God-daughter is doing online pawn

[Cerulean]

Not all women who choose sex work as a profession are victims. I think assuming that is a big misstep here. Some women do have choices, some women are agents and determine the own course of their lives.

I mentioned my friend who was a dominatrix. Super smart, could’ve basically done anything. She created an incredible career for herself as a fine artist and dominatrix, and she sure makes more money than I ever will! She has strict parameters with her clients and will drop them like a rock if they ever so much as tip toe across her boundaries. I never really worried about her safety to be honest (not any more than any of my other female friends just existing in the world) because she knew what she was doing.

Sex work isn’t evil or morally wrong. There are absolutely victims in the industry, and young women who lack choices I’m sure can wind up in bad places in the periphery of the sex work industry. Women are predated on in a lot of industries because women are just more vulnerable.

The more decriminalization and regulation around sex work the better, IMO. But then again I also feel the same way about a lot of things, including drug use. I can’t imagine why we wouldn’t want women to have more legal protection in sex work, but it fits the Judeo-Christian paradigm Americans apply to just about everything…not everything we disagree with translate to moral failure and decay. People make choices. I’d be unhappy about my GD too, because as mentioned, she was denied choices in her earliest sexual experiences. Who knows if she would have made the same choices as an adult, but now we will never know, will we?

 

[Jambalaya]

Not all women who choose sex work as a profession are victims. I think assuming that is a big misstep here. Some women do have choices, some women are agents and determine the own course of their lives.

I think that's where we differ. I believe that the vast, vast majority are having a terrible time in s*x work, that they wouldn't be doing it if they had more choices, and that abuse and exploitation is RIFE. Obviously I can't know that for sure since I can't ask every worker, but it's just about impossible for me to imagine that the majority of women actually want to do this work. After all, if it's so fine and dandy, why don't more women do it? Why are such a small percentage of women working as s*x workers even in countries where it's legal, you know?

I think that people like your friend are unicorns.

The moral debate is another facet. I don't believe in it morally, either, because I think it's bad for the workers and bad for society. S*x is SO much safer emotionally and physically when it's not a financial transaction, when it's done purely because the partners want to. There's a viewpoint espoused by feminists such as Andrea Dworkin that says s*x work is a form of violence against women and that the money acts as a tool of oppression, especially because SO MANY s*x workers, more than half, have a past that includes abuse. I concur in that I don't see how it can be a healthy choice for the VAST majority of women.

Other reasons I think s*x work is wrong is that it sends a message that women are objects who can be bought and sold, it undermines regular relationships, which can lead to the break ups of children's homes, spreads disease, and creates ideal condition for abuse. It's bad for society and bad for almost all of the workers, imo.

Nevada is the only state where brothels are legal, and it has the fourth-highest r*pe rate in America. Maybe there are other factors, but I find those two facts appearing together in one state interesting. The group of feminists that I refer to think that the legality if s*x work in Nevada creates negativity for all women, which makes sense to me.

However, I'm someone who is deeply romantic, and I can imagine few things worse than having to have s*x for money. So perhaps I'm just not wired to understand. As in, I literally cannot understand it.

 

[telephone89]

Obviously I can't know that for sure since I can't ask every worker, but it's just about impossible for me to imagine that the majority of women actually want to do this work. After all, if it's so fine and dandy, why don't more women do it? Why are such a small percentage of women working as s*x workers even in countries where it's legal, you know?

Several of us have told you we know people personally involved and they are not victims, you ignore this. It's also extremely possible (and highly likely) that even more people you know are actually involved, and aren't upfront about it because of the stigma and obviously your attitude towards it. You think OF made it big based on just a few people? Hardly. A quick google search shows there are 1.1M content creators on OF, with 7-8k new creators signing up DAILY. That's not exactly a small number!

You also keep espousing Andrea Dworkin, who you seem to know nothing about other than she dislikes sex work. Did you just google feminists who dislike prostitution or something? She also wrote that sex itself is subordination to men, and all sex is coercive and degrading to women. Does that fit your "romantic" narrative? SO YEAH, not gonna take much of what she says about pornography very seriously. Do some actual research.

