**Gemstone re-cutting: Where to go? How costly?

[chrono]

A gemstone can only be improved so much. If the material is inexpensive to begin with, the cost analysis will show that it makes NO sense to recut the stone. You add up the material loss, cost of recut, shipping and usually loss of saturation and tone, and sometimes change in hue, and your final result will show either a negative value compared to the original or at most, the same value. If the colour is NOT there in the first place, no amount of fancy cutting is going to improve its worth. A recut on inexpensive and common material will also not improve its worth.

Also, with regards to why the stone looks better in the vendor's pictures? Look at the background colour. Dark background and background colour where it is similar to the stone's colour gives the impression of better saturation.

 

[chrono]

The Spess Pear faces the same size as it did before. It started at 3.6cts and now it is 2.55 I believe, so if you focus on the weight, it did lose a bit. But what it gained is a TON of brilliancy, and it faces the same. I really focus less on weight and more on size. To anyone looking at the gem, if it is 9x6 and 3.6cts, or 9x6 and 2.5cts, it won't make a bit of difference. Sure, if you are talking about selling the gem, that extra ct weight is worth something, but how much? When the cut gem faces the same size? And thats an example of 29% loss. I agree with LD, if it is something $$$ like Paraiba that color and size, I do not touch. But Spessartite, while a nice color, but not THE top Mandarin color, if you can have Dan just do the pavillion like he did mine, I really do not think the ct weight loss will make the stone lose value, as the precision cutting will increase the value. Its your call ultimately, but what it boils down to is this...its worth a little ct weight loss to do a pavillion recut, but nobody here is suggesting a complete recut, where you would lose a TON of ct weight.

Oh, that Spessartite is actually orange, and that zircon as I said is seafoam green. Those are Dan Stairs photos (the finished ones) and the colors of his pictures are a little different than real life. Also, what Dan will do is look at your stone and give you an analysis..as would just about any of the cutters that have been mentioned. They all do a great job in estimating what the weight loss would be, and what the performance gains will be. Its not like they will just cut it and you will have no clue. I've found Dans estimates to be very conservative..he will tell me 30% and often it will only be 25%, and so on.

Did the colour (hue, tone and saturation) on your spessartite change? Are your eyes well trained enough to make the distinction? Slight changes can make a big difference in how stones are priced. Sometimes, one is not able to see the difference unless two stones are compared side by side. For me, I don't care about precision cutting. The colour is what counts the most. Many "native cuts" are actually very good (not windowed, little extinction, no bowtie, good symmetry and polish). Precision cut stones do not always increase the value of a stone unless the colour is there. Also, usually stones cut by well known lapidaries (who've won notable awards) are the ones that set a higher price.

I take disagreement that other lapidaries will not look at you stone and give you an analysis. Jeff White, Jerry Newman and others suggested by PSers will NOT do so without at least seeing good pictures or have the stone in hand. Personally, my opinion is that they are more skilled and can do an exellent assessment as to the weight loss, stone performance AND final colour.

I have seen some stones here on PS where after a precision recut, the stone looked LESS attractive than before and it was not a major job. Only the pavilion was tweaked. There are times when a stone is a good candidate and there are times where it is not a good idea.

 

[ChrisA222]

I guess this is where we can agree to disagree...as everyone has different opinions. For me, the overall look of the gem is affected by the color and cut of almost equal importance. I hate windowy gems, and would rather have a brilliant, sparkly gem with less color than one that has great color but is flat. That is just personal preference, and why, to me, I'd much rather spend a little more for better cutting than for a stone with better color but not as good of a cut. Of course every case is different, but yeah, I often buy gems with the idea of recutting, but that is just me.

As far as my spess, no I don't think the color or anything about its color changed. Its still, to my eyes, slightly brownish orange. In Dan's pic it looks red but it is really orange, but a darker brownish orange. Ill post a pic I took myself but it wont be a good one. But before, it was flat in the middle..or, a dead stone, and now, when it moves it sparks everywhere. that is what I value the most. Opinion...


