Handmade vs. CAD

[stone4soph]

I’m wondering if this is normal? We have received two quotes for a simple platinum solitaire (no pave) from two popular pricescope vendors. They are essentially the exact same ring, except one would be made by computer/CAD and the other handmade. The CAD is quoted at $1800 and the handmade is quoted at $1600. Does this make any sense—I thought handmade rings were far more $$ than CAD? Is this an obvious choice to go with the handmade? What are the differences—both visual and physical?

 

[slg47]

usually handmade costs more than CAD. I would browse both vendors websites to see pictures of what similar rings look like. handmade can have more fluid lines but the downside is that it may take longer (check with vendor) and you may not be able to approve final design

 

[Lula]

Some vendors use the term hand-made when they are referring to crafting the setting for a specific stone, rather than using a stock setting that is simply ordered based on the weight and/or diameter of the stone. You'll want to clarify with the vendor if they are referring to a truly handmade setting, i.e., the metal is hand-forged, or whether they are referring to a CAD-Cast fabrication that is hand-finished. They may also use a combination of forging and CAD-Cast depending on the design.

 

[kelpie]

I would read this post...depends on how the vendor defines handmade and also what the final piece weighs. I think some jewelers describe their pieces as handmade meaning hand carved from wax and finished by hand but in my mind handmade can only mean forged and fabricated using raw materials and tools so make sure you understand the technique they plan to use.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/handmade-and-cast-and-diestruck-oh-my.52912/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/handmade-and-cast-and-diestruck-oh-my.52912/[/URL]

 

[J_Rock]

Based on some some quotes I have received from some of the frequently mentioned vendors, pave labor seems the be the deciding variable in cost. I bet that if you were to have elaborate pave in your design, the handmade quote would be about 2k more than the cast. Since there is no pave, the cost between the two is negligible.

 

[mrssalvo]

it would depend on the vendors. I remember a few years ago folks getting quotes from cad vendors and Leon who's rings are handmade and their were times when Leon's pricing came in lower. I agree that labor costs are included and chances are a handmade ring with lost of pave may cost more than a cast one.

 

[stone4soph]

Thanks. The handmade setting is Leon Mege, if that is helpful. Generally, I’m looking for a simple, elegant, and fluid design. Would I be more likely to achieve this with a handmade setting? Or for a plain shank and head, would both rings looks pretty much identical?

 

[J_Rock]

In your case, I think you cant go wrong with CAD. Since you are using all metal, there isnt much of an upside to going handmade, but there is the chance that the handmade may not be as "perfect" as the cast. I would go hand-made if I was going for intricate pave with exquisite attention to detail.

 

[Lula]

Have you considered Mark Morrell? His rings are handmade (I believe) and he really excels in the "fluid" look you are seeking.

 

[cookies]

In your case, I think you cant go wrong with CAD. Since you are using all metal, there isnt much of an upside to going handmade, but there is the chance that the handmade may not be as "perfect" as the cast. I would go hand-made if I was going for intricate pave with exquisite attention to detail.

I guess I am weird, but to me, CAD/cast usually looks too perfect and lacks character, and when the cast is not perfect, the flaw stands out quite a bit.

 

[Michael_E]

CAD means "Computer Aided Design" and is basically modeling software for doing the design phase on a piece. If you are going to have the piece cast and casting is a good option for that piece, then you can use the CAD model to make a mold and cast the piece. If the piece is better done with some parts cast and some parts hand made, then the model can be used for those parts that will be cast. If the piece is best done with all hand made parts, then the CAD model is helpful to show everyone what that piece will look like when finished and help to guide the craftsperson so that the end result is a close match to the rendered CAD model.

CAD is just a modeling medium and you can use it in many ways. The decision about whether to make a piece by hand or from the model depends speed, complexity and the desired end result for a particular design. It is not always less expensive to make a piece via casting using a CAD model and is often much faster to just make a piece from bar and wire stock, than going through the motions of making a CAD model, making a mold, casting the piece and then finishing it. With hand fabrication on simpler pieces, you just build it once and you're done, no messing around with all the other stuff related to modeling, casting and finishing. Platinum is particularly suited to hand fabrication as it works nicely, produces a stronger end product than casting and requires much less finishing work than a cast platinum piece. If you're having a relatively simple platinum piece made, it SHOULD be cheaper having it hand made than modeled in CAD and cast. As the complexity goes up the cost benefit in using hand fabrication techniques drops off and CAD generated models can become much less expensive, (though the quality of many hand made pieces still remains higher....depending on the design of course).