 

[Jambalaya]

^^ I've done what research I can in the last 2-3 days (when I found out about my GD) while working. I haven't ignored what posters have said about knowing people who have a positive experience in the industry; I've said that I think it's uncommon.

I didn't know that about Dworkin. Info. is from this link. Sorry about the p word. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_prostitution

You don't have to do a ton of research, though, to know that s*x work is overwhelmingly a negative experience for women.

 

[lovedogs]

Obviously I can't know that for sure since I can't ask every worker, but it's just about impossible for me to imagine that the majority of women actually want to do this work. After all, if it's so fine and dandy, why don't more women do it? Why are such a small percentage of women working as s*x workers even in countries where it's legal, you know?

Several of us have told you we know people personally involved and they are not victims, you ignore this. It's also extremely possible (and highly likely) that even more people you know are actually involved, and aren't upfront about it because of the stigma and obviously your attitude towards it. You think OF made it big based on just a few people? Hardly. A quick google search shows there are 1.1M content creators on OF, with 7-8k new creators signing up DAILY. That's not exactly a small number!

You also keep espousing Andrea Dworkin, who you seem to know nothing about other than she dislikes sex work. Did you just google feminists who dislike prostitution or something? She also wrote that sex itself is subordination to men, and all sex is coercive and degrading to women. Does that fit your "romantic" narrative? SO YEAH, not gonna take much of what she says about pornography very seriously. Do some actual research.

Doing actual research wouldn't allow OP to create drama by shouting online.

 

[Jambalaya]

Oh @lovedogs, come on! I've raised a lot of good points about the negatives of the s*x industry. But if all you're going to do is peanut-throw, then you're not adding very much to the discussion.

 

[telephone89]

^^ I've done what research I can in the last 2-3 days (when I found out about my GD) while working. I haven't ignored what posters have said about knowing people who have a positive experience in the industry; I've said that I think it's uncommon.

I didn't know that about Dworkin. Info. is from this link. Sorry about the p word. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_prostitution

You don't have to do a ton of research, though, to know that s*x work is overwhelmingly a negative experience for women.

Is it? You've also claimed just a few posts back that "most" sex workers are abused and if any one supports sex work that they are "anti woman". How is that for adding to a conversation? Sweeping judgments and name calling serve no one if you're actually trying to have a discussion, which you just poo-pooed lovedogs for.

 

[telephone89]

http://nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/sg_to_challenging_nordic_model_prf03.pdf

Here is an interesting research paper done on the issues of the "nordic" model if you're interested. Initially it sounds productive and helpful, but it hasn't worked out so brilliantly.

 

[Jambalaya]

The "strong" parts of my writing are in relation to my opinions, which are strongly held. In this case, it's that I think s*x work is horrible and mostly, extremely harmful to women. This isn't a controversial viewpoint, and there's so much that bears it out. I asked specific questions about issues such as abuse, but I don't get anything sensible back from some posters. People can answer those opinions, but they'd rather attack the fact that I hold those opinions, or just attack me. (Which is OK; I don't mind.) I invited @lovedogs to the dance - see quote below - but she just accused me of creating drama instead of responding to my inquiries about what she thought.

^^@lovedogs, why don't you address some of the real points that I bring up, instead of just rejecting everything and being rude?

What do you think of the points I mentioned about the high rates of negatives outcomes and experiences that I pointed out above? And the fact that an ideal s*x work situation isn't impossible but is not common?

What do you think about the high rates of abuse suffered by the workers? What do you think of my point about the type of client that s*x work too-often attracts?

And what do you think of the Nordic model of decrim? I support it, because it means the workers can't be penalised and can get easier access to support and healthcare, but it's easier to prosecute customers for abuse, because you can haul them in just for doing it. So you have a reason to hold them while you question them about abuse charges. And the worker has no reason not to go to the police.

In an ideal world, women would have better choices. Seriously, how many women do you think would remain in s*x work if they won the lottery? Maybe some, but probably hardly any.

 

[Jambalaya]

http://nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/sg_to_challenging_nordic_model_prf03.pdf
Here is an interesting research paper done on the issues of the "nordic" model if you're interested. Initially it sounds productive and helpful, but it hasn't worked out so brilliantly.

