Guy "in waiting"

[argh&stuff]

Sunkist,

You have the same thoughts my girl does! She says, "once we have a house, and I have a ring, and I know the day is near, what I''ve been holding out on for 26 years is gonna be HARD, boy. You better find a place to live, cause it can''t be near me!"

She cracks me up.

It''ll work out. My mom would ADORE having me around again... it''d mean my girl''d be over all the time. She just LOVES her... Mom enjoys having a girl in the ranks; two boys, a husband, no daughter. I''m so blessed that they get along as they do. The two best women in the world, they are!

 

[argh&stuff]

SOME people make FAST decisions!

Remember my buddy who went with me to look at rings earlier? Well, he chose one, bought it, and is planning on asking his girl to marry him this weekend. Lucky man!

Why is it the choice is so easy for some, and for others, it takes FOREVER it seems?

(I guess the fact that he has a savings account and didn''t have to save up for his purchase like I''m doing is a factor, too.)

This''ll give my girl all the more "ammo" to get on me about "getting things done," too. Haha... like she needs any more of that!!

 

[anchor31]

Aw, don''t feel bad... It''ll all be worth it in the end!!

 

[argh&stuff]

Sometimes I wonder if I''d not found this site, would I have a ring already? I mean, there are some decent looking rings out that are about the same carat size as she likes for like 800 dollars, and I can afford that RIGHT NOW.

It doesn''t help matters that lately I feel like I''ve been getting questioned by people, friends, parents, co-workers. Maybe I am taking too long, for something I''m obviously ready for... something both of us are obviously ready for.

 

[argh&stuff]

Another weekend gone... and I miss her.

So, to console myself, I''ve been looking up more options for her ring. More confusion I''m adding, really.

 

[anchor31]

I''ve just had a thought... My dear boyfriend''s budget isn''t very big either and I''d like to have as close to .50ct like your girlfriend, so what we decided to do it put as little as possible on the setting so we can have more money left for the stone. Eventually on an anniversary we could upgrade to my dream three stone...

You might have considered this already and decided you really want the tuliphead setting and that''s fine, I''m just sayin''!

 

[Patchee]

Angela, I am assuming you were responding to my post? On living together? I NEVER said anywhere in my post that it is a requirement to live together before hand and by no means am I trying to get the poster to make that move... just stating how I feel, my opinion! He asked too, remember?? So, I answered how I felt necessary. I am happy your live is fine without living together first..

But, for me.. I don;t work with my guy (I wouldn''t either)
We have crazy schedules which would keep us from seeing eachother/doing things every night. SO< us living together is ideal for our situation.

Again, OP wanted advice on this, I gave it

 

[Patchee]

WREN, Living together is not a TEST RUN of marriage, whatever that means...

 

[Blenheim]

Patchee,

I think that the reason why people reacted the way they did is because Argh said in his initial post that he and his girlfriend are choosing to save living together (and sex) until marriage for religious reasons:

"My girl and I don''t live together, and we have both decided that we want to stay that way until we are married. I cannot wait to wake up next to her every day, though. There have been times when we''ve fallen asleep watching a movie or whatnot, and I''ve never slept so well in my life. I am at peace with her, and it amazes me.

"I can''t think of a better gift God could have bestowed upon me. I can''t wait until we are bound together as one. We''re both a bit old fashioned, and we talk all the time about life together. I want it so badly to be RIGHT now."

The longer a thread gets, the easier it is to miss things like this. Living together (and working together, for that matter) are such personal decisions and what''s right for one couple is not right for another. My BF and I have extremely hectic schedules and usually can''t see each other more than once during the week. Still, living together hasn''t been right for us up to now.

Living together as a "test run" or "trial run" is, unfortunately, a pretty common term. Yes, living together before marriage doesn''t necessarily have to be a "test run," but there are people who use it that way. Since Wren has lived with ex-BFs to see if they were compatible before deciding on marriage, my guess is that she was using the term either because it''s convenient and many people understand what she''s talking about, or because she realizes in retrospect that she was using "test runs" in the past. Wren can probably add much more to this or correct me if I was mis-interpreting what she was saying.

 

[Angela1977]

Patchee, I didn't see anywhere he was asking whether they should live together or not before they get married. I think they had pretty well determined that they were convicted NOT to do that. They are moving toward engagement/marriage very quickly, and living together isn't going to help speed that decision along at all. That's why I posted what I did.