 

[tyty333]

I would go with the handmade if that quote was from leon. Be sure to look at his work and do a search on PS to make sure
you can work with him.

 

[iota15]

Without a doubt - since you want something simple, fluid AND it's cheaper, I would work with Leon. There's no way I would have a CAD over a Leon.

Is the solitaire you are looking for something Leon's done in the past?

 

[slg47]

i would go with the Leon if you want something similar to what he has already done. he prefers to work in a particular aesthetic and if that is what you are going for, then he would be a good choice.

 

[texaskj]

Which would be more bullet proof over the long run? (Assuming the same platinum mixture and still plain and simple.)

 

[mrssalvo]

I would take a Leon over a cast ring if he had a setting I wanted. He knows how to make rings flow and curve in ways that many cast rings just don't do. But, if you are going for a Tiffany replica or something then I'd probably go with a vendor who's got that setting mastered.

 

[CharmyPoo]

To me, no brainer .. if Leon is cheaper .. I would get the Leon.

 

[ericad]

As a vendor who uses CAD/Cast, I will say that there's a considerable amount of time spent in creating CAD renderings for each new center stone, even for existing designs, plus time spent corresponding with the customer regarding the design and renderings, photographing the finished piece, etc. This adds value for the customers who really want to see what their ring will look like for their own center stone, to get a sense of the proportions, etc., and to have the opportunity to make little tweaks to the design.

For example, if I were quoting a simple delicate platinum solitaire setting (disclosure: I don't know if we're the vendor in question!), our price would be a bit higher than your handmade quote, but it would include overnight insured shipping, custom CAD renderings, etc.

Leon does amazing and beautiful work, so it's just a matter of what is important to you. If that extra $200 includes CAD renderings and offers you peace of mind that you've "seen" what your finished ring will look like for your center stone (and that's important to you), then it's money well spent. If you don't need that and feel very confident that you'll love the result of the handmade piece, then the savings make it a more attractive option.

My point is that it's not black and white that CAD/Cast will always be cheaper than handmade. Each piece is unique and requires a different amount of labor, metal weight, etc. and each vendor has different pricing models, so it really can vary from vendor to vendor. As long as you're in the same ballpark and within budget, the best advice I can give is to choose the vendor whose style, aesthetic, and quality most closely meets your needs and expectations.

Good luck!

 

[Gypsy]

Hmmm.

Here are some thoughts on the price difference.

It sounds like you probably picked a base design from Leon, he checked your stone size and qouted you based on that. You will send your diamond in. He will not have much, if any, contact with you. He'll either sit down and make it himself, or hand it off to someone on his bench to complete. And you will get your completed ring within the qouted lead time. I'm not sure if his qoutes include shipping/insurance or anything.

Regarding CAD work. If the design is not in the standard catalog (like if you sent a pic of a Leon design to the CAD vendor) then the CAD vendor will have to build that design. So you will pay more because you are paying for the design, not just for the ring.

I would also ask each vendor what the warranty on the manufacture is for each ring. And whether you will have to pay shipping for warranty claims. This might be something built into the cost model.

In some cases, you will find a similar design at Leon and a place that does CAD. Leon's classic solitaire and the BGD Grace for example are very similar. The BGD grace in platinum is 1500, I think Leon qoutes at 1600 for it. But that's because it's BGD standard catalog. But if you were the FIRST person ordering the Grace you might pay 1700 for it, because it would be a new design for BGD. In that case Leon's pricing would be lower.

You can always just ASK the CAD vendor for their pricing break down. It would probably answer your questions for you.

As for who you should chose. Get all the information you need, then make an informed decision.

Best of luck.

