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Diamond looks dark and cloudy

MissGotRocks

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I still think that what you are seeing is fairly normal. If you just plain don't like the stone, by all means trade it in for something that you do like. However, before you do that, I'd look at other stones comparable to yours to know for sure that what you are seeing is more than just the normal with ideal cut stones. I think it is a common misconception that a diamond should just dance and sparkle off the finger at all times. A diamond needs light to reflect and it can reflect the color of walls, interiors of cars and the color of your clothing. From your picture, it looks like a nice bright stone but it sounds like you've been unhappy with It for years. Definitely bears checking out after a good cleaning and against other stones that would fall within an ideal range.
 

AdaBeta27

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fwiw, early or mid 2007 is when I bought my first superideal H&A diamond, the one I said was "bland." I'm sure it had a fresh 2007 GIA report, and that it was a GIA report and not AGS. The stone that I traded it in on had an AGS report from 3Q or 4Q of 2009. Just saying, there might have been some cutting fads or experimental techniques in 2006-2006 that had been dropped by 2009. I like my 2009 model a lot better, as in there is no comparison. It's AGS 000, ISEE2 score was 9.8 or 9.9, it got 3 very-highs on the Brilliancescope, etc. It's a great stone and I am still 100% in love with it.
 

John P

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Well-cut diamonds may indeed appear dark inside in sunlight due to concrete scientific/physical and physiological reasons.

1. Scientific: The sun only sub-tends light at about one-half a degree. This means, in the entire 180-degree hemisphere, the sun is one tiny point light source occupying 1/360th of the area a diamond is trying to "look" for light. So while you see the (very) bright sparkles such a small bright light source creates, confinement to only a half-degree limits what the diamond finds to give-back.

2. Human physiology: Your pupils get smaller in sunlight, further reducing brightness in the fore-and-background. The positive is that well-cut diamonds explode with more colored-sparkle... Why? Because when your pupils are smaller they are 'clipping' more dispersive fans so you're seeing more of them as color, rather than recombined white light.

Adaptation photo in this thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...monds-revisited.150108/#post-2720418#p2720418
Pupil-clip graphic in this thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...re-in-dim-light.122718/#post-2144269#p2144269

In the case of this thread we may have a combination of "dark" (jhoshopgirl descriptor #1) and "cloudy" (jhoshopgirl descriptor #2).

Possible reasons for "dark" above, and elaborated on by a number of posters.
Possible reasons for "cloudy" in my next post.
 

John P

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kenny|1459362610|4013221 said:
I got the report # from the pic.
Then I used GIA report check to look at the PDF of the whole report, but for some reason a link to the PDF file is not there ... but this is.

Perhaps these two Clarity Characteristics are the same as what is listed under the plot.
No?
Nice sleuthing by Kenny. For the record, PDFs are not online for reports issued prior to 2010. This is good information, though.

If the report lists the inclusions in that order then the grade-setters are clouds. We have more clouds listed as "not shown." In many circumstances this isn't an issue, but all diamonds are different and there are outliers.

jhoshopgirl has used the word "cloudy" specifically. And with a jeweler saying what she observes is 'due to clouds inherently in the diamond,' it sounds like there are characteristics not which are not a factor in clarity grading, but do have an influence in certain light conditions. I have not personally inspected the diamond, of course, but the clues point that way.

...Moving away from this specific case: Every diamond is different. Inclusion size, frequency, nature and density happen on a sliding scale. Clarity calls are based on 10X magnification but mother nature goes far deeper than that. Even a diamond graded "Flawless" at 10X can have many inclusions when you increase the magnification and look farther. Even high-clarity diamonds can have microscopic characteristics past the level of scrutiny used to establish the official grade. It's true that most clarity features requiring zoom beyond 10X will not impact optics. But there are diamonds where one can find a heavy frequency/density of characteristics beyond 10X which interfere with light transmission. It won't be noted on the grading report, but it exists.

Using pinpoints as an example: If a cluster of individual pinpoints is deemed insignificant at 10X they will be described as "not shown." If you need higher magnification to see them they'll be completely unmentioned. And that's cool. But remember, the category is clarity, not optics. Optical performance is a different category and things unmentioned in the clarity section can hinder light transmission. In fact this happens with some regularity. Diamond trade professionals have a specific nickname for such diamonds... Does anyone know it?

It may be interesting to add that color-grading also has blind spots. Using a microscope, we frequently find an underlying microscopic tint (most commonly brown or green these days) which is not mentioned on the grading report.

