H&A Diamond not appraised as such ! Expertise Needed!

[txideal]

Hello Everyone,

I have been browsing this forum for about a year now since I stumbled across it on my search.

I love all of the information that I''ve been able to gather and the educational benefits have been phenomenal.

So... when it was our turn to go in search of our dream diamond, we were able to do so based on information and vendors that a lot of people use on this site.

We found one that is a more than 1 ct RBC H&A F VS2 that we bought online. We liked the stone very much but were quite disappointed when the GIA Gemologist and also his fellow colleague told us that the diamond that he was evaluating was NOT a Hearts & Arrows diamond because it was not engraved as "H&A" on the girdle of the stone and it is not noted on the GIA certificate as "Hearts and Arrows" therefore it is NOT a Hearts & Arrows.

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He said that "What you have is a very finely cut, excellent cut stone that is beautiful, but it is not a H&A diamond."

Needless to say I was very upset, disappointed and felt like I had been taken advantage of. I never heard of such a requirement. None of the diamonds that we looked at online had it noted on the GIA certs or on the girdle that they were H&A diamonds. The only "reports" that we have are the H&A images.

Diamond Industry Experts (Cut Experts) / Panelists/ H&A diamond buyers:
Is this true?
Have any of you taken your diamonds to appraisers to be told that the H&A diamond that you bought was not an H&A? Is there really "official" guidelines / criteria that will truly distinguish a H&A stone from one that is not?

Comments please. Thanks.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

GIA do not grade a diamond and say "yes this one is a H&A''s"

The vendor who ships them the stone can ask them to write "I love you" or any thing they like on the girdle.

I hope the appraiser was not on the list under resources on the top left?
If so please PM me the details.

However many good appraisers might tell you "hmmm, very nice but not quite H&A''s in MY opinion"

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 1/13/2005 10:55:50 PM
Author:txideal

We liked the stone very much but were quite disappointed when the GIA Gemologist and also his fellow colleague told us that the diamond that he was evaluating was NOT a Hearts & Arrows diamond because it was not engraved as ''H&A'' on the girdle of the stone and it is not noted on the GIA certificate as ''Hearts and Arrows'' therefore it is NOT a Hearts & Arrows.

TX, these fellows are probably nice guys, but not knowledgeable regarding H&A stones. GIA does not make a determination of H&A symmetry, and whether or not a girdle is laser inscribed doesn''t prove anything. If a stone has a precision H&A pattern, then it is an H&A stone regardless of whether it is inscribed on the girdle.

The proof is in the pudding. Photos exhibiting the H&A pattern or visual recognition by an expert under an H&A viewer is the confirming factor.

 

[JohnQuixote]

1. GIA does not grade Hearts & Arrows, so a GIA lab report will not indicate "Hearts & Arrows."

2. Simply engraving "H&A" on the girdle would not qualify a stone as a H&A, just as simply engraving D VVS1 on the girdle would not make it so (wouldn't that be nice?).

For that matter, there are many stones with "H&A" inscriptions that would never meet what I consider the standards for true or even near-true patterning...But I digress.

I have a couple of questions and some information.

1. Did the appraiser have a Hearts & Arrows viewer? Did he examine the patterning himself and make a determination based on knowledge of what constitutes H&A?

2. If he did not have a viewer, did he review the H&A images you have and make his decision based on that review?

There are no "official" standards for H&A, but stones that display true or near-true patterning are recognized by appraisers in the know (like Rich Sherwood, who has already replied in this thread, and his peers here on PS). Such an appraiser would not tell you a stone sold as H&A was not H&A unless he/she examined it thoroughly and determined that it did not meet his/her - or commonly accepted - patterning standards.

Here is info I have compiled on differing standards for Hearts & Arrows diamonds. (this list is extremely picky)

If you would like to post your H&A images I will give you an honest opinion on the trueness of the patterning, and whether it would qualify as H&A with my preferred appraisers.

 

[nicknomo]

I had trouble finding an appraiser who knew what AGS was, let alone Hearts and Arrows . Appraisers are a dime a dozen, I think you''ll be suprised that many don''t have quite that much knoweledge on diamonds, and if they do it probably isn''t up to date.

