Has anyone had issues with Brian Gavin diamonds? Whiteflash

[Serg]

Not going to happen because numbers don't mean jack with most fancy cuts.
Which is the biggest failure of the agsl SE/EC cut grading.
Well after that it doesn't work because it does not and can not grade patterns and life.
You can follow the formula in the cutting guides to the letter and cut a crappy stone.

It will done. Numbers may work for diamonds in same way as they work for vines. Scores are very helpful to select ( reduce selection) vine, beer in the online. Objective and subjective grades for Fire, Brightness in same scale for all cuts and size can be done a soon( may be just in couple years).

 

[Serg]

@Serg -- I understand your point, but what I was suggesting was to develop non-quantitative tools (e.g., some form of imaging) to allow relative comparisons without assigning any numbers to the difference in performance.

Side by side video comparison is available on several sites.
Before side by side optical performance "analog " comparison a consumer needs search( sorting) diamonds by digital metric . Without such search ( sorting ) system a consumer can not find best candidates( short list for side by side comparison) for him a diamond in reasonable time.

It is not necessary that optical performance metric grades diamonds. Main goals for online sales that optical performance metrics help find similar diamonds , reduce number of option according consumer preferences

 

[drk14]

David,

But quick and simple wins the day in production line shops.

I understand the cost benefits (for capital equipment and labor) of "quick and simple", but is it really a "win" when ~90% of the fancy cut inventory is dismissed by online consumers as "mushy" (and when, as you stated previously, return rates for fancies are "astronomical")?

They have it DRK
The ViBox has that capability.

Does it really have capability to properly portray the full character of any type of diamond? You are very familiar with a "pinfire"/"crushed ice" style of faceting whose attractiveness you often praise on PS, but which the majority of PS members never recommend to potential buyers. Can a ViBox video accurately convey the way such a diamond appears in person? If so, are there any examples?

 

[drk14]

Side by side video comparison is available on several sites.

Side-by-side is an added convenience of course, but it wasn't the main point of my suggestion (it's not so difficult to open multiple browser windows to achieve the same result). Based on videos I've seen so far, however, appearance of long-pathlength small-area VFs is not well represented, so that diamonds that rely predominantly on such type of light return do not look appealing. That's why I was asking about multifocus stacking earlier.

Without such search ( sorting ) system a consumer can not find best candidates( short list for side by side comparison) for him a diamond in reasonable time.

True in principle, but in many real cases (on PS), the customer has wants that are too ambitious for the available budget, so the pool of candidate stones becomes reasonably small just by searching on budget/carat/color/clarity.

An accurate light performance base search/sorting system, if one can be devised, would definitely be a huge benefit to the consumer. In the meantime, PS prosumers are willing to wade through large numbers of online diamonds on behalf of a buyer, and make relative/absolute assessments based on whatever tools are offered by the vendor. It may be some time until tools become available to help the novice buyer make a decision on their own. In the meantime, I hope some better tools can be offered that will make the work of online support forums (like PS) easier...

 

[Rockdiamond]

I understand the cost benefits (for capital equipment and labor) of "quick and simple", but is it really a "win" when ~90% of the fancy cut inventory is dismissed by online consumers as "mushy" (and when, as you stated previously, return rates for fancies are "astronomical")?

This is an integral part of my passion in these discussions.
The "big boys" are really not in the diamond business. They're in the internet sales business. To them, it's all fungible.
One stone is exactly the same as the next, as long as it's sold. They could just as easily be selling toasters.
Compare this with a more traditional method of being a diamond dealer. A dealer knows how to buy and sell diamonds based on their virtues- because he or she has an understanding of diamonds, and how and why people love them.
When discussions turn to quantizing diamond based on numbers, I see it as reinforcing the first business model. Who needs a dealer if you can just figure it all out based on a score.
I believe deeply that it's the human element that makes this a special business.

Does it really have capability to properly portray the full character of any type of diamond? You are very familiar with a "pinfire"/"crushed ice" style of faceting whose attractiveness you often praise on PS, but which the majority of PS members never recommend to potential buyers. Can a ViBox video accurately convey the way such a diamond appears in person? If so, are there any examples?

Well, I invested many thousands of dollars buying a DiBox, and we ended up not using it.
So, my feeling is no, as good as Vibox is, and it's amazing- it can't properly convey what a diamond looks like in person.

 

[drk14]

When discussions turn to quantizing diamond based on numbers, I see it as reinforcing the first business model. Who needs a dealer if you can just figure it all out based on a score.
I believe deeply that it's the human element that makes this a special business.

David,
Your latest post provides some good insight into your point of view and concerns. Having thought a bit about what you wrote, I wanted to pose the following questions to you:

Wouldn't improved online evaluation tools for fancy cuts on the internet have the potential drive up the overall demand for fancies, which would presumably also benefit traditional diamond dealers who specialize in fancy cuts?

Furthermore, if you are a traditional, "human elements" dealer, but don't have a store front, wouldn't most of your leads be from the internet? And if this is the case, wouldn't improved online evaluation tools for fancies also help drive traffic your way? Conversely, if some kind fancy cut online evaluation tool becomes a de facto standard for the "big boys" of the internet, won't you be at a disadvantage if you don't also offer the same tool?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the above.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks drk! I enjoy the intellectual stimulation ( given my limited intellect

Wouldn't improved online evaluation tools for fancy cuts on the internet have the potential drive up the overall demand for fancies, which would presumably also benefit traditional diamond dealers who specialize in fancy cuts?

No I do not believe so- for the most part I think people have an idea what they want going in. Most people buying a diamond today are thinking of a round solitaire.
But, OTOH- if a consumer buys into the numbers game, it's certainly possible they'd feel more comfortable with a guide for fancy shapes that was broadly accepted. ( like GIA )
So it might, but might not, and even then, I don't believe the effect would be pervasive.

