H&A?

[belle]

Date: 9/16/2005 12:02:55 PM
Author: Bagpuss
I assume that thes ''near'' h&a stones would be a little less in price than if they were ''true'' h&a even though they have wonderful performance and excellent symmetry?

theoretically yes, but that''s why we need a standardization. what one might consider a ''true'' h&a might not really be so even though it could be marketed that way.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 9/16/2005 12:02:55 PM
Author: Bagpuss

I assume that thes 'near' h&a stones would be a little less in price than if they were 'true' h&a even though they have wonderful performance and excellent symmetry?

Bagpuss, yes. Mara's 1.6 J SI2 Expert Selection (some on PS call it 'the big J') is a great example of this. It would have been sold as a H&A in many places that don't examine and discriminate like the top PS vendors do. It was very close to 'true' by our standards but didn't quite meet every criteria on Brian's existing grading system - so it was sold in Expert Selection. There are many such diamonds in our ES - and like Strm pointed out in GOG stock. They may not have that ultimate pedigree of every single tiny nuance being in place, but not every person's taste runs to demanding such immaculate optical symmetry.

 

[Bagpuss]

Thanks for the explanations.

I think it''s important to be able to discriminate even at the top end selection. My thought was that a customer might want diamonds for a pendant or a pair of earrings and while still wanting well performing stones, isn''t looking for absolute perfection in every degree.

 

[Rhino]

Hella busy day ... haven''t been able to break away so just reading a touch before bookin out for the day and reading through this thread.

Date: 9/15/2005 10:53:11 PM
Author: strmrdr
In not rhino but here is an example:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/0_84ct_g_vs2_h%26a.htm

A very slightly shifted arrow shaft keeps it from true h&a.
You can also see it on the hearts view as an enlarged arrow head.

high performance, exellent symmetry, not true h&a

Excellent example strm. The stone is incredible but not true H&A. For that reason would not make top optical symmetry grade.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/15/2005 7:00:07 PM
Author: LAJennifer
Stones concert at Giants'' Stadium - I''m jealous!

Jenn... Words can not describe the energy present at Giant''s Stadium last night. I am still in awe of what I witnessed. In case you folks don''t know I was raised on bands like the Stones, The Beatles, Aerosmith, Zepp, Hendrix, Doors, U2, and many other founding fathers.

It''s only rock and roll ... BUT I LIKE IT! LIKE IT! YES I DO!

 

[Bagpuss]

In the words of Status Quo

''I like it, I like it, I like it, I like it, I li..li...li...like it, li..li...li..like it, here we go.......rocking all over the world!''

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/15/2005 10:47:51 PM
Author: Matatora

the terms Hearts and Arrows and Ideal are getting tossed around alot,

Yes it is. At some of the more recent trade shows we see it tossed around quite a bit. Upon inspection, what many manufacturers are calling Hearts & Arrows I wouldn''t touch with a 10 foot pole. There needs to be a standard. I was hoping a standard was going to come into play in either the new AGS or GIA system but upon studying what I could about each system, they do discuss the element but neither will be considering it in the final grade. That is when GOG (particularly me) decided we would begin serious work on this since the labs weren''t addressing it. WF and our firm, has for years had an H&A standard and certain minimum criteria we both use in our purchasing decisions for optical symmetry.

I like the idea of discussing certain of these elements on the forum because of the other peer advice that can be gained from experts such as Garry, Paul, Mike Cowing, Bruce Harding etc. as long as the conversation doesn''t go over too many heads (including my own) cause if it can''t be communicated on a level the layman can understand ... some of the discussion may be for naught. Not only this but there are very brilliant minds here among the pro-sumers whose input I respect as much as some professionals whose advice I would like input on as well. Strmrdr and Valeria are 2 students of gemology who come to mind and belle is a quick study too. Please forgive if all the names don''t come to mind but you know who you are.

Cya later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Bagpuss]

Quote ''.....as long as the conversation doesn''t go over too many heads (including my own) cause if it can''t be communicated on a level the layman can understand ... some of the discussion may be for naught.''

I''d second that!

I don''t mind your private discussions being as obtuse as you like, but please, when you''re talking to us mere mortals, please try and keep it at a level we can at least follow.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 9/16/2005 5:35:48 PM
Author: Rhino

Jenn... Words can not describe the energy present at Giant''s Stadium last night. I am still in awe of what I witnessed. In case you folks don''t know I was raised on bands like the Stones, The Beatles, Aerosmith, Zepp, Hendrix, Doors, U2, and many other founding fathers.

It''s only rock and roll ... BUT I LIKE IT! LIKE IT! YES I DO!

I can''t even imagine! Earilier this week, I saw Oasis at the Hollywood Bowl. Well they''re not the Stones, but nothing beats a good rock concert at the Bowl!

 

[Rhino]

Just tryin to catch up in this thread before hitting the hay... sorry I missed this Val.

Date: 9/15/2005 2:48:25 PM
Author: valeria101


On the side...
Out of curiosity, doesn't that particular I1 make a great candidate for clarity enhancement ? It just has one big blob inside after all.