Excellent; thanks for this. I'll read it tonight.

 

[lovedogs]

my issue is that it doesn't seem like OP has any interest in a real discussion. She continuously says how harmful s*x work is (and how awful p*rn is), and then quotes feminists who also agree with her. Zero research cited, no data. Just anecdotes and confirmatory "evidence"

Actual research here: https://www.aclu.org/report/sex-work-decriminalization-answer-what-research-tells-us

Note that none of us are claming that s*x work is universally some wonderful thing in which no one is ever victimized or abused. However, the complete lack of respect for this work from the OP is harmful and stigmatizing. And the idea that s*x work is inherently awful and everyone wants to get out of it is just false. Again, I default back to thinking this has much more to do with OPs issues surrounding s*x rather than anythhing to do with p*rn or s*x work itself.

edit. Another harmful and silly thing that keeps getting thrown around by the OP is the idea that only women do s*x work. That is untrue and reflects and outdated view of what s*x work is and who engages in it.

 

[chemgirl]

A little late to the conversation, but two of my friends were on only fans during the covid lockdown so it’s something that’s come up in conversation at my house. It was a little hard to wrap my head around it at first. Partially because it’s awkward to think of certain people in your life in a sexual way. Ultimately it’s fairly low risk and they needed the money.

There is a very high degree of control over your content and no need to post anything that you feel uncomfortable with. I can see how it can feel empowering to some women. We’re all different.

 

[Jambalaya]

^^ I guess for me, the discussion has segued into in-person s*x work.

 

[telephone89]

^^ I guess for me, the discussion has segued into in-person s*x work.

which isn't what your GD is involved in, so doesnt actually seem that relevant?

 

[Jambalaya]

edit. Another harmful and silly thing that keeps getting thrown around by the OP is the idea that only women do s*x work. That is untrue and reflects and outdated view of what s*x work is and who engages in it.

Right, but s*x services are overwhelmingly provided by women and bought by men. Also, female workers are more at risk because there's usually a much greater physical difference between worker and customer. Of course, I'm sure that male workers can be abused too.

 

[Jambalaya]

which isn't what your GD is involved in, so doesnt actually seem that relevant?

It's all part of the same industry. And for my GD, I think it could be dangerous because it's her real name, and psychologically because of her past, and because of the predators she could meet who might gain her trust and persuade her to meet in-person with offers of cash.

 

[Jambalaya]

Actual research here: https://www.aclu.org/report/sex-work-decriminalization-answer-what-research-tells-us

Thank you; I will read this.

 

[Jambalaya]

Again, I default back to thinking this has much more to do with OPs issues surrounding s*x rather than anythhing to do with p*rn or s*x work itself.

I have issues with the abuse and exploitation of women that goes on in the industry. I have a visceral reaction against the industry, that's certainly true. And I didn't know how much I hated it until 2-3 days ago, when I discovered my GD's new account.

 

[Cerulean]

I have issues with the abuse and exploitation of women that goes on in the industry. I have a visceral reaction against the industry, that's certainly true. And I didn't know how much I hated it until 2-3 days ago, when I discovered my GD's new account.

Let’s just say your GD is doing this the “wrong” reasons or it negatively impacts her life (which I don’t think any of us, expect maybe you, can even assess)… you have to separate your feelings about your GD from feelings projected onto an entire industry. The big bad industry didn’t swallow your GD and make her do bad, immoral things. It’s just…an industry. Full of good and bad, and everything in between. It’s a hodgepodge of unregulated and regulated, and it’s huge!!! If she acts recklessly, she’s accountable as a legal adult. And if she feels great and it brings her joy, we’ll I guess good for her…even I don’t personally understand, I won’t write off the whole industry as bad and ugly.

It reminds me of the convo about her older “boyfriend” (to me…a predator). You felt fine about it as long as it was okay from your view and it didn’t disturb your perception of a healthy relationship.

Please try to not swirl separate issues with your feelings about a specific situation. I get you’re upset.

 

[LLJsmom]

This was a very interesting video I stumbled across recently. Enlightening and sad.

@Jambalaya, I would be concerned and sad, for many reasons that others have already mentioned.

