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Has anyone had issues with Brian Gavin diamonds? Whiteflash

H

Henry Thomas

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2017
Messages
41
I have been comparing there with a comparable Whiteflash diamond.

And essentially the sales person is now trying to imply that Whiteflash is lying about the quality of their stone because they don't engrave it with the ACA logo.

"To me that means they can put any stone into their inventory and guise it as an ACA"
"If there is no branding on the stone then any stone can make it into their collection"

Just curious now what that means with WF given the purchase amount as it makes me hesitant? Is it Brian Gavin being shady selling or is there an issue with Whiteflash?
 
Given both vendors post on here IIRC, I expect they will wish to see copies of your correspondence so they can investigate further.
 
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Am I safe to purchase with Whiteflash - thats what I care about more because if I am it is clearly a poor marketing tool and I don't want to purchase there then
 
Both are PS-recommended vendors and are safe to purchase from, but none of the PS-recommended vendors should participate in such practices, so both will want further investigation to take place. (As will we, the community.)

@Texas Leaguer should be along shortly.
 
You have answered my question so I will just purchase it from WF. Can you advise how to close/delete a thread now that this has been answered. I would prefer to just take down the thread as I don't want to get anyone in trouble.
 
Wow - that's super shady of someone to say! While I understand you wanting this thread deleted, I think it's important for that point to be clarified by WF and I think BG needs to speak to that representative if the statement is not 100% accurate (which I highly doubt is...).
 
You cannot delete the thread and shouldn't worry - such threads are useful in exposing problems, and both negative and positive feedback is encouraged because it allows a true picture of vendors to be understood and problems to be resolved.
 
ac117 said:
it's important for that point to be clarified by WF
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OPs allegation is more damaging to BGD than to WF, so it hopefully there will be an opportunity for BGD to investigate what happened and resolve the matter as they see fit.
 
Not all of WF's diamonds meet their strict criteria for ACA diamonds.
However, those that do meet their requirements have "A Cut Above" marked on the AGS Diamond Certificate along with the AGS number, diamond measurements, and other information specific to that diamond.
The AGS number is laser inscribed on the diamond so you know that the AGS Certificate is for that specific diamond.

To see the AGS Certificate for a particular ACA diamond, click on the "Diamond Certificate" button located under the diamond image.

Below are two links for the ACA 3.402 H VS 1 diamond I mentioned to you in your other thread; the first is a link to the diamond with the various images and specifications, the second is a link to that diamond's AGS Certificate with "A Cut Above" clearly marked on it.

The AGS Certificate and the diamond with the corresponding AGS number is confirmation that the diamond is an ACA.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3850862.htm

http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104093751005-PGRH.PDF

In case you haven't seen this yet, its the ACA qualifications - this is from the WF website.

https://www.whiteflash.com/a-cut-above-diamonds-specifications-and-qualifications/
 
drk14 said:
OPs allegation is more damaging to BGD than to WF, so it hopefully there will be an opportunity for BGD to investigate what happened and resolve the matter as they see fit.
Click to expand...

Yup, that it is. Haven't had this type of issue crop up in my dealings with BGD (even when I had advised Lesley that I was looking at other options, including from the company that they had formerly been affiliated with prior to starting BGD).
 
december-fire said:
Not all of WF's diamonds meet their strict criteria for ACA diamonds.
However, those that do meet their requirements have "A Cut Above" marked on the AGS Diamond Certificate along with the AGS number, diamond measurements, and other information specific to that diamond.
The AGS number is laser inscribed on the diamond so you know that the AGS Certificate is for that specific diamond.

To see the AGS Certificate for a particular ACA diamond, click on the "Diamond Certificate" button located under the diamond image.

Below are two links for the ACA 3.402 H VS 1 diamond I mentioned to you in your other thread; the first is a link to the diamond with the various images and specifications, the second is a link to that diamond's AGS Certificate with "A Cut Above" clearly marked on it.

The AGS Certificate and the diamond with the corresponding AGS number is confirmation that the diamond is an ACA.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3850862.htm

http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104093751005-PGRH.PDF

In case you haven't seen this yet, its the ACA qualifications - this is from the WF website.

https://www.whiteflash.com/a-cut-above-diamonds-specifications-and-qualifications/
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information - I did look at that stone and ended up purchasing one quite similar
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3850865.htm
Looking forward for it to arrive!
 