Furthermore, if you are a traditional, "human elements" dealer, but don't have a store front, wouldn't most of your leads be from the internet? And if this is the case, wouldn't improved online evaluation tools for fancies also help drive traffic your way? Conversely, if some kind fancy cut online evaluation tool becomes a de facto standard for the "big boys" of the internet, won't you be at a disadvantage if you don't also offer the same tool?

Interesting question.
We do get plenty of people visiting- but only after they've found us online- we don't have a street level storefront.
My methods are different than pretty much every other seller.
I write actual things about actual diamonds. My pics are not fancy, but as low tech as they may be, they convey the emotion I seek to express to many observers.
Think of this from the other end....buying an inventory of saleable diamonds.
Say a dealer who finds their clients online want to buy round diamonds for inventory.
Smartest move is to not even look at the diamond, just plug it into HCA.
Of course not really- but the point is, if there's a numerical method of saying which diamond is better, the diamond buyer becomes just a number counter....
Another point- in a market as large as the jewelry market, specialization is key. If all the "big boys' are using a given tool, or set of tools, we're back to a fungible widget.
Who needs eyes?

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I have personally never met a diamond dealer that bought inventory solely on the basis of any tools -be they HCA, facetware, diamcalc,images, or lab reports - without looking at the diamonds and satisfying themselves that the diamond is everything they need it to be. Good tools just make their buying process much more efficient by eliminating the vast majority of stones that are not going to be of interest to them. They are then able to focus their efforts on a pool of likely candidates, without wasting time inspecting non-candidates or missing out on potential candidates.

Yes, everybody is a diamond dealer today if they can build a website and offer virtual inventory. (not sure if that is who the "big boys" are supposed to be. But they're not buyers. Yet , even if they are only marketers they (and their customers) benefit by deploying tools that can provide more information to help sort through their listings efficiently.

I can't see how anyone could argue the point that better tools would not mean more remote sales of fancies and therefore more business for anyone learning to use those tools effectively.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hey Bryan!
Even if you use reflectors as part of your buying process, it would seem to me that when you're buying fancy shapes in person you would not stop to look at reflector images until you'd gone over the actual goods first to pick the ones you liked.
When I'm looking through a large group of goods, I would first eliminate by factors like excessive depth, or fluorescence ( in the case of yellows)
Even then, I try to look at every stone. Even the ones I would not consider based on numbers or FL.
Sometimes you get surprises.
An emerald cut with 45% depth that knocks your toupee off. That sort of thing.

I can't see how anyone could argue the point that better tools would not mean more remote sales of fancies and therefore more business for anyone learning to use those tools effectively.

I don't disagree with this. Just maybe about how large an effect.
We can see the effects of it in the success of a few brands of diamonds- but this is very boutique - a minuscule percentage of the overall market.

I love debating with you because you're a diamond guy- not many of us left. Plus the fact we cut our teeth in different places, with different teachers gives us good fodder for lively debate.
My position in a discussion like this is based on a desire to educate consumers that there does exist a different way to look at diamonds.


BTW- "Big Boys" = companies that don't invest in diamonds for inventory- one of the many companies that use a business model that is based on not owning any diamonds until they sell on the site.
To be clear, I do not count WF as a "big boy" - but only in that colloquial sense. You guys are pretty big Definitely one of the nicest diamond sites out there.

 

[OoohShiny]

This thread is a great discussion, thanks for everyone's input

FWIW, one of the main reasons I bought a branded stone online was because of the ability to have the tools for assessment (by us mere mortals with sadly little/zero experience) at hand, rather than run the risk of being sold a dud by a sales/marketing expert with a smooth and verbose patter!

Likewise, it was a MRB because the assessment tools existed - if appropriate tools existed for fancies, I would definitely consider a purchase online in the future!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

This thread is a great discussion, thanks for everyone's input

FWIW, one of the main reasons I bought a branded stone online was because of the ability to have the tools for assessment (by us mere mortals with sadly little/zero experience) at hand, rather than run the risk of being sold a dud by a sales/marketing expert with a smooth and verbose patter!

Likewise, it was a MRB because the assessment tools existed - if appropriate tools existed for fancies, I would definitely consider a purchase online in the future!

If it pleases the court, I hereby submit OoohShiny's testimony above as evidence supporting my case.

 

[denverappraiser]

Say a dealer who finds their clients online want to buy round diamonds for inventory.

A dealer who SELLS based on things like reflector images, photomicrographs, HCA scores, and cert data, would be wise to buy using those same criteria. As Bryan points out, a dealer who plans on differentiating themselves and their goods from others who are doing the same thing, better look at them too or they will quickly find themselves skunked by others who do.

 

[Serg]

True in principle, but in many real cases (on PS), the customer has wants that are too ambitious for the available budget, so the pool of candidate stones becomes reasonably small just by searching on budget/carat/color/clarity.
..

DRK,
lets check it practically

for example I want select Cushion 0.5-1.5ct , Smart Clarity/Color choice
it is not wise to demand more strict selection ( we may discuss it separately Why)

see PS search results. what I have to do next to select 10 most promised diamonds for side by side comparison from 1000 in PS list? select by Brand? is best choice that you ( industry) may suggest now for interested consumer in original choice?

in same time:
1)PS has very limited database for fancy cuts
2) There are many other fancy cuts

 

[OoohShiny]

A dealer who SELLS based on things like reflector images, photomicrographs, HCA scores, and cert data, would be wise to buy using those same criteria. As Bryan points out, a dealer who plans on differentiating themselves and their goods from others who are doing the same thing, better look at them too or they will quickly find themselves skunked by others who do.

Would a fair summary of this be "Know thine enemy"? lol