Answer: YES, as long as there isn't too much strain within the diamond.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/15/2005 7:14:46 PM
Author: Bagpuss

Date: 9/15/2005 10:31:43 AM
Author: Rhino

Date: 9/14/2005 9:15:17 PM
Author: belle
h&a does mean heart and arrows. there are differing extremes of what one might consider a stone to be h&a

JohnQ and I were on the phone yesterday discussing this very thing. Once the new site is finished we''re going to be labeling all stones H&A, Near H&A and otherwise (perhaps NON H&A). We gotta talk more though cause a diamond can have superior optical symmetry yet not be *true* H&A AND still be a stone that someone considers extremely pleasing to their eyes. Both of us (WF and I... its scary how we think alike in many regards) have been thinking of developing a grade for this feature. While they are focusing on the H&A aspect, which I think is great, I feel it should not be limited to *only* H&A but to include all diamonds with which a cutter has taken his time to produce superior optical symmetry coupled with superior optics. I can post an example if you''re not completely getting me or would like clarification.

Fascinating stuff.

Quote '' ....a diamond can have superior optical symmetry yet not be *true* H&A AND still be a stone that somone considers extremely pleasing to their eyes. Both of us .....have been thinking of developing a grade for this feature.''

That I would love to see. Please post examples of stones in this category when you get back from rocking with ''The Stones''

When I get my work laptop I''ll give ya an example Bag as time allows.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/16/2005 6:39:37 PM
Author: Bagpuss
Quote ''.....as long as the conversation doesn''t go over too many heads (including my own) cause if it can''t be communicated on a level the layman can understand ... some of the discussion may be for naught.''

I''d second that!

I don''t mind your private discussions being as obtuse as you like, but please, when you''re talking to us mere mortals, please try and keep it at a level we can at least follow.

LOL... we are a lot alike Bag.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/16/2005 6:59:03 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 9/16/2005 5:35:48 PM
Author: Rhino

Jenn... Words can not describe the energy present at Giant''s Stadium last night. I am still in awe of what I witnessed. In case you folks don''t know I was raised on bands like the Stones, The Beatles, Aerosmith, Zepp, Hendrix, Doors, U2, and many other founding fathers.

It''s only rock and roll ... BUT I LIKE IT! LIKE IT! YES I DO!

I can''t even imagine! Earilier this week, I saw Oasis at the Hollywood Bowl. Well they''re not the Stones, but nothing beats a good rock concert at the Bowl!

You bet! btw ... I forgot, to my dismay Pink Floyd in that lineup! Shame on me.

Your post reminded me of an old album I had which I can not find for the life of me on CD. It was the Beatles concert they played at the Hollywood Bowl. I think it was around 65 and it was the very first live Beatles Album I can remember having. Hrm... I''ll have to google that.

Wow ... so how did you enjoy Oasis? I remember hearing some of their tunes but can''t recall names off the top of my head. Good show? I think I''m going to see Paul McCartney next week!

When I was a tyke in my teens one of my very best friends was friends with a ticket scalper. He would find out when the tix would go on sale here in NY at Madison Square Garden. We''d camp out the night before (they provided all the party *things* plus pay us cash for standing in line) ... we''d get the scalpers tix to sell and we generally always ended up within the first 10 rows of any concert we wanted.

Some of my favorite memories....

The Who on their first tour RIGHT AFTER Moon died. Sad but GREAT concert nonetheless.
Aerosmith ... Toys in the Attic
Pink Floyds last tour with main lineup ... Waters, Gilmore, Wright, Mason The Wall concert
Genesis, Grateful Dead (multiple times), Ted Nugent, Outlaws, Neil Young ... gosh... too many to list ...
and most within the 1st 3 rows.

brings back some really fun memories. LOL the stories would crack you up.

Being at the Stones last night really brought me back ... plus a stadium of others. I let my children know they were witnessing history in the making and they had such a great time too.

We were all dancing!

 

[Bagpuss]

You were so lucky - somehow, I never got to see any of the great bands. Albums were the closest I got, I''m afraid,

But boy, did I go to some great University gigs.

 

[Rhino]

Hey bud... before I hit the sack I wanted to post this model for ya. This is a perfect example of a non H&A with grade "a" optical symmetry. Get the Gem Advisor software on this site here, download it, open it up click on a button or 2. Close it, then open the file attachment at the bottom of this post.

I had the opportunity to speak at length with Al Gilbertson (research scientist for GIA, heavily involved in their cut grading implementation and testing) who recently spoke at our Alumni meeting and MANY people involved in the observation testing choose this as one of the most beautiful. I'm having a series of stones cut to these specs for observation testing I'm performing in the store with common folk. I've had stones like this in the past and they are gorgeous. Among H&A factories you will not find em as the lower girdles produce too much of a cleft in the "hearts" pattern. IMO ... no big woop since it is the face up appearance that means everything to the observer. You'll see the effects in the software in the patterning of the hearts I'm talking about but you'll also take note they are all perfectly symmetrical, hence no compromise in the optical symmetry.

Peace,

 

[Bagpuss]

I ''think'' I downloaded everything OK. Was it a 0.78ct? If so, I''m on the same page!

This whole development sounds like a great idea to me.
Will you be giving these stones a name or a section of their own so that we''ll know which ones are which?

 

[Rhino]

pm me Bag and I''ll share with you my thoughts on some future plans for this.