My apologies! When I took a look earlier for ACAs, I forgot that I had previously changed the search criteria to select ACAs that had table percentages towards the smaller-size of the criteria (just a personal preference). So the diamond you choose didn't appear. Opps!

The one you purchased will be amazing! :love: :love: :love:

Please come back to post photos in the Show Me the Bling section.

You choose a gorgeous diamond! :dance:
 
drk14 said:
OPs allegation is more damaging to BGD than to WF, so it hopefully there will be an opportunity for BGD to investigate what happened and resolve the matter as they see fit.
Click to expand...
I couldn't remember if BGD has an 'official' user on here, and if so, who it is :lol:
 
Congrats on your purchase, the diamond looks beautiful. Post pics when you get it!

I don't think that you should feel bad about starting this thread, I think that you just wanted to ask others about opinions regarding two vendors that you were considering and which are frequently discussed here...

Now, not to play devil's advocate here, but can someone actually share (if they know) when WF stopped branding their actual stones, besides adding a label to the certificate only? Before I purchased my diamond, I was looking at pre-loved options and one of them was an ACA stone that had the "A CUT ABOVE" logo inscribed. That particular listing is long gone, but I was able to find an old ACA certificate, showing that ACA stones were laser engraved. Sample here: IMG_5819.JPG

I have purchased multiple times from BGD, so there is obviously some bias, nonetheless, in my many discussions with multiple reps, I have never heard them state anything negative about a competitor. My personal take is that the rep simply wanted to state that BGD stones are laser inscribed, indicating that it makes them somewhat "unique" and part of their "signature approved" inventory. I think that BGD operates more as a "boutique" where each stone gets individually selected by Brian Gavin and engraving each stone is their way of showing it. We all know that engraving can be polished out, yet that does't stop other vendors from doing it as well - GOG also inscribes their AVR & AVC stones. Another note, this stone for example is an ACA stone on co-consignment, but looking at the certificate, no one would know that: https://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond...S-F-VS2-diamond-stock-16003-cert-104083212010 It is still a beautiful diamond, but the presumably newer certificate, has washed the brand away and some people pay for the brand.

Do I think that WF (and other alike) diamond are beautiful and comparable - absolutely! When new members look for advice here, I have personally recommended both (and other) vendors. Choosing from one of the top H&A super-ideal diamond vendors is a difficult task as you would be picking the best from the best. At the end of the day, everyone decides what is most important to them - the price tag, the particular diamond specs, or the "brand"/vendor for many and different reasons.
 
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SimoneDi said:
Another note, this stone for example is an ACA stone on co-consignment, but looking at the certificate, no one would know that: https://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond...S-F-VS2-diamond-stock-16003-cert-104083212010 It is still a beautiful diamond, but the presumably newer certificate, has washed the brand away and some people pay for the brand.
Click to expand...

@SimoneDi, I'm guessing that you think this is an ACA because of the dual computer generated ASETs on the report?

This seems to be something that only WF seem to pay for compared to competitors like BGD who just get the ASET for a crown up view of the arrows. I haven't seen many other AGS graded stones which have the dual ASETs at the bottom of the report.
 
bmfang said:
@SimoneDi, I'm guessing that you think this is an ACA because of the dual computer generated ASETs on the report?

This seems to be something that only WF seem to pay for compared to competitors like BGD who just get the ASET for a crown up view of the arrows. I haven't seen many other AGS graded stones which have the dual ASETs at the bottom of the report.
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Good observation, but no, I know that it is a WF stone because the owner stated so in her LT listing: https://loupetroop.com/listings/loose-stones-diamond/1-dot-58-f-vs2-aca-h-and-a-super-ideal-diamond
 
Aha! This is what I for not trawling through LT! :D
 
I can speak to the Whiteflash inscription/branding policy but the question of the professionalism of the sales associate's commentary is something that would need to be taken up with the other vendor.