"I take disagreement that other lapidaries will not look at you stone and give you an analysis. Jeff White, Jerry Newman and others suggested by PSers will NOT do so without at least seeing good pictures or have the stone in hand. Personally, my opinion is that they are more skilled and can do an exellent assessment as to the weight loss, stone performance AND final colour."

Im not sure what you mean by that Chrono...misunderstanding maybe? The point I was trying to make is that when Ive worked (thus far only with Dan Stair), I've emailed him pics, he says either "sure send it, ill look at it" or "you can send it, but I dont think it will work". Then once he has the gems, he will email me again and say "ok, if we do this...this will most likely happen". And then I make a decision based on what he says. Thats all I was trying to say. Maybe the other guys work differently, but I think you just misunderstood what I was saying,thats all.

As far as worth, what I've finally learned, is that a stone is worth only what someone will pay. There is no standardized value of a particular stone, precision cut or native cut etc. While I think my Spess is worth a lot more now that it sparkles even though it weighs a ct less, others may disagree.

 

[RedSpinel]

To Mastercutgems: I had to take almost 10 pictures to get 3 half decent ones with my camera. The other pics make the Spess look almost brown, even though it has absolutely zero brown in real life, and even the pics I posted dont really tell the story well either. It doesnt have any yellow to it at all. It is pure orange. However, the top, world class Mandarin garnets are a little darker orange than this one. But, when you look at the table facts or crown or whatever the top, side facets are called, you can see that it has a good, bright shiny pure orange to it, but when you look at the center, the widow and the white background make it look lighter in that area. But I would think that if it was re-cut and the window removed, so the top of the entire stone looks like the crown facets, ie; not too light, then it would be very bright., and seem more saturated. At least thats my hope..... Its a very clean stone, and there's only 1 noticeable inclusion towards the crown, but its mostly hidden.

To Chrissa222 I finally got hold of the guy at customgemstones.com. Its Daniel I believe. He got my 2nd email with the pics, and he said he thought it could be altered with the bulges underneath removed, and maybe the top wont have to be shrunk any, so it should still face up close to the same size it does now.

Back to Mastercutgems: (I couldve just typed this above and not split up the message... oh well), I also sent these same pics to 4-5 other cutters listed on Google, and ironically, 3 of the cutters are named John! John #1 says the same thing that Daniel said above^. So John #2 tells me that re-cutting the Spess would certainly improve it's appearance greatly, but the stone's value would remain the same as it is now! That makes absolutely no sense to me at all! If I had 2 cars, both were the same model, and one was all scratched up with the paint in terrible shape, but the other had a new paint job, obviously the car with new paint job would be worth MORE than the car with the terrible paint job.... How could the same gem be worth the same, if one of the 4 "C's" is improved radically, as opposed to having a window in it? So he said that cutting it is a wasted of money for that reason...

Then John #3 emailed me today, he said "Send some GOOD pictures next time!" Then he said, "I can re-cut it but you will lose at least 50% of its carat weight, and its length and width would be reduced significantly"... All that from a guy who tried to make it out like my pictures were too lousy for him to glean any info!

I agree with you about the Scapolite. They arent incredibly expensive, so it would probably be a waste of money, however, while looking at photos of re-cut stones yesterday on the internet, many of them were not anywhere near the best specimens. Many were too light, and barely had ANY color to them. Some were cheap Rhodolite garnets too. But I dont think I'll spend the money on the Scapolite. I do have some other stones that do have more value than the Scapolite though, and they could use a re-cut, and considering what I paid for them, I wouldnt be losing much if I did have them recut. Plus their value should go up, so it would probably be worthwhile to get it done at some point.

But the funny thing is, that Daniel told me I would either have to send the stone now, or wait til he moves. Turns out, the town he's moving to is about 45 minutes drive from where I live now! So I told him I'd probably just drive down to his base of operation in June or July after he's moved, and drop off the stone personally.

 

[PrecisionGem]

A gemstone can only be improved so much. If the material is inexpensive to begin with, the cost analysis will show that it makes NO sense to recut the stone. You add up the material loss, cost of recut, shipping and usually loss of saturation and tone, and sometimes change in hue, and your final result will show either a negative value compared to the original or at most, the same value. If the colour is NOT there in the first place, no amount of fancy cutting is going to improve its worth. A recut on inexpensive and common material will also not improve its worth.