 

[stone4soph]

Thank you very much to everyone who replied. As many of you assumed, Leon’s quote is based off of one of his designs that I wouldn’t wish to change. His quote does not include shipping, while the other one does. The CAD vendor is working off of an existing design and modifying it a bit (admittedly to look like the Leon setting). One added complication (though not too big of a deal) is that we bought our stone from the vendor.

Again, thanks for all the information, and particularly the point about warranty—something I hadn’t even thought of!

 

[Chris-at-ERD]

CAD vs Hand Forged....you decide....

There are many vendors on PS that utlize CAD for custom pieces, while there are many talented jewelers that have the ability to create a hand forged piece completely by hand ( I don't know this to be fact ) and yes LM executes this gracefully..this is not to say that CAD does not have the same level of quality or talent as well, for example...CAD design is rendered, specs are made available, plastic resin is printed and the process begins. The levels involved in this execution as well as craftsmanship will determine the outcome of the piece...( ex) such as CAD designers, jewelers, setters, and polishers, their experience and attention to detail will ultimately determine the finishing of the piece.

Hope this helps.

 

[Victor Canera]

The difference between the two techniques depends on their execution. I've seen some wax based jewelry that looks fantastic. You won't get that last 10-20% of detail with a purely hand forged piece though. Hand forging also has some other benefits including a denser metal (if a couple of extra steps are taken). Another huge one is that you actually get a one of a kind design made for you. Even if a jeweler was to go back and try to replicate a design that he made before it won't be a 1:1 copy. With wax work, you just press a button (or mold) and you have the exact same piece again. With hand forged jewelry parts like underneath a basket and other areas will be clean and polished, with wax\casting it won't. With that said, hand forging jewelry takes a lot of time and would in general be more expensive than a wax based design.

Good luck.

 

[Gypsy]

Just an FYI some vendors will use both CAD and handmade hybrids if the designs warrant it-- some jewelers have access to multiple benches or their benches are capable of many difference skills. My last two pieces were made by BGD. My Aurora Band was made of both cast and hand made parts and it was hand finished. My necklace was all bezeled by hand. My Engagement Ring by Ocean Pearlman through HPD has a handmade halo (then and now) and gallery wires, but my shank was cast. Sometimes it's not one or the other. My pendant was CAD and CAST but all the bezels were hand finished.

Some jewelers only do things one way (Leon) others have various different capabilities and will use what is best for the execution of the actual design in front of them. Personally, I prefer the second unless there is a specific reason for going with method over the other. I like one stop shopping though. That said, my engagement ring is being re-done by an Leon trained gentlemen named Steven-- all handmade re-work revising my halo, and slimming my shank down.

There is a reason why there are so many different vendors. It's like a tool kit. You need the right tool for the job. One size doesn't fit all.

 

[Chris-at-ERD]

Greetings Gypsy, you are spot on, some vendors have the choice and luxury of choosing various skilled benches that utilize their talents based on the specific piece such as the ability to assemble a casted shank and with plate and pulling wire to create a hand made piece. This manufacturing process has been utlized for many years with flawless results so there are many choices available to the consumer.

 

[Gypsy]

Greetings Gypsy, you are spot on, some vendors have the choice and luxury of choosing various skilled benches that utilize their talents based on the specific piece such as the ability to assemble a casted shank and with plate and pulling wire to create a hand made piece. This manufacturing process has been utlized for many years with flawless results so there are many choices available to the consumer.

Thanks Chris. I think, IMO, that the discussion of 'which is better' handmade or cast... assuming both are top line quality-- is sometimes too black and white on here.

For me it's like asking a carpenter whether he prefers a hammer or a nail gun. They both have their places. Just cause one has been used for centuries and another is relatively new and utilizes technology doesn't make one 'better' than the other. It depends on the task. In jewelry design, I think the method of construction depends on the piece.

As a customer, and one that does a pretty decent number of custom pieces, I like having the choice of different construction methods and hybrids as well.

 

[Victor Canera]

Choice at the end of the day is a very positive thing for the consumer. Different techniques can be used for different designs, tastes, price points etc.