I don't know what your situation is, but obviously you're comfortable with living together while engaged or right before becoming engaged and that's great! I personally want more of a commitment before I intertwine my life with someone else's. That's how I feel about it. I've seen WAY too many relationships never get past the living together phase. My best friend has been living with her boyfriend for 5 years now...he keeps saying that he's waiting to be "financially secure enough to support a family" before they get married, and I personally think it's a load of crap. They share a bank account, all of their expenses, etc, but he can still end it any time he wants. He then did a huge consulting job and got two net paychecks, one over $20K, one over $40K, and still no ring and no talk of marriage. I wouldn't put myself in that sort of situation. (This doesn't apply to Argh, because he's obviously smitten with his young woman...he's marrying her regardless!!!

) I'm just talking about personal experiences that have led to my decision. Plus my BF doesn't want to live together until we get married...I guess we're traditionalists in that sense.

And Wren was just speaking about her experiences...people do use living together as a trial run. What else could you mean when you said "I have learned all of his quirks as he learned mine. I learned how he takes care of the house, as he within me, see his financial way, and mine. It is SO important to learn about your s/o before marriage.". What would've happened if you didn't like the quirks, or didn't take the time to work them out? Or you didn't take the time to work the finances out? Why is it important to learn about that before marriage rather than after marriage? Discuss them openly, yes. Work out as much as you can, but you should be able to learn enough by spending a lot of time together and discerning the character of your significant other. If you're commited to working through little differences, it shouldn't matter when it happens. The only reason you would do it before you get married is so if you find something out you don't like, you didn't make "the mistake of getting married." (another thing you hear a lot). That sounds dangerously close like the "trial run" Wren was talking about...and you hear that term tossed about all the time.

And Argh quoted a quite of bit of research his girlfriend had looked up about couples living together before marriage (and now I'm just talking outloud here...because I know people can live together beforehand and have GREAT marriages). But the divorce rate is higher than it has ever been and so is the rate of people co-habitating before marriage...could there be a correlation? I don't have the figures to back me up, but it seems there might be something to it.

 

[argh&stuff]

Wow, again guys, I''m sorry that this big debate has evolved here. I didn''t in any way intend on creating any sort of issues or frustration for anyone. I was just explaining part of why I''m so excited and eager to get married, and why my girl can talk about it non-stop from time to time.

Anyway, like I also said, statistics can only speak in general (and sometimes skewed) terms; there is a lot of "evidence" out there, but it in no way states that living together before marrying means you have to be doomed. Never the less, it''s not a chance I want to take, and I''d also feel quilty about it. So, we don''t. And, we won''t.

Anyway, in other news I''m starting to feel a little bit more "ready" to get things started with the ring. I''m still not sure about things, and I''ve asked a lot of questions, but I do feel more settled (to some degree anyway) with using an online vendor.

April is coming... and May''s just around the corner from it! But, I still would like to do April.

 

[argh&stuff]

Tomorrow is payday. I think I might be able to swing this thing soon.

I did get an unexpected bill today (car registration time. forgot about that!!), but I''m thinking I can still do it soon.

Once again, I''ve gotten some (three, really) great ideas for the ring, but now I''m sort of stuck as far as making a decision. At the very least, I hope to get the stone. I am a bit more decided on that issue.

Just an update for you ladies.

 

[sunkist]

Yay Argh!! Congratulations

It''s going to come together beautifully

 

[anchor31]

Yay!!

What stone did you pick?

 

[argh&stuff]

Well, Anch....

I''m going to decide when I see where my paycheck leaves me tomorrow. The way it looks, I might be able to go for the bigger stone, which I prefer. It looks like a better, clearer stone to me. My girl, however, seems to be keen on the smaller stone. She says for me to do what I want, and I just think really part of why she says she likes the smaller is because it''s less expensive.

Since I''ve been able to find a setting that''s a LOT less than I was thinking it would be, I might be able to get the "better" (it''s a matter of opinion, though) stone and not have to save up an additional month.

I think I''ll sleep on it.

 

[anchor31]

Anch... *giggles*

Ah, a good night''s sleep is a good idea! Which ever you choose, it''ll be perfect! I saw the setting on you RT thread and it''s gorgeous!

 

[argh&stuff]

I''m still nervous, but maybe tomorrow I won''t be. At the very least, I need to talk to these people and see which is more "sparkly" when they look at them side by side.

That will be a deciding factor, too.

I wish I had it RIGHT now!

I guess another thing is to ask how long the process is? Gosh, I''ve not asked about that AT all....

Ooops.

