Grey

[petit_bijou]

Thank you Minous and JF! I will try to get some better pictures of it capturing the different personalities and start a thread soon.

I have been loving the grey spinels Jeff Davies has been posting lately! I usually see them on pinterest once it's too late, but the ones that VL and Woofmama scored are a few of my favourites!

Lately I dream of having the grey/violet marquise cut diamond on Leibish's site set EW among marquise white diamonds to make a bezeled 1/2 eternity band....

 

[minousbijoux]

Not only luck but good judgment to buy it, PB! Nice. Love Woofmama's too. You are making me want a gray spinel too! Plain gray is beautiful but so are ones with modifiers.

--- Laurie

Right. Something about this Congo has me wanting a true plain grey spinel. Home fully my friend starts the hunt soon so I can lice though her. Or else I'll have to do it.

Niel: would you mind slowing down and double checking what you write please? Sometimes its hard to follow...

 

[Niel]

Not only luck but good judgment to buy it, PB! Nice. Love Woofmama's too. You are making me want a gray spinel too! Plain gray is beautiful but so are ones with modifiers.

--- Laurie

Right. Something about this Congo has me wanting a true plain grey spinel. Home fully my friend starts the hunt soon so I can lice though her. Or else I'll have to do it.

Niel: would you mind slowing down and double checking what you write please? Sometimes its hard to follow...

Ha! Sorry. It was irrelevant anyways.

I see someone reserved that grey EC

 

[minousbijoux]

Yeah but you didn't really want the temptation, did you?

 

[kenny]

... I find there's a premium on diamonds just because they come from Argyle, but I'm not sure why.

Simple supply and demand.
Many buyers will pay more for a ruby from Mogok, sapphire from Kashmir, diamond from Golkonda or Argyle, emerald from Muzo, etc.
It's not about gemology.
It's about business.

Good, bad, right, or wrong, clever marketers turn locations that have produced top-quality gems into 'brands'.
It happens.
It's real.
Not all buyers fall for it, but enough do for it to increase the price for everyone, even smart buyers.
People who don't fall for it will not be buying gems that AGL/GIA determine to be from those locations.

Call up a vendor and tell them you are too smart to fall for the location thing so you should be allowed to buy it for X dollars less.
See what they say.

Yes yes yes we all know not every gem from region X is top-quality.
That doesn't matter, the location thing still applies even though it is not logical for a poor gem from a prestigious location.
A crappy sapphire that AGL says is from Kashmir will command a higher price than the same gem NOT from Kashmir.

It is very perplexing that this subject comes up again and again on CS forum, particularly from some of our best-informed posters.

 

[FrekeChild]

... I find there's a premium on diamonds just because they come from Argyle, but I'm not sure why.

Simple supply and demand.
Many buyers will pay more for a ruby from Mogok, sapphire from Kashmir, diamond from Golkonda or Argyle, emerald from Muzo, etc.
It's not about gemology.
It's about business.

Good, bad, right, or wrong, clever marketers turn locations that have produced top-quality gems into 'brands'.
It happens.
It's real.
Not all buyers fall for it, but enough do for it to increase the price for everyone, even smart buyers.
People who don't fall for it will not be buying gems that AGL/GIA determine to be from those locations.

Call up a vendor and tell them you are too smart to fall for the location thing so you should be allowed to buy it for X dollars less.
See what they say.

Yes yes yes we all know not every gem from region X is top-quality.
That doesn't matter, the location thing still applies even though it is not logical for a poor gem from a prestigious location.
A crappy sapphire that AGL says is from Kashmir will command a higher price than the same gem NOT from Kashmir.

It is very perplexing that this subject comes up again and again on CS forum, particularly from some of our best-informed posters.

But a pink Kashmir sapphire will not have a premium just because it's from Kashmir. Silky blue Kashmir sapphires are why the locale is famous.

Light pink Mahenge spinels do not carry a premium, unlike their hot pink/red counterparts.

So a gray from Argyle? Ehhhh....

 

[kenny]

The Argyle mine is running dry and they are hustling for every last dollar before they pack it up and go home.
Argyle is even issuing Argyle certificates for diamonds with Brown.