Over our 17 years in business there have been changes to our logo, to options for lab reporting, and to our policy of inscription. Initially we inscribed the logo with the 'swoosh' (SimoneDi photo above). It was placed on every A CUT ABOVE diamond as a way to distinguish it as our branded super ideal. Years later, we dropped the swoosh and adopted the easier to read A CUT ABOVE style logo in all caps, but continued to inscribe both cert number and logo. A few years ago AGSL introduced their 'proprietary' report, which in our case correlates all the details of the diamond with our A CUT ABOVE brand. At that point there was no good reason to continue adding the additional inscription to the diamond itself. The AGS inscription on the diamond connects that diamond to the branded proprietary cert, and serves as a unique identifier for the customer to visually verify any time it is needed.

We also transitioned a few years ago to the dual light map format of the platinum cert as it provides an additional lab verification of the hearts pattern that we provide photos of.

As December-fire pointed out and linked to, we publish the entire list of qualifications and specifications for the A CUT ABOVE brand so that customers can independently verify through lab report, light performance imagery, or outside experts that their diamond meets all representations of the brand.
 
More often than people think, this type of comment backfires against the commenter and clients come to report it directly to the party spoken against. Most people recognize a poor attempt to steal a sale without having to compete on the merits of the diamonds in question. (As our OP clearly did.)

I used to call the offending party to attempt to stop the silliness, but I soon realized that letting them continue to drive traffic my way was a better solution. I particularly enjoy it when people tell me a new funny reason that they came to me to buy.

I know and respect both of these houses mentioned above. I suspect that if the allegation is verified to be happening rather than being the result of a misunderstanding, that it will instantly stop.

Wink
 
Texas Leaguer said:
I can speak to the Whiteflash inscription/branding policy but the question of the professionalism of the sales associate's commentary is something that would need to be taken up with the other vendor.

Over our 17 years in business there have been changes to our logo, to options for lab reporting, and to our policy of inscription. Initially we inscribed the logo with the 'swoosh' (SimoneDi photo above). It was placed on every A CUT ABOVE diamond as a way to distinguish it as our branded super ideal. Years later, we dropped the swoosh and adopted the easier to read A CUT ABOVE style logo in all caps, but continued to inscribe both cert number and logo. A few years ago AGSL introduced their 'proprietary' report, which in our case correlates all the details of the diamond with our A CUT ABOVE brand. At that point there was no good reason to continue adding the additional inscription to the diamond itself. The AGS inscription on the diamond connects that diamond to the branded proprietary cert, and serves as a unique identifier for the customer to visually verify any time it is needed.

We also transitioned a few years ago to the dual light map format of the platinum cert as it provides an additional lab verification of the hearts pattern that we provide photos of.

As December-fire pointed out and linked to, we publish the entire list of qualifications and specifications for the A CUT ABOVE brand so that customers can independently verify through lab report, light performance imagery, or outside experts that their diamond meets all representations of the brand.
Click to expand...

FWIW, one of the benefits to marking on the product, not just on the paperwork, comes up at replacement time in the case of an insured loss. Insurers are obligated to replace with ‘like kind and quality’ or words to that effect and, quite reasonably, they want to do that as cheaply as possible. Branded items can be tricky. If they can argue a ‘regular’ 000 meets this standard, they can probably get that for cheaper from their knockoff supplier. Even if the imitation stone is fantabulistic, it doesn’t come with some of the attributes of the ACA, like the tradeup program for example. Replacement jewelers are unlikely to notice this, and it’s not usually listed in the appraisal, but the company is required to meet or exceed the specs that are listed. If the appraisal includes a photomicrograph of your logo or a retired version of it on the girdle, that’s a tough one to meet with a knockoff. This issue applies to all branded diamonds, not just WFs.
 
Neil,
The inscription of the cert number serves that purpose. It ties back to the branded lab certificate.
In addition, whether or not the insured is in possession of the paperwork, that cert would still be searchable on the AGSL website. In the case of our brand, all specifications are fully published on the Whiteflash site. (the diamond detail page and all documentation and images remain permanently on the whiteflash website as well, searchable by cert number).

So, in case I am missing something, the insured can always document the full criteria for like kind and quality replacement.
 