Sorry, this video does not address your question, but rather than the exploitation of women. My take away is that many women, if they had other viable options, would not choose sex work. In your GD's case, she seems to be making the decision clearly and independently. It's just sad that society is such that there is a market for accounts. But it also is what it is. I don't know what can be done about it, when people are legally consenting. And even with the risks, I guess it's safer than in person contact.

 

[Jambalaya]

Let’s just say your GD is doing this the “wrong” reasons or it negatively impacts her life (which I don’t think any of us, expect maybe you, can even assess)… you have to separate your feelings about your GD from feelings projected onto an entire industry. The big bad industry didn’t swallow your GD and make her do bad, immoral things. It’s just…an industry. Full of good and bad, and everything in between. It’s a hodgepodge of unregulated and regulated, and it’s huge!!! If she acts recklessly, she’s accountable as a legal adult. And if she feels great and it brings her joy, we’ll I guess good for her…even I don’t personally understand, I won’t write off the whole industry as bad and ugly.

It reminds me of the convo about her older “boyfriend” (to me…a predator). You felt fine about it as long as it was okay from your view and it didn’t disturb your perception of a healthy relationship.

Please try to not swirl separate issues with your feelings about a specific situation. I get you’re upset.

Thanks for this, Cerulean. I am very upset, it's true.

One thing that sways me toward my strong feelings against the industry is reading the personal testimonies of ex-workers. They're not good. But maybe I can try to find some positive stories.

In terms of it being just another industry, isn't it true that there are really high levels of abuse in s*x work? I thought it was true, and that's a major, major sticking point with me about the industry - the abuse of women. (And male workers too, of course. Just saying women bc the industry is mostly women.) But maybe there are many positive experiences out there that don't make it into print.

I'm also swayed by my own reaction to the thought of having s*x with someone I wouldn't otherwise, for money. That thought is so repellant to me that I can't really get past it. I'd have thought that many s*x workers have to dissociate to a great degree to get through it. But perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you get used to it? And I'm sure some clients are less repellant than others.

ETA: I wasn't OK with her previous relationship - I think a 30 yo man with a 14-16 yo is gross. I wanted to believe her when she said she was no victim. Now, with this latest development, I'm not so sure about that. I HOPE it's happening from a place of empowerment. I really, really, really hope so.

 

[Jambalaya]

@LLJsmom - thank you! I will watch it.

Lots of material supplied for me to read/watch tonight - thank you, all! Maybe I can find some way to feel better about my GD's new account, even though I'm desperately worried for her.

 

[Cerulean]

Thanks for this, Cerulean. I am very upset, it's true.

One thing that sways me toward my strong feelings against the industry is reading the personal testimonies of ex-workers. They're not good. But maybe I can try to find some positive stories.

In terms of it being just another industry, isn't it true that there are really high levels of abuse in s*x work? I thought it was true, and that's a major, major sticking point with me about the industry - the abuse of women. (And male workers too, of course. Just saying women bc the industry is mostly women.) But maybe there are many positive experiences out there that don't make it into print.

I'm also swayed by my own reaction to the thought of having s*x with someone I wouldn't otherwise, for money. That thought is so repellant to me that I can't really get past it. I'd have thought that many s*x workers have to dissociate to a great degree to get through it. But perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you get used to it? And I'm sure some clients are less repellant than others.

ETA: I wasn't OK with her previous relationship - I think a 30 yo man with a 14-16 yo is gross. I wanted to believe her when she said she was no victim. Now, with this latest development, I'm not so sure about that. I HOPE it's happening from a place of empowerment. I really, really, really hope so.

It’s good right now that she’s not doing anything in person, although I’d be very concerned about her revealing her identity.

Sex work and how societies have dealt with it is complicated. It always has been. I think what makes it a perilous industry compared to others is that lack of protection that workers have, and the stigma attached to it. If everything was legal, workers could get health insurance, to manage their own physical and mental health more effectively. And they could report crimes without risk of getting in their own legal trouble. (This is for non legal work). Because it has to stay hidden, so too are the violations of boundaries and trauma. The hiddenness for legal work…its the stigma. Because your GD has revealed her identity, realistically it might be hard for her to get a job in certain industries. It’s just the honest truth.