 

[DonaBella]

Date: 3/27/2006 5:15:31 PM
Author: Angela1977
Patchee, I didn''t see anywhere he was asking whether they should live together or not before they get married. I think they had pretty well determined that they were convicted NOT to do that. They are moving toward engagement/marriage very quickly, and living together isn''t going to help speed that decision along at all. That''s why I posted what I did.

I don''t know what your situation is, but obviously you''re comfortable with living together while engaged or right before becoming engaged and that''s great! I personally want more of a commitment before I intertwine my life with someone else''s. That''s how I feel about it. I''ve seen WAY too many relationships never get past the living together phase. My best friend has been living with her boyfriend for 5 years now...he keeps saying that he''s waiting to be ''financially secure enough to support a family'' before they get married, and I personally think it''s a load of crap. They share a bank account, all of their expenses, etc, but he can still end it any time he wants. He then did a huge consulting job and got two net paychecks, one over $20K, one over $40K, and still no ring and no talk of marriage. I wouldn''t put myself in that sort of situation. (This doesn''t apply to Argh, because he''s obviously smitten with his young woman...he''s marrying her regardless!!!

) I''m just talking about personal experiences that have led to my decision. Plus my BF doesn''t want to live together until we get married...I guess we''re traditionalists in that sense.

And Wren was just speaking about her experiences...people do use living together as a trial run. What else could you mean when you said ''I have learned all of his quirks as he learned mine. I learned how he takes care of the house, as he within me, see his financial way, and mine. It is SO important to learn about your s/o before marriage.''. What would''ve happened if you didn''t like the quirks, or didn''t take the time to work them out? Or you didn''t take the time to work the finances out? Why is it important to learn about that before marriage rather than after marriage? Discuss them openly, yes. Work out as much as you can, but you should be able to learn enough by spending a lot of time together and discerning the character of your significant other. If you''re commited to working through little differences, it shouldn''t matter when it happens. The only reason you would do it before you get married is so if you find something out you don''t like, you didn''t make ''the mistake of getting married.'' (another thing you hear a lot). That sounds dangerously close like the ''trial run'' Wren was talking about...and you hear that term tossed about all the time.

And Argh quoted a quite of bit of research his girlfriend had looked up about couples living together before marriage (and now I''m just talking outloud here...because I know people can live together beforehand and have GREAT marriages). But the divorce rate is higher than it has ever been and so is the rate of people co-habitating before marriage...could there be a correlation? I don''t have the figures to back me up, but it seems there might be something to it.

Angela you and Argh are exactly correct. Folks, in general who live together before marriage, have a higher ratio nationwide than those people who do not. My FDIL and I were just discussing this and she shared some statistics that her college class had been discussing. I thought it was said best when some folks compared living together you lose the excitement of the "first time we made love" or "the first time we woke up together in bed" or other intimate firsts. There is a special sort of excitement that surrounds firsts with your now spouse. My son has a friend, a girl, who when she and her now husband got married last sunmmer, after they came back from their honeymoon, they came home and life pretty much continued like it did before the wedding with the exception of opening a few gifts. No newness, no nervousness of first being together cohabitating...she said she kind of missed that and envied my son and his FI for what they now have to look forward to.

I am so excited for you, Argh! I am wishing you the best of luck with all of this!

 

[argh&stuff]

Well, another weekend''s flown by, and I''m left missing the person I love again. I keep reminding myself it won''t be for long, but still, the first day or so are hard. Then the countdown for the next weekend begins again.

This is my week off from teaching. Spring break.

I originally had plans to ask her on a trip this week, but now we''re not planning on taking one. I''ll visit her at her house, and I''ll have started the ordering process before I see her again, but it''s still not the way I planned it. I''m curious as to how long the making process will be. It''s a matter of seeing how long it''ll take the ring to be located, sent to WF, then placed in the setting, once they put the head on the ring. I hope it''s not an incredibly long process. It will be a good deal less time consuming than doing the custom made route, so for that I''m glad.

I think I''ll end up winging when and how I ask her. I think I''ll end up getting caught up in her being particularly cute and sweet, and I''ll get overwhelmed and I''ll just do it. Planning would be more "romantical" and "fairytale" like, but I''m not sure I''ll be able to do that.

 

[anchor31]

Proposing in a cute and sweet moment is a good idea too! I think it''s really sweet and makes it more spontaneous. My boyfriend would however tell you that since you only do this once in a lifetime, you should do something really special. It''s up to you, really, just thought I''d share our respectives opinions!

Keep up posted on the ring progress, I can''t wait to see that beauty!