Texas Leaguer said:
Neil,
The inscription of the cert number serves that purpose. It ties back to the branded lab certificate.
In addition, whether or not the insured is in possession of the paperwork, that cert would still be searchable on the AGSL website. In the case of our brand, all specifications are fully published on the Whiteflash site. (the diamond detail page and all documentation and images remain permanently on the whiteflash website as well, searchable by cert number).

So, in case I am missing something, the insured can always document the full criteria for like kind and quality replacement.
Click to expand...

@Texas Leaguer, I think the issue comes when it comes to selling an ACA on the secondary market. What happens if the stone is sent back by the seller to AGS to verify no damage and that the stone's characteristics remain the same? Does a new report get issued? Will it scrub the "new" report of the ACA branding on the proprietary report?

I've seen one listing referenced here on an earlier PS thread of a BGD stone that someone was considering which showed an earlier date for an AGS report on the BGD listing in mobile mode, but when one went to verify the report number on the AGS website, the same report number had a new grading date (which led me to surmise that the stone had been returned to BGD for an upgrade, the old report had a date that was a year and a bit earlier than the new one from memory).

The Loupe Troop listing that @SimoneDi referenced above, the report stored on the GOG site for it has scrubbed the ACA branding from the report (which would make sense as the consignment listing describes it now as an Ascendancy H&A stone [GOG's "branding"]) but if one were to verify the stone's AGS report number, the Whiteflash branding still remains on the web copy (for now).
 
Hey Texas Leaguer, isn't Brian Gavin of BGD the inventor of your ACA product?
 
WillyDiamond said:
Hey Texas Leaguer, isn't Brian Gavin of BGD the inventor of your ACA product?
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Hey Willy,
Brian Gavin was heavily involved in the initial development and marketing of our brand. A CUT ABOVE® is not a patented product, so there really is no ‘inventor’ per se. The registered trademark is owned by Whiteflash Inc. Brian Gavin was an employee of Whiteflash and does not have ownership interest in the company. The goal was to offer a product to compete with Hearts on Fire by providing greater value and transparency (proof of performance), making it affordable to more folks while equaling or exceeding HOF cut quality.
It is more accurate to think of A CUT ABOVE® as an open source product, manufactured to very a specific quality target with extremely tight tolerances. The strength of the A CUT ABOVE® brand is that it is, by all industry standards, a diamond with light performance at the very top of the scale. The list of qualifications and requirements has grown significantly since initial introduction of the brand. As such, it is very difficult to produce, and therefore very challenging to consistently offer deep in-stock inventories to the consumer market.

This is one reason we have no hesitation publishing our full list of technical specifications. Very few companies are capable or willing to take cut quality and light performance to this level, and to invest in keeping large inventories in-house. The other reason we are transparent about our brand attributes is because we think that is what modern consumers expect from merchants today.

Because our products are of a quality that come with very high expectations on the part of our customers, it is necessary for us to have logistical capabilities and quality control methods that give us the greatest probability of meeting those expectations on a consistent basis. That is why in 2010 we devoted ourselves to gaining ISO 9000 certification and maintaining it. It has been crucial not only to the quality control of our diamond inventory, but also in our jewelry operations. Part of the ISO requirement is to formally document non-conformities in our products or processes, and to take concrete and effective steps towards continual improvement.

Although we are by no means perfect, it is hard for me to see how we could have properly managed our growth of the past several years (and maintained our reputation) without having the ISO framework in place.

At the risk of making this response sound too promotional, I would also say that having developed and retained a highly skilled and experienced team is also a big part of what it takes to successfully operate a business as unique as ours. I am so proud of my co-workers for the enthusiasm and devotion to the customer experience that they bring to work every day. The range of talents and the overall character of our ‘human resources” is another reason that it is difficult for other companies to replicate what we do.
 
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Great answer!
Thanks so much.
 
Swoosh!!
Love it.
I would like to point out that pricescope has a list of featured sponsors. And only one of the vendors in question is on that list.
https://www.pricescope.com/featured-sponsors

Also, only one of those vendors provides a skilled representative (Bryan) to provide insight into how the company does business. The company that is not a sponsor does not post here, rather depending on others to recommend them.
Just from a practical standpoint, that shows a lot more commitment on the part of the company that does actually sponsor this forum.
I will say that PS mgmt is very generous even allowing discussion of non paying vendors. It makes this place extra special
 
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