Would I buy one?
No way, but the Argyle feeding frenzy has been crazy.
Argyle doesn't care what you or I think.
It's about money and for some buyers, as with real estate, it's location location location.

This reminds me of Tiffany selling sterling silver jewelry.
People get the name they crave for a relatively low-cost item.

 

[FrekeChild]

I have a few items of Tiffany jewelry, myself, but I'd actually prefer they be nameless, I just liked the designs. The name was a huge hit AGAINST them, not for them.

But yes, there are people out there who only buy Tiffany because they must have the little blue box. And only buy Cartier because they must have the red box.

But I don't consider that to be the same as a location a stone is mined from. A name of a store is a marketing tool. It's not an indication of quality. We expect certain things from a blue velvet Kashmir sapphire, because it's how it came out of the ground, and stones from that local have certain characteristics. Man made stuff, especially across a huge chain? Not so much.

 

[velouriaL]

If your friend like gray as in the organicy rose cut or rough diamond look, then she's also in luck in terms of price. I think they are really cool looking, and while often overpriced, they aren't that expensive.

I like grey a lot and recently picked up this grey spinel from Jeff Davies. It hasn't arrived yet, but I'll post photos when it does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Zh23XorXc
I have to admit I bought this somewhat hastily. I'm excited to see what it looks like in person and to learn more about the color and species, but I think ultimately I will prefer a gray spinel that's lighter and more blue rather than lavender. I also want one that looks good in yellow or rose gold. So, I'll probably need to experiment.

Here are some pictures that illustrate both the aforementioned "organicy rose cut or rough diamond look" and the yellow/rose gold with gray combo.

 

[Niel]

She wants a more high end look I think than those organic designs. She wants to pair it with a HW halo.

I know this has a bit of blue. But for 20cts I can make some concessions.

 

[velouriaL]

Had she seen many colorless diamonds in emerald cut in person? My grandmother's 2ct emerald cut diamond (don't know the specs) in platinum, definitely had a steely look to it because of the step cut. She might be happy with that... although if you/she can find a nice spinel, that will more than likely save more than a few pennies, which she can put toward some nice pave...

 

[Niel]

Had she seen many colorless diamonds in emerald cut in person? My grandmother's 2ct emerald cut diamond (don't know the specs) in platinum, definitely had a steely look to it because of the step cut. She might be happy with that... although if you/she can find a nice spinel, that will more than likely save more than a few pennies, which she can put toward some nice pave...

I'll have to ask. This would be her second e ring and I know she said she didn't want a diamond. But who knows. I would just assume it would save money to go spinel.

 

[T L]

The Argyle mine is running dry and they are hustling for every last dollar before they pack it up and go home.
Argyle is even issuing Argyle certificates for diamonds with Brown.

Would I buy one?
No way, but the Argyle feeding frenzy has been crazy.
Argyle doesn't care what you or I think.
It's about money and for some buyers, as with real estate, it's location location location.

This reminds me of Tiffany selling sterling silver jewelry.
People get the name they crave for a relatively low-cost item.

So normally I've seen pink diamonds from other locations that look just as nice as the ones from Argyle (not talking tender quality material here). Therefore, I still don't get it because Muzo, Kashmir, and Burma are all locations famed for the quality of their emeralds, sapphires and rubies respectively, so I get the premium in the cases of those gems, in fine quality.

Sorry to thread jack from the "grey" subject, but I once pointed out a very high quality relatively inexpensive pink diamond on Liebisch's site to a friend of mine, simply because it was a good buy. Leibisch said the ones in similar quality that are higher priced are so because they're Argyle, but they couldn't definitively state why they had a premium. My friend bought the less expensive FCD because, in comparison to the Argyle stones that had the same GIA rating and looked identical, it was a great buy. Similar carat weight, cut, etc. . .

I don't think auction houses that sell FCD's really care if the stones are Argyle or other mines either, do they?

Go figure. . .

 

[Niel]

The Argyle mine is running dry and they are hustling for every last dollar before they pack it up and go home.
Argyle is even issuing Argyle certificates for diamonds with Brown.