 

[argh&stuff]

Yeah, knowing my girl like I do, I know she just adores the "cuteness" factor. I want it to be something special, and I know she has all these whimsical ideas about the day, and I want to fulfill that wish for her. I''m just saying, once I have it, I''m gonna be ansy to finally ask her.

Maybe I should look through some of the other ideas on here, to get my mind thinking beyond just the Aquarium and the beach.

I did think about doing it at the top of one of the skylines in the city; but I don'' know if that''s her ideal, or mine.

I find the skyline fascinating, and while she likes the view of all the lights at night, I''m not sure it''d be her most favorite, either. I try not to think about it too much, then I get nervous about doing it "right," when I know that really, she''d like it however it happens.

 

[Patchee]

DeannaBana, I wish I knew how to quote but I don't so..

My situation must be way different because after 2 years of living together that newness for us both is still there, nothing has gotten too comfy, boring or repetitive because we keep it that way. We work on our relationship for it to be always in the honey moon stage. Granted, there is no nervouseness of moving in together anymore, the first time waking up together, that has past and I am happy it has because moving in together was more stressful/nervouseness than I would have liked. I love waking up to him everymorning so, it always feels like the first time... everything feels like the first time.

So besides religious beliefs I see no reason or harm in not moving in with your soon to be husband and NO, you do not learn everything you would want to know if you don't live together before marriage, how could you?... behind closed doors without you there you have no idea what's going on. If you are a part of that everyday living why then, of course you are and know what's up. SOME people move in with s/o's to tests the waters and put the jacket on the relationship of "too see if he is the one I want to marry", not me though.. I moved in with him because I wanted to share myself more with him, him me. I wanted to be a part of his morning and night, I wanted to build a steady foundation before marriage, which we have.

As far as your girlfriend living with her guy for 5 years and he claims financial issues, well you know like I that he does not want to marry her, he just does not. When a man wants to get married, he will get married, love really has nothing to do with finances. It is too bad for your friend that she is not seeing the big picture. You can only hope that she does not waste all too many years in waiting. I see it this way, I do not think divorce rate is higher in people who are living together before marriage, nor people who are not living together before marriage, that is just ONE STATISTIC WRITTEN BY SOME PEOPLE, OPINIONS ARE LIKE _ _ _ HOLES, WE ALL HAVE ONE. It is all about the indivials there selfs! If we went on statistics all the time what kinda would would this be??? Seriously.

Who wants to marry someone who doesn't want it as much as they do??? I wouldn't. If my guy down the road does not want marriage but I do, I will leave and hope to find what I want somewhere else. We have choices... So, living together for me is just fine, working out great. We will marry if we want, if not, ok...

Just silly.

ARGH, we want an update as soon as you get one, I am excited for you and so sorry to hyjack your thread... I must have read your decisions wrong in the OP but it snowballed into hoopla...

 

[argh&stuff]

Patch,

Don''t worry about "hyjacking." Since my girl''s found me out (although she has promised to NOT read any of my posts.... but, I secretly wonder. She can be a sneaky thing!), I''ve been telling her a little about the nice people on here, and the things I''ve learned, diamonds and otherwise. Anyway, she was intrigued by the "debate" regarding living together vs. not prior to marriage. I don''t mind the discussion at all; I think it''s great for people to express opinions, and to know WHY they hold them. So, no harm done. At all. Likewise, I don''t want anyone thinking I''ve been pushing anything on them. I''m glad my girl and I have made our choices and stuck to them, but I''m not here to persuade the same in others. I''m more of a living by example rather than by pointing fingers kind of guy. Or at least I try. (It can become easy at times to waggle the finger, though.) Some of my women co-workers are SO silly at times, I can''t hardly help it. Girls can be SO hard on their men. We don''t know what you''re thinking... just tell us, then we''ll be much more communicative. It''s a promise.

(Sorry; I''m carrying a discussion/counseling session with a co-worker home with me today.)

 

[Small]

Wow...I''ve found this thread so interesting!!!