I think a large part of the problem is that these expensive high quality stones are very rare, and appraisers do not normally see anything other than your average deep cut diamond. I think it might be best if you go to an appraiser equipped to judge H&A stones, and recognizes the value of an ideal diamond.

If you want to cut straight to the point, ask them if they are equipped to judge Hearts and Arrows. Ask them if they have a scope to judge it with. If they don''t own a scope for judging H&A, chances are they won''t be that good of a judge. For 20$ I bought a cheap scope from mondera.com. With something like this, you can see for yourself how nice the pattern is on your diamond. A professional can probably give you a very precise answer on how good of an H&A cut it is, but for the most part you will be able to tell whether any hearts/arrows are crooked or misshaped just by looking at it yourself.

There really is no set standard for H&A. Some people are extremely picky about what qualifies. I apparently ended up with a very well cut H&A stone, but to tell you the truth I saw a couple stones with "almost perfect" and "perfect" H&A (ideal) patterns side by side... more often than not I couldn''t see any visible difference with the naked eye. I think people are a tad bit picky when it comes to the details... I think at this point it becomes more of a marketing gimmick..

Anyways, back to the point... Make sure you find an appraiser who knows what he is talking about before you get an appraisal. Otherwise, you are just building ammo for the cheapo insurance companies come replacement time.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I think it is better you use a regular pricescope appraiser or one from the lidt in the top right. They are usually far more up-to-date as NickNomo says.
The issue of remoteness vs local is a non-issue - if there are no recomended appraisers near you - have the stone shipped to one on the other side of the country - it takes no more time and probably no more cost.
You have some amazing appraisers there in the States - so use them - would you use a second rate surgeon?

 

[blitz]

"appraisers are a dime a dozen...appraisers do not normally see anything other than your average deep cut diamond."

It''s nice to know I''m a dime, and not only know what a "Heart & Arrow" diamond is, but can also recognize it.

But, that must be because I read "pricescope" and subscribe to all of
Mr. Garry H. (AKA Cut Nut)''s comments.

 

[nicknomo]

No offense intended there.. But I hope you understand what I was saying. I live in NY, where there are hundereds of independant appraisers, as well as jewelers who will do appraisals. The sheer numbers are quite high, and from what I can see many probably should choose a different profession.

Of course, I was not implying that all appraisers are like this... However, I was implying that there are very few "good" appraisers out there, whoe really know the diamond field. I learned this very quickly after picking up the phone book and calling a few places...

"AGS? Stay away from that, that is one of those imitation certs..."

"AGS triple wha? Never heard of it"

"Heart and arrows? All round diamonds are hearts and arrows"

"I've been in the business for 20 years, and I've never heard of AGS. Whoever told you this is a reputable cert is pulling your leg."

I was only smart enough to make these calls after wasting 100$ on the first bozo.

And don't even get me started on my local jewelers...

Seriously though, your profession needs a good "weeding out".

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You are a rose among the thorny weeds Jennifer

 

[txideal]

Yes, I took our diamond to an appraiser that was on this board as one in my area. He is supposed to be a GIA certified appraiser. I''ve already spent $100 for the appraisal on one in Houston that I thought was supposed to be good. I''m not familiar with sending the stone to an appraiser elsewhere. I''m not sure if I want to get involved in shipping my stone out... ie.. logistics etc.

He had a H&A viewer, but from what I could see through the glass window, he did not take it out to use it!!

I asked him for it and I looked through the viewer to see the pattern. I still don''t know if it''s truly what we purchased.

I''ll PM you Garry if you want the details.

Thanks John, I''ll also post the H&A images once I get home.

Thanks for your perspectives.

 

[codex57]

You think he switched the stone on you?

 

[txideal]

No I don''t think he switched the stone on me. I watched him from the glass window. Why do you ask?

I''m already very anxious and nervous about this whole process and this is ruining the whole experience for me. My BF couldn''t go with me, so I had to do this by myself.

How am I supposed to tell if he switched it on me? The only way is to send it back to the online vendor that sold it to us? I don''t want to be shipping our stone around... the only other time that I will be shipping my stone out is to have it set.

 

[codex57]

I only asked b/c you said, "I still don''t know if it''s truly what we purchased." Didn''t know if you meant that the appraiser or even teh vendor switched stones on you, or it was a misrepresentation from the specs listed. If you watched him, then I wouldn''t worry too much about phsyically switching stones.