Whether people have dissociate, I couldn’t say. But there are certain fields that have a higher risk of emotional and physical harm, and not everyone is cut out to deal with the stress. It’s a customer service job on steroids (I for one abhor working directly with clients so I can’t imagine enjoying anything about it). If you think about a social worker - or a cop - or a therapist - or even a teacher. You are exposed to details about people’s lives, sometimes intimate ones, and need to be actively involved. I’m not going to pretend that sex work doesn’t have unique risks, but I imagine the industry is on a spectrum of good and bad, despite that. On the “good” spectrum - high earners who are well adjusted and have access to the healthcare and emotional support they need. I think you can imagine the “bad” end of the spectrum. I’m guessing a lot of people land somewhere in the middle, and it would depend on the specific “sub specialty” a lot.

I’m not going to pretend that I admire sex work or understand motivations for doing it, but I also have no desire to punish people for doing it either.

Have you talked to her about it? I’d try to be a non judgmental as possible and just be supportive.

 

[GeliL]

I said I wasn't going to participate, but there are stuff that's been called out that is difficult to ignore.

@Jambalaya, you are upset and worried. We all understand that. But it's very unfair to say "well obviously if you advocate for sex workers then you don't care about your own daughter (and ALL women's) wellbeing". We have the best of intentions and would like to respect all women for their agency and choice, just as you do.

We are just saying that as bad as the reality is for women in s*x work, there are people who are trying to change it for the better by improving the environment, and that their efforts should not be dismissed. As much as you finding the idea repulsive, there are workers who get to choose their own client, do something they love, not FOR money, but WHILE making money. Is there abuse in the industry and many are suffering for it? Yes, but you can't say just because there's abuse in the industry the industry shouldn't exist. I mean, if the government is abusive towards its people, should we not even have a government? It is due to the efforts of many people and many many years of advocacy and refinement that humanity gets to the point it is today, and even now not everyone is happy about everything. We do not live in some lala land where we think there's no abuse in the industry, we are saying that you can't call the minority who are doing well for themselves or anyone who supports an improved environment "anti-women" just because they work and advocate the good part of the industry. You've read about testimonies on the bad side, and there are testimonies posted in this thread that represent the good side. We most definitely do support criminalizing abusive and in-consensual s*x work and think that whoever wants to get out should receive help, but not everyone in the industry is mentally unstable and want to get out. They love s*x and would like to be respected while doing it, and while it is an uphill battle that sometimes ends in failure, they don't deserve persecution and discrimination just because they work in the industry.

Whether you think that environment can ever be improved, or you think well having s*x for money is just gross and I can't imagine anyone wanting to do that, please keep in mind that it is your opinion and not everyone thinks that. You don't love p*rn, but there are people who do and it's disrespectful to call them gross because of what they like. I don't want anyone I don't love touching me, and if my daughter becomes a s*x worker I certainly wouldn't be comfortable because I myself finds the notion awkward and uncomfortable, but I can understand if she or someone else out there finds it enjoyable and I would be more accepting of it if I know she's being safe and can handle herself well (and I would doubly, triply make sure of that because the cases can indeed be rare). There are nuances and many layers to a topic like this and to deny all nuances and outliers is very hurtful, which I hope you can understand. I originally participated in this conversation to share another perspective, I didn't come here to have any assumptions made about me because of my opinions.

I might as well respond to your response to the other post I made: Let's assume that the likelihood of stealthing and abuse is much higher when money is involved, which I am not informed enough to know whether it is. But even if it is, there are s*x workers that take a lot of preventive measures to prevent that from happening and as others have said, just outright reject the client for no other reason other than they don't feel like doing whatever they said to do. Yes, it is rare, and yes, we should help the workers who feel like they are at the mercy of their clients and are absolutely miserable get out of that environment. But that doesn't mean these cases doesn't exist and the industry nowadays has been slowly changing to encourage consent.

 

[seaurchin]

On a more personal note, if your god daughter's life choices have too negative an effect on you, you may be better off to just back away from her.