First Argh...you are such a great guy!!! Your girl is going to love whatever you choose. YOu have such great morals and values. I totally admire that. It''s such a breath of fresh air in today''s society. I can''t say as I''d do the same or did the same but I do think that carrying the values that make one true to oneself is all you can do to walk along happily in life

That being said...I did live with my now husband before marriage. I wouldn''t have done it any differently and would do it over again given the chance. We had such a hard first year of living together and then the changes after marriage...I feel like had we not gotten the living together adjustments past us we might have been divorced immediately...no kidding it was a HUGE adjustment when I moved in with him. I wanted to run back home 50 times...bags packed and out the door. YIKES! But we survived and committment to each other and our relationship have been a big part along with our age I think. I know stats are higher for divorce when you live together first but I also know stats are lower for divorce the older you are when you get married. I will be married for 6 years in Sept and I can tell you its been alot of work. But my husband and I have been very committed to making this marriage last. We are finally in a place where it''s working well a majority of the time. I think living together or not is kind of irrelevant. My outlook really is all about how you approach marriage. We both approach it forever. We don''t look at divorce as an option...I mean yes it''s there and no we won''t live miserably but it''s the absolute last resort and I mean trying everything humanly possible before taking that last step. I''m a child of divorce and I know how painful and difficult it can be for children. I never want mine to have to experience that. My husband and I took a very realistic view into our marriage...it''s alot of hardwork, it''s a lot of compromise, and it''s give and take all of the time. It''s also a huge learning process. I truly believe that you get out of it what you are willing to put into it...just like anything else in life

So I think if you want to live together fine and if not that''s great to. I just think everyone needs to go into marriage with a strong and determined mind that no matter what we are going to walk this road together in good times and bad and stick by each other and support each other always.

Argh...you''ve got a good head on your shoulders and your values and morals are to be commended

. I have no doubt that you and your girl will have much future success in your marriage.

 

[Patchee]

I agree Argh, you are a great guy! You girl is SO LUCKY to have someone like you! Do you think she reads this thread?? Secretly?? If so, message to her!!! HAPPY DANCE! You got a good one!! Yeah!

I feel we should be free to discuss our opinions openly, I am open to anyones opinions, I think it is great that you and your girl are waiting to move in together.. me, I couldn''t wait!

I am overly excited for you.

 

[Patchee]

SMALL: You couldn''t have said it better then that!!! You will be happy forever because you and your Hubby have vowed forever and you will forever work on your committment of marriage! I admire that!!

I absolutly agree that the older the parties entering into marriage are the better chance of survival, true again though, it is both parties working hard at it too! It is a 2 way street!

I was scared to death of moving in with him, for months he would say "it;s more practical if you moved in here etc." finally I moved in and yep, I wanted to turn around a few times myself - it was a huge adjustment, but now - I wouldn''t trade it for anything!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Hi argh...heh, funny name. You sound like a great guy, glad to hear things are moving forward for you!


To hijack briefly...I''ve read that stat on marriage before. First off, it''s generally cited by covservative groups. That''s fine, but don''t dress up your religious conviction and put it out as objective. Statistics, especially ones like this, are prone to selection bias, among other problems. Even the numbers I saw on it clearly noted that couples who cohabited with a clear and then realized intention of becoming engaged and married within the recent future did not have the same numbers. I would never have moved in with DB if I didn''t know exactly where it was going, personally. If I don''t trust him enough to trust him not to screw me over if we live together before marriage, I certainly don''t want to trust him just because he''s afraid I''ll take half his money/the kids/whatever.

As for the "firsts," bit...I was just as happy to experiance those things with him this year. Being married will be special in its own unique way. Maybe this is because our timeline is skewed--I waited seven years to live with him, and I didn''t feel like waiting another three. I also tend to see marriage as a legal deal, something about money, children, being able to make the tough decisions if your spouse is in a coma or the like. Love was about firsts, marriage is about stability and security, at least for me.

On the other hand, I totally respect people who choose not to live together. Heck, I have one Christian friend who is holding off on everything, and I truly respect her strength of conviction. But she doesn''t shove it off on me or tell me I''m going to be more likely to get divorced...

 

[blodthecat]

Hi Argh!

Can''t wait for this to all come together for you now. I am sure you will deliver a wonderful proposal, as you sound such a romantic guy!

I have just got to say that I have been really suprised about the number of posts relating to living together prior to marriage. People seem to have very strong views about this on both sides of the fence

I don''t think there is a right or wrong answer....just personal choice!

Blod

 

[Angela1977]

I don''t think anyone is "shoving" these statistics off. Just putting them out for contemplation. Argh has said that he doesn''t care what other people do...just what''s best for he and his fiancee.

Argh...I can''t wait to hear "the rest" of your story! You''re quite the inspiration! Good luck...you''re a lucky man and she''s a lucky, lucky lady.

 

[argh&stuff]

Hey all.

Many good points were made in recent posts. I am glad that this is being discussed in a nice and friendly way.