Also, with regards to why the stone looks better in the vendor's pictures? Look at the background colour. Dark background and background colour where it is similar to the stone's colour gives the impression of better saturation.

Of course I have to disagree with this. Normally correcting the cut improves the color, enhances the tone and gives the stone more life. I'm not sure how cutting could alter the saturation, maybe Chrono could explain this. Always, all things being equal, a well cut stone will sell for more than a poorly cut stone. There are people who make a living by just re-cutting and selling selling the re-cuts for a higher price.

I don't re-cut others stones, and will very seldom buy cut stones to re-cut, but when ever I did, the finished result was always much better than the original cut. A poor cut will discount the selling price of a stone.

 

[minousbijoux]

Gene: I'm thinking the difference here might be one of semantics. Bare with me, as I'm thinking this through as I write this. We have all seen stones cut where the color lightens due to less material present. It might be misusing the term, but the stone ends up appearing less saturated, because there is less depth of material. So it appears that the intensity, or saturation, of the color has changed. Its the same with color change - unless you're talking about elimination of extinction which would make the stone seem more intense in color (right? or would it just change the tone?), the color change results from stripping away material which makes it appear less intense and therefore lighter in color - its not actually changing the hue, right?

Complicated!

 

[Quantz Studios]

It doesn't only have to do with the amount of material present for light to go through, but also how that light is bounced around inside that material. You improve the angles and light behaves in a more desirable way inside the material. More light bouncing around inside the stone and coming up through the crown improves saturation, instead of it entering and going straight out the bottom or the sides of the pavilion.

 

[minousbijoux]

unless you're talking about elimination of extinction which would make the stone seem more intense in color (right? or would it just change the tone?)

Stonebender: I'm not sure you were responding to me or Gene (not that it matters) but aren't you and I saying the same thing? I think of extinction as light not bouncing back due to poor angles. By eliminating the extinction - that is, improving the angles so light reflects back correctly - the intensity/saturation is amped up. Aren't we on the same page, or am I missing something?

 

[Quantz Studios]

I was referring more to windowing/ shallow stones and the "lightening of stones due to less material being present". But I think what you and I both are talking about are on the same page.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I think you are not using the terms correctly. In stones, saturation is in reference to how pure the color is, not the tone. Tone would change as the material gets thinner, but not saturation. A blue stone with strong saturation could be light blue or dark blue, it just wouldn't have any gray in it. A blue with poor saturation could be dark or light, but would have gray in it.

I can't picture how recutting a stone could change it's saturation, it could change it's tone however.

As far as cut effecting value, "The Guide" says this:

"How well the gem is cut can greatly influence the value because a well cut gem will generally have a better color appearance and greater overall beauty. Proportion grading will include features such as symmetry, crown height, pavilion depth, bulge, girdle thickness, table size and finish."

In the trade, this is all summed by the work "make". YOu will hear dealers say; "This stone has a very good make..." and you pay extra for this, just as a poor make will discount the stone.

 

[Quantz Studios]

Ah... my mistake Gene. I did mean tone.

 

[PrecisionGem]

On some stones such as a tourmaline, that usually have a "C" axis that is either a different tone or color, you can with the cut minimize or maximize the effect of this axis. Typically the "C" axis on a tourmaline is darker or in some cases closed. You can handle this by using very steep angles on this axis to reduce it's effect in the stone. So in this type of case one could actually alter the saturation and tone of the stone.

 

[minousbijoux]

Yes, you're right - it is tone.

 

[chrono]

I guess this is where we can agree to disagree...as everyone has different opinions. For me, the overall look of the gem is affected by the color and cut of almost equal importance. I hate windowy gems, and would rather have a brilliant, sparkly gem with less color than one that has great color but is flat. That is just personal preference, and why, to me, I'd much rather spend a little more for better cutting than for a stone with better color but not as good of a cut. Of course every case is different, but yeah, I often buy gems with the idea of recutting, but that is just me.