There are some people I finally learned to keep my distance from, mentally as well as physically, because I found their constant chaos and drama too upsetting and exhausting and didn't want to get swept up in it anymore. Just a thought there, if it fits. Good luck.

 

[Jambalaya]

@GeliL and @Cerulean, thank you so much for writing those long and thoughtful posts. They are very helpful to me. Feel a bit calmer having read them! There is lots to think about here, and I really hope I can feel more dispassionate about the topic soon. It's hard, though.

I apologize that I said people who support the industry are anti-woman. You said it was hurtful, and that hadn't occurred to me. I would never want to hurt anyone's feelings. It just seems that the workers in it are so often in dire straits, in one way or another. I'll try to find some positive accounts.

If there are women who are operating safely, for whom it is a free choice, who enjoy it and are not abused, I support that. But obviously I don't support instances where the worker is in bad circumstances or is there from necessity rather than choice.

 

[Jambalaya]

@seaurchin You raise a good point. But imagine if she took my moving away from her as judgement? And that her trauma is the reason behind her new venture? I'm not going to say anything until I've got my own head straight about it and am feeling less emotional.

 

[GeliL]

@GeliL and @Cerulean, thank you so much for writing those long and thoughtful posts. They are very helpful to me. Feel a bit calmer having read them! There is lots to think about here, and I really hope I can feel more dispassionate about the topic soon. It's hard, though.

I apologize that I said people who support the industry are anti-woman. You said it was hurtful, and that hadn't occurred to me. I would never want to hurt anyone's feelings. It just seems that the workers in it are so often in dire straits, in one way or another. I'll try to find some positive accounts.

If there are women who are operating safely, for whom it is a free choice, who enjoy it and are not abused, I support that. But obviously I don't support instances where the worker is in bad circumstances or is there from necessity rather than choice.

I'd like to add that just as there are people who wouldn't be doing s*x work if given another choice, there are also people who WOULD be doing it, out of personal interest, if it wasn't so ripe with abuse. That was originally why OF got popular, because it's easier to do it safely there. Just for context: OF wasn't created for s*x workers, it was just for people to give their most loyal fans exclusive content, but because of how safe it was, it became a platform for s*x workers.

Thank you for reading whatever novel I was writing. I just think that all who disagreed with you on this thread do not wish to be misunderstood, so I wanted to make it clear to you what the stances are. It's easy to get defensive and emotional and sometimes it's hard to have a conversation when both parties feel offended, but please know that not one of the posters said that you should not be worried about her or you shouldn't care about her safety. But I definitely think if you are that concerned you should talk to her about it. Maybe she's linking her OF account to her real name because she only wants people who know her through that account, including her real name, have access to it? I can't imagine you'll happen to stumble onto someone's instagram at random. Maybe her account is also protected so that those she doesn't approve of cannot follow her. I never approve people I don't know on instagram, and I am also using my real name.

 

[Jambalaya]

there are also people who WOULD be doing it, out of personal interest, if it wasn't so ripe with abuse.

That's very true.

Thank you for your reply! Again, it's very helpful

About IG, her regular account and her account that links to the OF page are not private, so anyone can see anything that she posts, and anyone can follow her. (Of course, she could block someone, but my point is that hers are not protected accounts.)

I'm guessing she uses her real name because if she used a different one, nobody would know her under that. I don't want to post her field of work because it's an identifying factor, but she's someone who has one internet identity, and it's the real her, and her work is somewhat public in nature. If she set up a different internet persona, she'd have to start from scratch, and she wouldn't be able to use the aspects of herself that make her stand out. It's difficult to explain without saying what field she's in, but I guess she wants to utilize the web presence that she already has, and the fact that everyone will know about her OF and who she is IRL doesn't seem to bother her.

 

[ForteKitty]

It's all part of the same industry. And for my GD, I think it could be dangerous because it's her real name, and psychologically because of her past, and because of the predators she could meet who might gain her trust and persuade her to meet in-person with offers of cash.

Can I ask why she didn't use an alias IG business account and OnlyFans? Like Sparkly Diamond or something. If she wants to advertise her OF, she can still do so, but on her business account, then her real name wouldn't be used at all. Does OF verify each account and only allow legal full names to be used?