Is anyone familiar with the current and common wholesaler code: "No BGM" ?
 

MissGotRocks

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I would certainly trust your level of expertise far more that we consumers but the OP says the stone goes dark and cloudy in certain lighting conditions - sunlight and dim bar lighting. That's what led me to believe that she was seeing properties of ideal cut stones in those lighting situations rather than it being the stone itself.

At any rate, if she feels unhappy with the stone - and apparently she has felt this way for quite some time - it may be time to look at others.
 

Witos

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I love the threads when Pollard chimes in. I learn so much.
 

John P

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MissGotRocks|1459389725|4013497 said:
I would certainly trust your level of expertise far more that we consumers but the OP says the stone goes dark and cloudy in certain lighting conditions - sunlight and dim bar lighting. That's what led me to believe that she was seeing properties of ideal cut stones in those lighting situations rather than it being the stone itself.

At any rate, if she feels unhappy with the stone - and apparently she has felt this way for quite some time - it may be time to look at others.
Thank you for the kind comment. I think we're on the same page MGR... First, I am with you as it relates to "darkness." I'd reiterate that my gemological hypothesis about jhoshopgirl's diamond is speculation, based on cases I am familiar with. There's no way to confirm or dispel that speculation without pro analysis.

Second, I should say that "hazy" cases are quite disparate. Some - which many of us have seen these in fire-sale-discount-stores - look like dead, frozen spit. Others are only noticeable in certain conditions.

One related study is the concept of fluorescence causing cloudiness in diamonds. As you and other long-timers know, a diamond can have high levels of fluorescence with absolutely no adverse effects. With that said, there are also diamonds with a high frequency of microscopic pinpoints along with strong or very-strong fluorescence. In such cases the excitement of that fluorescence under UV can illuminate the pinpoints, creating a "hazy" look. Fluorescence has historically received blanket-blame for such "haze," but it can actually be two elements working together: One which is identified on the grading report ("accursed Fluorescence!") and a microscopic troublemaker that goes unmentioned (sneaky haze).
 

John P

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Witos|1459390141|4013502 said:
I love the threads when Pollard chimes in. I learn so much.
Tip of the hat. :) I love this community, because I learn just as much as anyone.
 

MissGotRocks

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John Pollard|1459391156|4013509 said:
MissGotRocks|1459389725|4013497 said:
I would certainly trust your level of expertise far more that we consumers but the OP says the stone goes dark and cloudy in certain lighting conditions - sunlight and dim bar lighting. That's what led me to believe that she was seeing properties of ideal cut stones in those lighting situations rather than it being the stone itself.

At any rate, if she feels unhappy with the stone - and apparently she has felt this way for quite some time - it may be time to look at others.
Thank you for the kind comment. I think we're on the same page MGR... First, I am with you as it relates to "darkness." I'd reiterate that my gemological hypothesis about jhoshopgirl's diamond is speculation, based on cases I am familiar with. There's no way to confirm or dispel that speculation without pro analysis.

Second, I should say that "hazy" cases are quite disparate. Some - which many of us have seen these in fire-sale-discount-stores - look like dead, frozen spit. Others are only noticeable in certain conditions.

One related study is the concept of fluorescence causing cloudiness in diamonds. As you and other long-timers know, a diamond can have high levels of fluorescence with absolutely no adverse effects. With that said, there are also diamonds with a high frequency of microscopic pinpoints along with strong or very-strong fluorescence. In such cases the excitement of that fluorescence under UV can illuminate the pinpoints, creating a "hazy" look. Fluorescence has historically received blanket-blame for such "haze," but it can actually be two elements working together: One which is identified on the grading report ("accursed Fluorescence!") and a microscopic troublemaker that goes unmentioned (sneaky haze).

So many scenarios but you always present something interesting and valuable to those of us wanting to learn - thank you for your time!!
 

MarionC

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John, so interesting to read your input about causes of haze. It was great to get an "aha" moment of ah! so THAT's why!
 

jhoshopgirl

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Thank you all for the info. Any recommendation as to how I can sell my existing diamond to get another one? Also, how deep of a discount should I expect?

Many thanks!
 

MissGotRocks

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I am going to suggest once again that you go out and look at some other diamonds before making a decision to sell yours. From the picture and your past posts, I truly don't think you are seeing anything that is that unusual for an ideal cut stone. How would you feel if you sold your stone, bought another, only to see the same thing all over again?