I dislike windowed stones too but would accept a stone with a small window on material that is very fine and expensive. On more common material like citrine and the like, I expect excellent cutting. In some ways, we do agree on the same points.

As far as my spess, no I don't think the color or anything about its color changed. Its still, to my eyes, slightly brownish orange. In Dan's pic it looks red but it is really orange, but a darker brownish orange. Ill post a pic I took myself but it wont be a good one. But before, it was flat in the middle..or, a dead stone, and now, when it moves it sparks everywhere. that is what I value the most. Opinion...

"I take disagreement that other lapidaries will not look at you stone and give you an analysis. Jeff White, Jerry Newman and others suggested by PSers will NOT do so without at least seeing good pictures or have the stone in hand. Personally, my opinion is that they are more skilled and can do an exellent assessment as to the weight loss, stone performance AND final colour."

Im not sure what you mean by that Chrono...misunderstanding maybe? The point I was trying to make is that when Ive worked (thus far only with Dan Stair), I've emailed him pics, he says either "sure send it, ill look at it" or "you can send it, but I dont think it will work". Then once he has the gems, he will email me again and say "ok, if we do this...this will most likely happen". And then I make a decision based on what he says. Thats all I was trying to say. Maybe the other guys work differently, but I think you just misunderstood what I was saying,thats all.

I understand what you mean now. Thank you for the clarification. I agree that a good lapidary should work this way with a potential client on whether to recut his/her stone.

As far as worth, what I've finally learned, is that a stone is worth only what someone will pay. There is no standardized value of a particular stone, precision cut or native cut etc. While I think my Spess is worth a lot more now that it sparkles even though it weighs a ct less, others may disagree.

 

[chrono]

To Mastercutgems: I had to take almost 10 pictures to get 3 half decent ones with my camera. The other pics make the Spess look almost brown, even though it has absolutely zero brown in real life, and even the pics I posted dont really tell the story well either. It doesnt have any yellow to it at all. It is pure orange. However, the top, world class Mandarin garnets are a little darker orange than this one. But, when you look at the table facts or crown or whatever the top, side facets are called, you can see that it has a good, bright shiny pure orange to it, but when you look at the center, the widow and the white background make it look lighter in that area. But I would think that if it was re-cut and the window removed, so the top of the entire stone looks like the crown facets, ie; not too light, then it would be very bright., and seem more saturated. At least thats my hope..... Its a very clean stone, and there's only 1 noticeable inclusion towards the crown, but its mostly hidden.

Yes, it will look brighter and more alive but whether more saturated or not, will depend on many factors. The beauty of a gem is dependent on many things with cut being one of the criterias but not the only one. Saturation is also dependent on the size of the gem, meaning that a longer light path allows the perceived colour to bounce around more before coming back to the eye as wonderful colour. This is why I am of the opinion that when the stone is recut, it will lose some saturation and that loss is dependent on how much material is lost. If the loss is minimal, then the perceived saturation will increase due to the optimal angles cut to allow maximum light return. If the weight loss is great, it will still look brilliant due to the optimal angles but because the light path is now shorter, the tone is decreased. Saturation and tone are tied together. There are no light toned stones that have vivid saturation and there are no very dark stones with vivid saturation. Again, this is partially explained here:

http://www.palagems.com/quality_4cs.htm
As saturation increases, so too does tone (since more light is being absorbed. However, there reaches a point where increases in tone may result in a decrease in saturation, as a color “blackens.” The reverse is also true as tone decreases. As tone decreases (which is affected by a greater loss of material), the saturation will decrease to the point where the stone will show either grayness or browness. The vividness of colour will be affected.

To Chrissa222 I finally got hold of the guy at customgemstones.com. Its Daniel I believe. He got my 2nd email with the pics, and he said he thought it could be altered with the bulges underneath removed, and maybe the top wont have to be shrunk any, so it should still face up close to the same size it does now.