Would I buy one?
No way, but the Argyle feeding frenzy has been crazy.
Argyle doesn't care what you or I think.
It's about money and for some buyers, as with real estate, it's location location location.

This reminds me of Tiffany selling sterling silver jewelry.
People get the name they crave for a relatively low-cost item.

So normally I've seen pink diamonds from other locations that look just as nice as the ones from Argyle (not talking tender quality material here). Therefore, I still don't get it because Muzo, Kashmir, and Burma are all locations famed for the quality of their emeralds, sapphires and rubies respectively, so I get the premium in the cases of those gems, in fine quality.

Sorry to thread jack from the "grey" subject, but I once pointed out a very high quality relatively inexpensive pink diamond on Liebisch's site to a friend of mine, simply because it was a good buy. Leibisch said the ones in similar quality that are higher priced are so because they're Argyle, but they couldn't definitively state why they had a premium. My friend bought the less expensive FCD because, in comparison to the Argyle stones that had the same GIA rating and looked identical, it was a great buy. Similar carat weight, cut, etc. . .

I don't think auction houses that sell FCD's really care if the stones are Argyle or other mines either, do they?

Go figure. . .

Threadjack away.

I think its the idea that it became KNOWN for well saturated diamonds, so its sought after dispute reproducing the same quality.

Kashmir became well known for high quality sapphire. NOW people can get more just by attaching the label, dispute the fact that particular stone may not have the same quality as the rough that made the location desirable.

 

[chatbandit]

stunning greys!! dying to learn more. that first knife edge emerald cut one (or is it an ascher?) is drool-worthy.

 

[kenny]

I have a few items of Tiffany jewelry, myself, but I'd actually prefer they be nameless, I just liked the designs. The name was a huge hit AGAINST them, not for them.

But yes, there are people out there who only buy Tiffany because they must have the little blue box. And only buy Cartier because they must have the red box.

But I don't consider that to be the same as a location a stone is mined from. A name of a store is a marketing tool. It's not an indication of quality. We expect certain things from a blue velvet Kashmir sapphire, because it's how it came out of the ground, and stones from that local have certain characteristics. Man made stuff, especially across a huge chain? Not so much.

Yeah, me too.
I carefully remove the Ralph Lauren logo of that moron on a horse with a scalpel from the Polo shirts I find at thrift stores before wearing them.

I won't being a walking ad unless the company mails me monthly checks.

 

[kenny]

The Argyle mine is running dry and they are hustling for every last dollar before they pack it up and go home.
Argyle is even issuing Argyle certificates for diamonds with Brown.

Would I buy one?
No way, but the Argyle feeding frenzy has been crazy.
Argyle doesn't care what you or I think.
It's about money and for some buyers, as with real estate, it's location location location.

This reminds me of Tiffany selling sterling silver jewelry.
People get the name they crave for a relatively low-cost item.

So normally I've seen pink diamonds from other locations that look just as nice as the ones from Argyle (not talking tender quality material here). Therefore, I still don't get it because Muzo, Kashmir, and Burma are all locations famed for the quality of their emeralds, sapphires and rubies respectively, so I get the premium in the cases of those gems, in fine quality.

Sorry to thread jack from the "grey" subject, but I once pointed out a very high quality relatively inexpensive pink diamond on Liebisch's site to a friend of mine, simply because it was a good buy. Leibisch said the ones in similar quality that are higher priced are so because they're Argyle, but they couldn't definitively state why they had a premium. My friend bought the less expensive FCD because, in comparison to the Argyle stones that had the same GIA rating and looked identical, it was a great buy. Similar carat weight, cut, etc. . .

I don't think auction houses that sell FCD's really care if the stones are Argyle or other mines either, do they?

Go figure. . .

Keep in mind zillions of people are, hum, less-informed than you, and are Argyle-crazy.
Also keep in mind supply and demand.
Lastly, the world is not the way it should be; it is the way it is.

Location can drive up prices.
It is not rational.

Zillions shop at WalMart.
Zillions eat at McDonald's.
I won't patronize either … but I accept that they are providing what zillions want.