The OP asked about the visual \ physical difference between the two; you won't see as much of a notable difference on an extremely plain design, although you will lose the slightly better metal density of hand forging. If we had a plain metal band for example there won't be much of a difference. As you progress in complexity to an engagement ring for example requiring a center basket, that has more parts. the advantages of hand forging starts becoming more apparent. As you progress even more in complexity, like adding a cathedral shank, channel opening for stones etc. you'll see more and more of a gap opening up between casting and cast free designs.
The two manufacturing styles also have completely different business models. With hand forging, you're limited to making maybe 2 rings a week. With wax\cad\cam casting the amount of production you can produce is almost limitless, especially considering the skill set of the manufacturer doesn't need to be very high to do it. Historically wax based manufacturing has allowed manufacturers to raise their production level but it's lowered their quality level. You can't have it both ways unfortunately. I think it's not a coincidence that vintage jewelry made in the 1920s period are still around today. The platinum pieces from that period were hand forged and they're going to last a long time. Can we say that about jewelry that's being made today will be around in 80 years?

At the end of the day though I don't think it's about bragging rights but asking yourself what's important to you and Gypsy you're very right it's not a black and white comparison but one that depends on the project at hand.

Good luck.

 

[yssie]

Victor Canera|1300985258|2879027" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Choice at the end of the day is a very positive thing for the consumer. Different techniques can be used for different designs, tastes, price points etc.

The OP asked about the visual \ physical difference between the two; you won't see as much of a notable difference on an extremely plain design, although you will lose the slightly better metal density of hand forging. If we had a plain metal band for example there won't be much of a difference. As you progress in complexity to an engagement ring for example requiring a center basket, that has more parts. the advantages of hand forging starts becoming more apparent. As you progress even more in complexity, like adding a cathedral shank, channel opening for stones etc. you'll see more and more of a gap opening up between casting and cast free designs.
The two manufacturing styles also have completely different business models. With hand forging, you're limited to making maybe 2 rings a week. With wax\cad\cam casting the amount of production you can produce is almost limitless, especially considering the skill set of the manufacturer doesn't need to be very high to do it. Historically wax based manufacturing has allowed manufacturers to raise their production level but it's lowered their quality level. You can't have it both ways unfortunately. I think it's not a coincidence that vintage jewelry made in the 1920s period are still around today. The platinum pieces from that period were hand forged and they're going to last a long time. Can we say that about jewelry that's being made today will be around in 80 years?

At the end of the day though I don't think it's about bragging rights but asking yourself what's important to you and Gypsy you're very right it's not a black and white comparison but one that depends on the project at hand.

Good luck.

What about gold (18k, 14k), are there significant advantages (density/porosity/etc) to hand forging over casting/pouring?

Does it depend very much on alloy composition - so, would you be more likely to recommend one over the other if yellow gold, white gold?

 

[Victor Canera]

Victor Canera|1300985258|2879027" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Choice at the end of the day is a very positive thing for the consumer. Different techniques can be used for different designs, tastes, price points etc.

The OP asked about the visual \ physical difference between the two; you won't see as much of a notable difference on an extremely plain design, although you will lose the slightly better metal density of hand forging. If we had a plain metal band for example there won't be much of a difference. As you progress in complexity to an engagement ring for example requiring a center basket, that has more parts. the advantages of hand forging starts becoming more apparent. As you progress even more in complexity, like adding a cathedral shank, channel opening for stones etc. you'll see more and more of a gap opening up between casting and cast free designs.
The two manufacturing styles also have completely different business models. With hand forging, you're limited to making maybe 2 rings a week. With wax\cad\cam casting the amount of production you can produce is almost limitless, especially considering the skill set of the manufacturer doesn't need to be very high to do it. Historically wax based manufacturing has allowed manufacturers to raise their production level but it's lowered their quality level. You can't have it both ways unfortunately. I think it's not a coincidence that vintage jewelry made in the 1920s period are still around today. The platinum pieces from that period were hand forged and they're going to last a long time. Can we say that about jewelry that's being made today will be around in 80 years?

At the end of the day though I don't think it's about bragging rights but asking yourself what's important to you and Gypsy you're very right it's not a black and white comparison but one that depends on the project at hand.

