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Giant cloud or dirty diamond? - VS2 clarity

brandonmh

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Mar 31, 2016
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18
I have stumbled upon a possible promising diamond but the picture concerns me. There appears to be a giant cloud covering an entire facet. I cannot tell if this is a large cloud or just a dirty diamond, as there also appear to be dirt specks all over. It also worries me because it says the clarity grade is based on clouds that aren't shown in the plot. I included the pictures and cert below! Can a VS2 cloud really be this bad?

g-vs2-1.png

_1101.png
 

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CareBear

Brilliant_Rock
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The report says 'clarity grading based on clouds not shown', so what you are seeing in the photo are probably the clouds. I would pass on this stone.
 

John Pollard

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CareBear is correct.

I posted some information in a thread several days ago that may bear repeating here.

<< Every diamond is different. Inclusion size, frequency, nature and density happen on a sliding scale. Clarity calls are based on 10X magnification but mother nature goes far deeper than that. Even a diamond graded "Flawless" at 10X can have many inclusions when you increase the magnification and look farther. Even high-clarity diamonds can have microscopic characteristics past the level of scrutiny used to establish the official grade. It's true that most clarity features requiring zoom beyond 10X will not impact optics. But there are diamonds where one can find a heavy frequency/density of characteristics beyond 10X which interfere with light transmission. It won't be noted on the grading report, but it exists.

Using pinpoints as an example: If a cluster of individual pinpoints is deemed insignificant at 10X they will be described as "not shown." If you need higher magnification to see them they'll be completely unmentioned. And that's cool. But remember, the category is clarity, not optics. Optical performance is a different category and things unmentioned in the clarity section can hinder light transmission. In fact this happens with some regularity. Diamond trade professionals have a specific nickname for such diamonds... Does anyone know it?

It may be interesting to add that color-grading also has blind spots. Using a microscope, we frequently find an underlying microscopic tint (most commonly brown or green these days) which is not mentioned on the grading report. >>

Original post in this thread about dark and cloudy appearance:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...nd-cloudy.221797/page-2#post-4013509#p4013509

...It now occurs to me that no-one answered my (unimportant) query about diamonds with such haze/transmission-hindrance. Any guesses?

Q: Diamond trade professionals have a specific nickname for such diamonds... Does anyone know it?

(Trade members...I know you know. This Q is for our awesome consumer contributors.)
 

CareBear

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John, I learned this only recently from your posts in the other thread. Very informative!
 

Karl_K

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Yes a vs2 could be that bad, but it looks more to me like its on the surface and is more uniform than I would expect from inclusions. It could be a polish defect or surface graining trapping oil also.
If your really interested in the stone see if they can have it cleaned and inspected and take another pic.
If not then I would error on the safe side and move on.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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4,607
John Pollard.

I haven't a clue about your question but what you wrote is interesting to me.

I am guessing, it is not Transparency is it?

I hope you will come back and let us know what the answer really is though.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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Read the other post "No BGM"

oh wonder what that could be!? :wink2:
 

pyramid

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Been thinking about John's question. I had read an article about white graining in high color diamonds. Since he said in color grading
in the other post about the Blind in some diamonds which have green under magnification, I am going to pinch that word.
So my guess is 'No Blind Graining Material' ha ha or 'No Blue? something' since fluorescence may come into it???? for G maybe
'Growth'. Clutching straws now.

Come on, some other people guess too :wavey:
 

gr8leo87

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Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
pyramid said:
Been thinking about John's question. I had read an article about white graining in high color diamonds. Since he said in color grading
in the other post about the Blind in some diamonds which have green under magnification, I am going to pinch that word.
So my guess is 'No Blind Graining Material' ha ha or 'No Blue? something' since fluorescence may come into it???? for G maybe
'Growth'. Clutching straws now.

Come on, some other people guess too :wavey:
Nope that's not it.

Hint: B and G refers to body tint.