 

[minousbijoux]

The Argyle mine is running dry and they are hustling for every last dollar before they pack it up and go home.
Argyle is even issuing Argyle certificates for diamonds with Brown.

Would I buy one?
No way, but the Argyle feeding frenzy has been crazy.
Argyle doesn't care what you or I think.
It's about money and for some buyers, as with real estate, it's location location location.

This reminds me of Tiffany selling sterling silver jewelry.
People get the name they crave for a relatively low-cost item.

So normally I've seen pink diamonds from other locations that look just as nice as the ones from Argyle (not talking tender quality material here). Therefore, I still don't get it because Muzo, Kashmir, and Burma are all locations famed for the quality of their emeralds, sapphires and rubies respectively, so I get the premium in the cases of those gems, in fine quality.

Sorry to thread jack from the "grey" subject, but I once pointed out a very high quality relatively inexpensive pink diamond on Liebisch's site to a friend of mine, simply because it was a good buy. Leibisch said the ones in similar quality that are higher priced are so because they're Argyle, but they couldn't definitively state why they had a premium. My friend bought the less expensive FCD because, in comparison to the Argyle stones that had the same GIA rating and looked identical, it was a great buy. Similar carat weight, cut, etc. . .

I don't think auction houses that sell FCD's really care if the stones are Argyle or other mines either, do they?

Go figure. . .

Threadjack away.

I think its the idea that it became KNOWN for well saturated diamonds, so its sought after dispute reproducing the same quality.

Kashmir became well known for high quality sapphire. NOW people can get more just by attaching the label, dispute the fact that particular stone may not have the same quality as the rough that made the location desirable.

I disagree with you on this, Niel, as I don't think this is necessarily a true statement. The value of the origin/provenance holds true all things being equal; if, as in your example, you have a subpar Kashmir stone, then the name does not carry much weight. An educated buyer will not buy for name alone, but will insist on quality.

 

[Niel]

The Argyle mine is running dry and they are hustling for every last dollar before they pack it up and go home.
Argyle is even issuing Argyle certificates for diamonds with Brown.

Would I buy one?
No way, but the Argyle feeding frenzy has been crazy.
Argyle doesn't care what you or I think.
It's about money and for some buyers, as with real estate, it's location location location.

This reminds me of Tiffany selling sterling silver jewelry.
People get the name they crave for a relatively low-cost item.

So normally I've seen pink diamonds from other locations that look just as nice as the ones from Argyle (not talking tender quality material here). Therefore, I still don't get it because Muzo, Kashmir, and Burma are all locations famed for the quality of their emeralds, sapphires and rubies respectively, so I get the premium in the cases of those gems, in fine quality.

Sorry to thread jack from the "grey" subject, but I once pointed out a very high quality relatively inexpensive pink diamond on Liebisch's site to a friend of mine, simply because it was a good buy. Leibisch said the ones in similar quality that are higher priced are so because they're Argyle, but they couldn't definitively state why they had a premium. My friend bought the less expensive FCD because, in comparison to the Argyle stones that had the same GIA rating and looked identical, it was a great buy. Similar carat weight, cut, etc. . .

I don't think auction houses that sell FCD's really care if the stones are Argyle or other mines either, do they?

Go figure. . .

Threadjack away.

I think its the idea that it became KNOWN for well saturated diamonds, so its sought after dispute reproducing the same quality.

Kashmir became well known for high quality sapphire. NOW people can get more just by attaching the label, dispute the fact that particular stone may not have the same quality as the rough that made the location desirable.

I disagree with you on this, Niel, as I don't think this is necessarily a true statement. The value of the origin/provenance holds true all things being equal; if, as in your example, you have a subpar Kashmir stone, then the name does not carry much weight. An educated buyer will not buy for name alone, but will insist on quality.

You're making an important assumption that I think its at the key of Kenny's point. Not everyonr is as educated as you.
People are told Kashmir sapphires= good. And to many that's all they know.

 

[NKOTB]

On the topic of grey spinels (I've never seen a grey diamond)...For me, it's all about tone. I've had several pass through my hands at this point, and while they've all been beautiful in their own way, I'm a lighter tone fan at heart. So, I think that's important to figure out, whether for you, or your friend, or SIL, or whoever...

