what has been written in the past on the forum, that Very Good cut is not very good at all. What if diamonds were not lower, medium, top but lower, medium, 80% best cut and then Ideal/Excellent. (Ideal and Excellent are even seen as two separate grades although they are both standard top cut grades by two top tier labs one of which is the TOP lab.) So if the top labs don't agree why should Rockdiamond and the other dealers on here have the same opinion.

Happy medium I say:)

For engagement rings anyway, people are usually starting out, buying houses why should they buy top anything when their money could go further. Ofcourse lower colors allows this when paired with top cut.
 
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Thank you so much Pyramid.
So many times it feels like I'm fighting an army. I have learned a lot in those battles- and your post was a real spirit lift.

There are some members fervently devoted to the idea of all or nothing Cut assessment. Even suggesting otherwise has caused the battles.
My real life experience tells me that people do want more balance generally when shopping. I'm not saying folks who embrace the idea of super ideal are wrong by any means.
Just that they tend to dominate PS.
The brands of stones being discussed here are special because of who is selling them.
Many times my discussions/ disagree with Bryan and others hinge on science. Rather interpretation of science.
The real science is running a diamond business so that you've got a sterling reputation.
Ensuring consistency in a brand is one way of doing that.
I totally "get" Bryan's side.
I respect and sell super ideal diamonds. But it's not our main business.
Me? I prefer the spice in life:)
 
Rockdiamond said:
Comparing a typical 1ct 6.25mm 62% depth ideal cut to a beautifully cut one carat 6.45mm 60% depth is just one example.
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6.25mm a little understated for a 1ct 'ideal' proportions? I'd see that at around 0.94ct with 34.75/40.7/57/62. 1ct with those proportions should be around 6.39mm. If 60% then bumps to 6.54mm. A big difference nevertheless.
 
Thanks for correcting my specifics gm89uk.
The main point on which we agree is that there are super well cut stones that do have noticeable differences in spread for the weight.
 
I have been staying out of this thread because I feel it is bad form for trade members not directly involved in these situations to pile in.
That is just my opinion and not a dig at anyone.

However David you promoted me to chime in.
You have a website and ebay store and sell diamonds.
You have a client base and know how to treat your customers well.
You know a lot of diamond cutters.
Cut some, call them Superb60s and promote them.
In other words put your money in the game instead of talk.
The poor me line is getting very lame after more than a decade.
Frankly your better than that and if you put the same effort into them as you do playing the victim you could further your cause in a much more productive way.
This is not the first time I have said this and not even the 100th over the years but your still haven't acted.
Peace out :}
 
All good points Karl
The quick answer is that affecting the round brilliant market from the supply end ( as opposed to the information end) is a massive undertaking. And the ship has left the dock. The majority of RBC cut today sacrifice spread.
If I could go back in time with a couple - or 5-10 million bucks I could change things.
Sorry this discussion popped up here- it's an important discussion which deserves its own thread.
 
And Karl- to be clear - consumers are the victim.
 
Rockdiamond said:
And Karl- to be clear - consumers are the victim.
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Well if you feel that consumers are victims for not having 60/60s available then get the cutters cutting.
You don't have to start out with millions just start with 2-4 stones and build it up if you have such faith in it.
The rest if just talk.
Tired talk after all these years.
 
I have other fish to fry Karl.
As you should be well aware- 4 stones ain't gonna do spit to widely promote any brand of diamond.
Education through discussions is my way of helping consumers on this subject.
If you're tired of discussions on the subject of the current state of RBCs on the market, no one is forced to participate.
 
As a consumer, I hear both Karl and Rockdiamond. When I come here, I see "I~G, SI1~VS1, 54-58, 34-35, 40.6-40.9, less than 62". I have a slightly different taste and love top heavy diamonds such as 35.5/40.6, and posted a thread related to that. It is a missed opportunity for both vendors and consumers. Despite my love for top heavy diamonds, when I put my money, I would go for 34.5/40.7, because this is perceived as the best by many consumers and vendors. It is also for financial protection, just in case I need to sell. I feel similarly about the 60/60. It is not just about education.
Like Karl said, unless a reputable vendor cuts and markets high quality 60/60s and offers the same level of flexible financial protection as from GOG/WF/CBI, 60/60s go nowhere. After all, the bad rep for 60/60 started from diamond vendors themselves. They promoted (still do) poorly cut 60/60s to those who look for larger diameters WITHOUT any education on what they are missing.
 