Good luck.

What about gold (18k, 14k), are there significant advantages (density/porosity/etc) to hand forging over casting/pouring?

Does it depend very much on alloy composition - so, would you be more likely to recommend one over the other if yellow gold, white gold?

The hardness can be effected by alloy composition and mixture of platinum with other materials or gold with other alloys. The main density advantage from hand forging is from the hammering of the metal plates to pack the molecules tightly together before work is begun on the piece. The thing is, hand forged jewelry is made probably 99% of the time in Platinum. If somebody tells you a gold piece is hand made you should investigate that a bit more... There are many reasons for this. Since hand forging involves assembling many different parts and soldering them together, with gold you will see the soldering marks on the finished piece because there is no perfect way to match solder color to the ring. I personally don't like this. Since Platinum is one color, this won't happen. Platinum is malleable to work with and lends itself nicely to bending, shaping etc. Platinum also doesn't wear away over time like gold does. Lots of good reasons and because of them the finished product comes out nicer with Platinum.
The best combo to hand forge in white gold would be with a Palladium mixture. You might come accross a hand forged piece with this mixture but they're rare.

 

[yssie]

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Victor Canera|1300985258|2879027" data-source="" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Choice at the end of the day is a very positive thing for the consumer. Different techniques can be used for different designs, tastes, price points etc.

The OP asked about the visual \ physical difference between the two; you won't see as much of a notable difference on an extremely plain design, although you will lose the slightly better metal density of hand forging. If we had a plain metal band for example there won't be much of a difference. As you progress in complexity to an engagement ring for example requiring a center basket, that has more parts. the advantages of hand forging starts becoming more apparent. As you progress even more in complexity, like adding a cathedral shank, channel opening for stones etc. you'll see more and more of a gap opening up between casting and cast free designs.
The two manufacturing styles also have completely different business models. With hand forging, you're limited to making maybe 2 rings a week. With wax\cad\cam casting the amount of production you can produce is almost limitless, especially considering the skill set of the manufacturer doesn't need to be very high to do it. Historically wax based manufacturing has allowed manufacturers to raise their production level but it's lowered their quality level. You can't have it both ways unfortunately. I think it's not a coincidence that vintage jewelry made in the 1920s period are still around today. The platinum pieces from that period were hand forged and they're going to last a long time. Can we say that about jewelry that's being made today will be around in 80 years?

At the end of the day though I don't think it's about bragging rights but asking yourself what's important to you and Gypsy you're very right it's not a black and white comparison but one that depends on the project at hand.

Good luck.

What about gold (18k, 14k), are there significant advantages (density/porosity/etc) to hand forging over casting/pouring?

Does it depend very much on alloy composition - so, would you be more likely to recommend one over the other if yellow gold, white gold?

The hardness can be effected by alloy composition and mixture of platinum with other materials or gold with other alloys. The main density advantage from hand forging is from the hammering of the metal plates to pack the molecules tightly together before work is begun on the piece. The thing is, hand forged jewelry is made probably 99% of the time in Platinum. If somebody tells you a gold piece is hand made you should investigate that a bit more... There are many reasons for this. Since hand forging involves assembling many different parts and soldering them together, with gold you will see the soldering marks on the finished piece because there is no perfect way to match solder color to the ring. I personally don't like this. Since Platinum is one color, this won't happen. Platinum is malleable to work with and lends itself nicely to bending, shaping etc. Platinum also doesn't wear away over time like gold does. Lots of good reasons and because of them the finished product comes out nicer with Platinum.
The best combo to hand forge in white gold would be with a Palladium mixture. You might come accross a hand forged piece with this mixture but they're rare.

Hmm.. thanks for your detailed response.

I *love* the colour of my white gold ring (it's a nickel alloy, left it unplated, don't know the exact composition sadly but I'll call in to find out one of these days!) - I tried plat and actually didn't like the icy cold colour of the metal against my skin at all. But it doesn't sound like Ni-wg lends itself to handmade pieces, if I'm understanding what you're saying... visible solder marks would drive me batty!