Again, I do think that living by example is the most effective way to live a Christian life. And that's what I do, failures included. I think a BIG reason why there tends to be a negative stigma related to Christianity is because there are some people who put a "holier than thou" twist on what they say, how they respond, and the like. True, I have strong convictions, and I'm glad I do, and when asked, I'll state them, and when confronted, I won't back down from them. They're ingrained in me, and happily so. However, I don't think it's an effective act of witness (and by "witness," I DO NOT mean daily throwing my convictions on anyone else; I just mean it as an act of living my life to the best of my ability, in a way that is pleasing to God, and that, in turn, causes people to seek to know more about why a person does and feels and responds in particular ways, which then opens the doors for discussion about faith and all that. I'm not going to deny my God, but I also won't turn people off to Him by slamming Him down their throat) to be rude, biting, or condemning on other people, or their choices.

As far as statistics go, yeah, they are skewed. I have always stated that, because numbers can be twisted to the convenience of whoever pays to have them accumulated and calculated. Statistics are a good way to look at particular things, but you do need to be careful about who does the study, and where their funding comes from, as well as any other "special interests" involved. They're a good deal harder to find, but there are some out there that aren't funded by special interest groups. They vary slightly over those made by "conservative" or "liberal" parties, but not by a good deal, either.

Age: this is a very important factor in a successful marriage, based almost solely on life experience and having the ability to know who you are, what you want to accomplish, what matters to you, and what type of person (qualities, temperment, social status, intelligence, interests, etc.) with whom you want to spend the rest of your life. Typically, the early 20's are a time when a person "discovers who they are," and they learn about themselves and they are then more able to decipher who would be a positive match for them. However, everyone reaches this point at different times. I know of several couples married at 21 or 22, and they already had that life experience and self-exploration time, and they made excellent choices in who to love for life. For me, I needed a little more time to learn these things. Had my girl come along when I was 22, I doubt I would have had the sense to know she was such a precious gem for me. My girl, though, being a LOT more self-analytical, has known for quite some time the type of man who she wanted, and she often teases that it's too bad it took me so long to come along, since she would have been ready for me 5 years ago.

Having said that, we both know this point in our lives (I'm about to be 29; she's 26), we're ready to "settle down" a bit and grow and build a family together. At 22, that would have been a bit taunting to me. Again, everyone "ages" or "matures" at different rates.

Seeing that marriage is a lifetime choice, and that divorce is not an "option." I completley agree with this: I think that the single biggest reason for divorce to be at such highs currently is due to the thought that "if things don't work out, there's always divorce." If you go into a marriage thinking in those terms, the first time things get really rough, you'll be thinking about it. The second time, you'll think about it a little more. By the third, fourth, fifth or sixth (and there will undoubtably be a LOT more than that, even), you'll get to thinking, "wow, things really aren't going like I thought. Hmm...." But, if that's not something you are willing to even entertain, you'll instead put your thoughts toward finding out how to work through things, how to improve the relationship, how to develop better communication skills, how to "read" one another better, and the like. That's the mortar that makes a relationship solid. If you look at it that way, I do believe it's a lot more likely that a couple will take the steps and put in the time, sweat, tears, love, hugs, and long discussions that make a marriage work.

And I think that's what links the whole thing about living together before marriage to a higher tendency to divorce, because then marriage doesn't seem as that "big of a deal," since it doesn't alter your lifestyle in a huge way. That doesn't mean it HAS to lead to divorce, it just means that when marriage is something that completely changes the way you live, the choices you make, and the way you pay bills, and all of the ways your daily living habits change in order to accomodate another person, who you love, then there is less likelihood of seeing marriage as something that has an option of divorce linked to it.

Hmm... I don't feel like that's expressing what I'm trying to say as well as I'd like for it to. But anyway, I don't think, by any means, that living together prior to marriage has to make for a weak marriage. I do think it can sort of distort the huge impact and life-altering changes that marriage is intended to make in a person's life.

Finally, has my girl been reading this? Well, I HOPE not, since I did post some of my ideas about proposal, and I'd HATE for her to not be surprised, but then again... she did find me out a while back, and she is a sneaky thing, and it's hard as anything to get a surprise on her.... so, it may be safe to say, yeah, I bet she has. Her self-control is low when it comes to peeking at presents, so I doubt this would be any different. Jen, if you're reading this, tsk, tsk.

(But, if you are, please read and re-read --over and over and over--all the nice comments made about me. You found a steal of a man, sweetie!

Read these next time you're frustrated with me. I'm well loved around here. Haha....)