New thread please!!
You're raising some important points that really need discussion.
The " flexible financial protection" is a main one. Consumers needing to sell a diamond can quickly find out how few people (buyers) would pay extra for aspects described as critical by sellers and members here. So if you're selling to a PS member ...maybe. But non PS members outnumber us by billions:)
 
WF get lots of sales, and their upgrade policy is one of them. Which other vendor that has widely available idealscopes/ASET with an excellent upgrade policy that reliably sell RELIABLY beautiful 60:60s.

Karl has suggested that if you were passionate about this, you could have done it before.

But part of your arguments Rockdiamond is that beautiful 60:60 doesn't have picture perfect scopes, or perfect optical symmetry (as that could reduce scintillation factor). If that's the case, how do you market them? The diamonds you love are not necessarily symmetrical and picture perfect IS thats pleasing to magnified images. That makes them difficult to sell unless people love them dynamically in person. This makes international recognition difficult and an online business model almost impossible as a credible competitor for a vendor wishing to sell pretty 60:60 stones.
 
If somebody (Rockdiamond) is able to capitalize on a niche market and sell leaky, included, crushed-ice diamonds, marketing the 60/60, IMHO, is relatively easy. Just like I have seen good 35.5/40.6, I have seen good looking 59/60s and 60/60s with great spread and light reflection and reduced, but, enough contrast and dispersion. In fact, there are many PSers who own and look for 60/60s.

Another thing. WF ACA and GOG ASC (maybe CBI as well) don't include any diamond with medium blue or stronger. Brian Gavin, however, has a separate product line called "Brian Signature Blue". It is equally well cut, inspected, cool, comes with the same upgrade policy, and people buy, while other vendors stay away from this.

One more, a diamond does not need to have the best symmetry or light performance to be marketed. GOG platinum selects and WF ES/PS are great examples. They are up front about it that those don't have the best symmetry and optical properties. But those sell well as well.

PS. not being sarcastic. I think some of your diamonds are really cool and stunning, RD, while some are not to my eyes. :)
 
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Thanks Pyramid.
When I initially read your post I was ticked off at the use of the terms "leaky" and "crushed ice" as derogatory terms.
Thanks for the "PS":)

I have no intention or interest in trying to promote or sell round diamonds as a core part of our business. And as I've pointed out- well cut 60:60 is harder and harder to find.
Of course we sell RBCs- but it's a minor part of our business.
I participate here for a number of reasons.
The first is that it has proven to be beneficial for the company I founded 19 years ago.
But secondly is a very strong interest in the market as a whole and how consumers are educated. 19 years ago no one had even heard of Y-Z color grade. I'm proud of inroads we've made.
But let's face it, there's so many horror stories of dishonest jewelers. As someone who is a jeweler and prides myself on integrity in business, it has motivated me to stand up for a more balanced discussion here. It has not been an easy task.
As gm89uk points out the tools used to "confirm" ideal cuts do not work as intended for stones that place scintillation at a priority.
This is part of what I'm trying to weave into discussions here.
This is in line with our business model- but I also sincerely believe it benefits shoppers of all stripes to have a more balanced discussion.
 
I, like you, also love the idea of crown top heavy diamonds and if I ever convince the wife that she needs an upgrade, it would be my choice! However we have nice reflection images, and H&A as reassurance as online consumers.

Lots of 60:60 diamonds will have amazing IS, but if the stone you're trying to promote will look inferior to other stones with current implementations that are implied to correlate with beauty (H&A, ASET), then you're starting an uphill struggle against competitors and I fail to see how it would be easy.
 
As a consumer I have the brains to understand both sides of the cut story. Instead of trying to divide why not agree both of you have beautiful stones that appeal to different people for different reasons. That's why you are both popular vendors. I get tired of you David playing the martyr. You have an excellent product for some people. WF has an excellent product for others. People vary.
 
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