As for selling a stone, you can list it on LoupeTroop, Diamond Bistro or place it on consignment with some of the PS vendors. Does the store where your stone was purchased not take trades? Do you have any idea what type of stone you would be looking to purchase?
 

diamond_hunter2017

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Is it possible for a SI1 super ideal cut to have clarity grade is based on clouds not shown and have 0 affect on light transmission, transparency, brilliance and sparkle?

Then it's not necessarily your answer.

First: When "Clarity grade is based on clouds not shown" it's more serious. It implies a diamond where clusters of pinpoints (clouds) are so populous as to be the primary grade setter. In such cases, even VS grades, that may interfere with light transmission.

Second: When "Additional clouds not shown" appears, it usually implies that they're a non-factor. But your jeweler referred to them specifically. It would be irregular for just "additional clouds not shown" to mute transmission. However, if the diamond also has numerous or large plotted clouds (along with that comment) it could merit that reference.

...While it's stimulating to try and problem-solve "in the dark" (haha), posting a photo of the GIA Report would be more helpful, so we are not guessing at things.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Is it possible for a SI1 super ideal cut to have clarity grade is based on clouds not shown and have 0 affect on light transmission, transparency, brilliance and sparkle?

Zero effect? Not likely.

Technically speaking every inclusion blocks or scatters a bit of light. Though in the upper clarities, that amount is negligible - for all intents and purposes a non-factor.

In the case of clouds that are the basis for an Si clarity grade, you can expect a dropoff in transparency. Still might be very pretty though.

Some customers prefer Si stones of this nature because they are almost always totally eye clean, and that seems to be a dominant criteria for a majority of shoppers.
 

diamond_hunter2017

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How much visual impact will the drop off transparency have on this type of SI graded stone vs a cloudless VS2? Can both stones be performing equally in all lighting conditions ?

Zero effect? Not likely.

Technically speaking every inclusion blocks or scatters a bit of light. Though in the upper clarities, that amount is negligible - for all intents and purposes a non-factor.

In the case of clouds that are the basis for an Si clarity grade, you can expect a dropoff in transparency. Still might be very pretty though.

Some customers prefer Si stones of this nature because they are almost always totally eye clean, and that seems to be a dominant criteria for a majority of shoppers.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Really hard to say. Every stone is a little different. The transparency issue in general can be very subtle. You almost have to have a very similar stone without the issue to compare side by side in order to assess degree. I would say there is generally a big difference between a VS2 and an Si1 with this comment on the cert.
 

diamond_hunter2017

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Would an independent appraisal with a Graduate Gemologist (G.G.) from GIA be able to easily detect transparency , lighting impact issues from clarity grade based on clouds not shown?

Really hard to say. Every stone is a little different. The transparency issue in general can be very subtle. You almost have to have a very similar stone without the issue to compare side by side in order to assess degree. I would say there is generally a big difference between a VS2 and an Si1 with this comment on the cert.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Yes, I would certainly hope so.
BTW the easiest way to see it is to side light the diamond.
 

sugarcloud

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I have a GIA XXX (G/SI1) and it goes black in certain lights. I think some ideal cut diamonds just do that. Oddly, my wife's diamond with the exact same specs (same carat/same shape/GIA XXX/G/SI1) doesn't do this!

Here's a pic:

ick.jpg

I know that this is a really old post but I was curious to know if you still experience this with your more recent diamonds? ( I think you may own an ACA now?). I'm thinking of buying an ACA but the darkening in sunlight is something that I know would bug me and I am wondering if ACAs are affected in the same way as your GIA XXX is / was?
 

tyty333

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I know that this is a really old post but I was curious to know if you still experience this with your more recent diamonds? ( I think you may own an ACA now?). I'm thinking of buying an ACA but the darkening in sunlight is something that I know would bug me and I am wondering if ACAs are affected in the same way as your GIA XXX is / was?

It is considered "normal" for well-cut diamonds to go dark in bright light.

You can read why it happens here...
.

Edit...

Also this thread post #49 and on...
 
Last edited:

sugarcloud

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It is considered "normal" for well-cut diamonds to go dark in bright light.

You can read why it happens here...
.

Edit...

Also this thread post #49 and on...

Thank I will have a read!! I wonder if it is more obvious in larger stones? I am planning on getting a 0.8 ACA so not sure if this effect will look any different in a smaller diamond.
 
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