Also not sure if John was referring to BGM?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

John Pollard

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Pyramid said:
Been thinking about John's question. I had read an article about white graining in high color diamonds. Since he said in color grading in the other post about the Blind in some diamonds which have green under magnification, I am going to pinch that word.
So my guess is 'No Blind Graining Material' ha ha or 'No Blue? something' since fluorescence may come into it???? for G maybe
'Growth'. Clutching straws now. Come on, some other people guess too :wavey:
Thanks for musing this Pyramid. You're very close.

Good hint from Gr8leo87.
 

John Pollard

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susief|1460209547|4017232 said:
No brown, green or milky :read:
We have a winner!

"No BGM?" is becoming a compulsory question between traders. Some time ago US dealers began insisting that Indian producers, specifically, stipulate this for diamonds with no brown/green tint or haze ... 'milky' fell into the lexicon, but I find that word a misapplication.
 

John Pollard

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I’m still curious to see if any consumers know the nickname jewelers might use for a diamond; if they notice its light-transmission is hindered by something microscopic.

Pyramid said:
I am guessing, it is not Transparency is it? I hope you will come back and let us know what the answer really is though.
Not transparency - although I strongly believe that should be a component of performance grading (don’t get me started).

It’s a more general nickname, like calling a tinted diamond “warm.”
 

susief

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OK I cheated and Googled, the curiosity was killing me :cheeky:

Why doesn't GIA just put these things on their certificates? Not necessarily have categories for each on all certs, but surely if there is something glaringly obvious that affects the performance of a diamond they should mention it. Or do they?
 

gr8leo87

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susief said:
OK I cheated and Googled, the curiosity was killing me :cheeky:

Why doesn't GIA just put these things on their certificates? Not necessarily have categories for each on all certs, but surely if there is something glaringly obvious that affects the performance of a diamond they should mention it. Or do they?
Basically the sellers and Retailers don't want all this to be on the report. Too much information - little profit. Who's then going to buy the stone that falls in BGM? You can't trade green stones in the US. However the market is filled up with brown stones.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

gr8leo87

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susief said:
OK I cheated and Googled, the curiosity was killing me :cheeky:

Why doesn't GIA just put these things on their certificates? Not necessarily have categories for each on all certs, but surely if there is something glaringly obvious that affects the performance of a diamond they should mention it. Or do they?
They do mention brown for stones color K and above.

However sometimes the stone may have mix tinge. And not the classic yellow. Those stones don't get a comment.

Gray stones only get a comment - no colour Grade for K and above.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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John Pollard|1460214950|4017277 said:
I’m still curious to see if any consumers know the nickname jewelers might use for a diamond; if they notice its light-transmission is hindered by something microscopic.



It’s a more general nickname, like calling a tinted diamond “warm.”

Would be interested to know this term? (I seem to have opened this old thread from somewhere).
 

John Pollard

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Pyramid|1464079879|4035662 said:
John Pollard|1460214950|4017277 said:
I’m still curious to see if any consumers know the nickname jewelers might use for a diamond; if they notice its light-transmission is hindered by something microscopic.

It’s a more general nickname, like calling a tinted diamond “warm.”
Would be interested to know this term? (I seem to have opened this old thread from somewhere).
Hi Pyramid. Thanks for bumping this.

The nickname is "sleepy." It's what many traders call a diamond that should perform well, but has issues with light-transmission or transparency; usually related to tint/impurities or clarity factors beyond 10X.
 

Rockdiamond

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denverappraiser|1460206137|4017216 said:
It looks like surface waterspots to me.
+1 to this- I've never seen a VS2 where the inclusion caused noticeable transparency issues- an entire crown facet being sleepy would exclude a diamond from VS2 clarity grading in my experience.
 