 

[Niel]

On the topic of grey spinels (I've never seen a grey diamond)...For me, it's all about tone. I've had several pass through my hands at this point, and while they've all been beautiful in their own way, I'm a lighter tone fan at heart. So, I think that's important to figure out, whether for you, or your friend, or SIL, or whoever...

So to comment on that last bit.

My sil hasn't anything to do with this. That's a finished sapphire ring

My friend and I were discussing this and it made me curious and interested in the topic. And when I want to learn more about a topic, I come to you fine ladies and gents

 

[minousbijoux]

The Argyle mine is running dry and they are hustling for every last dollar before they pack it up and go home.
Argyle is even issuing Argyle certificates for diamonds with Brown.

Would I buy one?
No way, but the Argyle feeding frenzy has been crazy.
Argyle doesn't care what you or I think.
It's about money and for some buyers, as with real estate, it's location location location.

This reminds me of Tiffany selling sterling silver jewelry.
People get the name they crave for a relatively low-cost item.

So normally I've seen pink diamonds from other locations that look just as nice as the ones from Argyle (not talking tender quality material here). Therefore, I still don't get it because Muzo, Kashmir, and Burma are all locations famed for the quality of their emeralds, sapphires and rubies respectively, so I get the premium in the cases of those gems, in fine quality.

Sorry to thread jack from the "grey" subject, but I once pointed out a very high quality relatively inexpensive pink diamond on Liebisch's site to a friend of mine, simply because it was a good buy. Leibisch said the ones in similar quality that are higher priced are so because they're Argyle, but they couldn't definitively state why they had a premium. My friend bought the less expensive FCD because, in comparison to the Argyle stones that had the same GIA rating and looked identical, it was a great buy. Similar carat weight, cut, etc. . .

I don't think auction houses that sell FCD's really care if the stones are Argyle or other mines either, do they?

Go figure. . .

Threadjack away.

I think its the idea that it became KNOWN for well saturated diamonds, so its sought after dispute reproducing the same quality.

Kashmir became well known for high quality sapphire. NOW people can get more just by attaching the label, dispute the fact that particular stone may not have the same quality as the rough that made the location desirable.

I disagree with you on this, Niel, as I don't think this is necessarily a true statement. The value of the origin/provenance holds true all things being equal; if, as in your example, you have a subpar Kashmir stone, then the name does not carry much weight. An educated buyer will not buy for name alone, but will insist on quality.

You're making an important assumption that I think its at the key of Kenny's point. Not everyonr is as educated as you.
People are told Kashmir sapphires= good. And to many that's all they know.

And you are making an assumption as well - that people will know just enough to have an awareness of the importance of the location but not enough to know what is good or acceptable? And further, that they will shell out significant money based solely on a name. Nope, doubt it. Anyone who has explored it enough to know significance of origin will also have some idea of quality. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but as a rule, people do their due diligence before it comes to spending a lot.

 

[FrekeChild]

On the topic of grey spinels (I've never seen a grey diamond)...For me, it's all about tone. I've had several pass through my hands at this point, and while they've all been beautiful in their own way, I'm a lighter tone fan at heart. So, I think that's important to figure out, whether for you, or your friend, or SIL, or whoever...

So to comment on that last bit.

My sil hasn't anything to do with this. That's a finished sapphire ring

My friend and I were discussing this and it made me curious and interested in the topic. And when I want to learn more about a topic, I come to you fine ladies and gents

I think NKOTB is speaking in generalizations, since you've been posting so much about your SIL's ring, your own colored stone preferences and now for your friend. She's trying to say that each person needs to learn their tolerance, and preference, because everyone is going to be different, and that it's good to be educated.

No need to get defensive!

 

[chatbandit]

^ I didn't take any of what was said as defensive! I think we are addressing all angles of a fascinating branding problem. When you come down to it the locations or sub-types end up becoming adjectives to better sell something to those who don't know much -- frequently used with abandon by bold sales people who are hoping to get a higher price or cultivate a better image of quality for the same stuff. For examples outside gems:

-Tahitian vanilla bean
-Scottish wool
-Kobe beef
-heirloom tomatoes
-Mongolian cashmere
-Hungarian Paprika
-Meyer lemon
-Saigon cinnamon
-Egyptian cotton

 

[chrono]

VelouriaL,
I haven't seen any steely looking ECs and I've seen and owned quite a few.

Freke,
Unfortunately, I've seen brownish pink or non-neon pink/red spinels from the Mahenge region advertised with the same neon pricing purely due to the Mahenge reputation/name.

Kenny,
I'm with you on location. It is what it is and there are too many examples where the premium isn't justified but uneducated people are willing to pay the markup. Therefore vendors will continue to charge the premium as long as the market will bear it. The expensive brownish Argyles are disappointing.

I was perusing DB, LT and other websites for a different gemstone and noticed that the price of precision cut gray spinels are getting expensive. Has anyone ever considered buying a honking extremely clean light coloured but grayish spinel on eBay for dirt cheap, then sending it to a lapidary to precision cut it? I would think the weight loss will be worth it, given that the original cost is very low. The risk of the recut would also be low since we aren't trying to preserve colour but to bring out the gray.

 

[Niel]

I find it genuinely surprising that some of you would think that location alone doesn't drive pricing.


I'd prefer to dampen this threadjack any further though. I 'd rather this grey thread be about the interesting original topic.


Good thinking chrono. I has the same though but no little about how successful a recut is.

 

[minousbijoux]

[quote="Niel|1385557234|3563806"]I find it genuinely surprising that some of you would think that location alone doesn't drive pricing.


I'd prefer to dampen this threadjack any further though. I 'd rather this grey thread be about the interesting original topic.


Good thinking chrono. I has the same though but no little about how successful a recut is.[/quote]

Niel: I am very interested in seeing examples of what you speak of - where provenance alone is enough to draw the selling price high on a mediocre quality colored stone - not diamonds, but colored stones. I find it interesting that you - by your own admission - know little about colored stones but then make claims with little support and are not willing to reconsider. I seldom see cases where what you speak of is true so I respectfully ask you to point them out, or to please stop making it sound as if this is routinely done - I certainly do not want to perpetuate this point of view for any newcomers who are out to learn.

 

[minousbijoux]

Freke,
Unfortunately, I've seen brownish pink or non-neon pink/red spinels from the Mahenge region advertised with the same neon pricing purely due to the Mahenge reputation/name.

I was perusing DB, LT and other websites for a different gemstone and noticed that the price of precision cut gray spinels are getting expensive. Has anyone ever considered buying a honking extremely clean light coloured but grayish spinel on eBay for dirt cheap, then sending it to a lapidary to precision cut it? I would think the weight loss will be worth it, given that the original cost is very low. The risk of the recut would also be low since we aren't trying to preserve colour but to bring out the gray.

Chrono: please point these out if you see them on a regular basis. Its one thing to try and sell them at this price, but as you well know, actually selling them for a ridiculous asking price is another kettle of fish entirely.

As to your buying grey cheap and recutting, you know this occurs as we have already had on this board alone three recent examples, including PB's she recut in this thread. We had someone recut one and use the resulting platinum grey as her engagement stone and a few more that I cannot recall at this point but a search would reveal. It is definitely one alternative - an excellent one at that - to paying the escalating prices that seem to be occurring given their popularity.

 

[chrono]

Chrono: please point these out if you see them on a regular basis. Its one thing to try and sell them at this price, but as you well know, actually selling them for a ridiculous asking price is another kettle of fish entirely.

Minou,
I think Niel would appreciate it if you started a new thread for this topic. I may not be an active participant in that thread though, particularly as it pertains to pointing out specific pink/red Mahenge spinels because by doing so, quite a few favourite PS vendors and their long-time customers might get their feathers ruffled.

 

[minousbijoux]

No, I don't think its necessary. You are speaking of something different Chrono, where what is left is lesser quality material and the going price happens to now be high across the board. The real deal, like your Mahenge spinel (quite expensive to begin with), would now command astronomical prices by comparison. A case where all boats rise. But no one will pay more for a mediocre Mahenge spinel than a top notch red spinel from another location, like Burma - that is my point.