PS34one

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51
susief|1460233294|4017353 said:
OK I cheated and Googled, the curiosity was killing me :cheeky:

Why doesn't GIA just put these things on their certificates? Not necessarily have categories for each on all certs, but surely if there is something glaringly obvious that affects the performance of a diamond they should mention it. Or do they?
They do, to some extent. If its caused by whitish, green, brown, reflective or any kind of 10x loupable internal graining the comment "internal graining not shown is used". The type of internal graining is not specified.
 

gr8leo87

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PS34one said:
susief|1460233294|4017353 said:
OK I cheated and Googled, the curiosity was killing me :cheeky:

Why doesn't GIA just put these things on their certificates? Not necessarily have categories for each on all certs, but surely if there is something glaringly obvious that affects the performance of a diamond they should mention it. Or do they?
They do, to some extent. If its caused by whitish, green, brown, reflective or any kind of 10x loupable internal graining the comment "internal graining not shown is used". The type of internal graining is not specified.
The internal graining comment has nothing to do with the transparency of the stone or performance.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

PS34one

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gr8leo87|1464204505|4036235 said:
PS34one said:
susief|1460233294|4017353 said:
OK I cheated and Googled, the curiosity was killing me :cheeky:

Why doesn't GIA just put these things on their certificates? Not necessarily have categories for each on all certs, but surely if there is something glaringly obvious that affects the performance of a diamond they should mention it. Or do they?
They do, to some extent. If its caused by whitish, green, brown, reflective or any kind of 10x loupable internal graining the comment "internal graining not shown is used". The type of internal graining is not specified.
The internal graining comment has nothing to do with the transparency of the stone or performance.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
It does if its white But its *very* rare. Heavy white graining can slightly affect the transparency, it can drop an otherwise IF stone to a VVS. I agree it is usually a non issue i've only seen it a couple times, i'm just pointing out there are cases where its on the certs. Barely worth mentioning.
Colored internal graining only affects the color tint/hue but I know that's not really on the topic of visual clarity/transparency. I just thought it was on topic enough (seeing were talking about general appearance) to mention that the brown tint (or other) caused by Internal brown graining won't be mentioned other than by the general internal graining comment and although it does not affect performance or transparency I would not want it in my diamond.
 

PS34one

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gr8leo87|1460235489|4017365 said:
susief said:
OK I cheated and Googled, the curiosity was killing me :cheeky:

Why doesn't GIA just put these things on their certificates? Not necessarily have categories for each on all certs, but surely if there is something glaringly obvious that affects the performance of a diamond they should mention it. Or do they?
They do mention brown for stones color K and above.

However sometimes the stone may have mix tinge. And not the classic yellow. Those stones don't get a comment.

Gray stones only get a comment - no colour Grade for K and above.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

What comment are you referring to for "grey" stones? And what mention do you mean of brown tint for K and above? As far as I know the brown tint is caused by brown internal graning, and it will not be specified as brown in the comments. are you talking about brown patches of color? I have seen that....
 

gr8leo87

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PS34one said:
gr8leo87|1460235489|4017365 said:
susief said:
OK I cheated and Googled, the curiosity was killing me :cheeky:

Why doesn't GIA just put these things on their certificates? Not necessarily have categories for each on all certs, but surely if there is something glaringly obvious that affects the performance of a diamond they should mention it. Or do they?
They do mention brown for stones color K and above.

However sometimes the stone may have mix tinge. And not the classic yellow. Those stones don't get a comment.

Gray stones only get a comment - no colour Grade for K and above.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

What comment are you referring to for "grey" stones? And what mention do you mean of brown tint for K and above? As far as I know the brown tint is caused by brown internal graning, and it will not be specified as brown in the comments. are you talking about brown patches of color? I have seen that....
Sorry for my error. I meant K and below and not above.

According to my understanding the body tint is impacted by the impurities in the crystal formation.

Nitrogen impurities in Crystal formation - yellow body tint.

Nickel impurities - brown.

Hydrogen - grey.

Boron - blue.

The GIA report mentions body tint for K stones and below. Eg K, Faint Brown.

Graining can be of any color. And any colored graining will affect the clarity grade bringing IF stone to VVS.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

whitewave

Ideal_Rock
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Reading through this after I linked it for another person...

My original engagement stone looks bright white under certain lighting and at other times looks dull grey. It's not certified though, so grey is not indicated on the "appraisal report" we received. It is H with strong blue Fluor.

It looks more grey when it needs cleaning. The grey comes out in photos, so it is really hard to convince people that it looks better in person. It is a frustrating stone, which is why I had it reset as a pendant.
 
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