Back to Mastercutgems: (I couldve just typed this above and not split up the message... oh well), I also sent these same pics to 4-5 other cutters listed on Google, and ironically, 3 of the cutters are named John! John #1 says the same thing that Daniel said above^. So John #2 tells me that re-cutting the Spess would certainly improve it's appearance greatly, but the stone's value would remain the same as it is now! That makes absolutely no sense to me at all! If I had 2 cars, both were the same model, and one was all scratched up with the paint in terrible shape, but the other had a new paint job, obviously the car with new paint job would be worth MORE than the car with the terrible paint job.... How could the same gem be worth the same, if one of the 4 "C's" is improved radically, as opposed to having a window in it? So he said that cutting it is a wasted of money for that reason...

But one car is now SMALLER than the other car which some engine or comfort parts had to be removed or altered. Recutting a gemstone is more than just a paint job, the lapidary is REMOVING the base material. So I disagree with your analogy of the same car with one having a bad paint job. The models will not quite be the same anymore because the internal portion of the car, not the cosmetics are affected. I explained this in greater detail in your other thread about why gemstones are badly cut.

Then John #3 emailed me today, he said "Send some GOOD pictures next time!" Then he said, "I can re-cut it but you will lose at least 50% of its carat weight, and its length and width would be reduced significantly"... All that from a guy who tried to make it out like my pictures were too lousy for him to glean any info!

I agree with you about the Scapolite. They arent incredibly expensive, so it would probably be a waste of money, however, while looking at photos of re-cut stones yesterday on the internet, many of them were not anywhere near the best specimens. Many were too light, and barely had ANY color to them. Some were cheap Rhodolite garnets too. But I dont think I'll spend the money on the Scapolite. I do have some other stones that do have more value than the Scapolite though, and they could use a re-cut, and considering what I paid for them, I wouldnt be losing much if I did have them recut. Plus their value should go up, so it would probably be worthwhile to get it done at some point.

But the funny thing is, that Daniel told me I would either have to send the stone now, or wait til he moves. Turns out, the town he's moving to is about 45 minutes drive from where I live now! So I told him I'd probably just drive down to his base of operation in June or July after he's moved, and drop off the stone personally.

 

[chrono]

Of course I have to disagree with this. Normally correcting the cut improves the color, enhances the tone and gives the stone more life. I'm not sure how cutting could alter the saturation, maybe Chrono could explain this. Always, all things being equal, a well cut stone will sell for more than a poorly cut stone. There are people who make a living by just re-cutting and selling selling the re-cuts for a higher price.

I don't re-cut others stones, and will very seldom buy cut stones to re-cut, but when ever I did, the finished result was always much better than the original cut. A poor cut will discount the selling price of a stone.

If the material loss is minimal, I agree wholeheartedly that cutting improves colour, enhances the perceived tone and gives the stone more life. However, if the material loss is great, then I do not see how tone is improved. The brilliancy and liveliness is still improved though. When a lot of material is lost, the light path is shortened so the tone is lightened. Tone is closely tied to saturation. Lose too much tone, you'll lose saturation. Too much tone (too dark) and saturation is lost as well (blacks out or becomes extinct).

Yes, all things equal, a well cut stone is more attractive and should sell for more than a poorly cut stone. However, sometimes the material is so rare and expensive that it makes no sense to recut a windowed stone. When I am buying more common material, I look for well cut stone (although not necessarily precision cut) but when I am looking for rarer gems in sizes 3 cts and above with very fine colour like a cobalt spinel, paraiba, tsavorite and the like, I am more forgiving of the cut. As long as it isn't lopsided, doesn't have a huge window, major extinction and so forth, I'm fine with that.

 

[blithesome71]

I think back in 2009 when I first considered Jeremy Newman to recut a stone for me. I was choosing between him and Uli (osirisgems) back then and finally decided to go for Bob Kast instead. Anyway, you could also try this guy. I think his price is very affordable if you're on a tight budget. His name's John send him an email and expect a nice/prompt response. Best wishes!

http://www.gemsbyjohn.com/Pricing.php

I think Uli also accepts gem recut... Also this guy named James Inge (http://shop.gemsbyjames.com/pages/Contact-Us.html)

Not sure but I remembered I also inquired to this guy about gem recutting 'cos his cuts are exceptional:

http://www.jimcolony.com/gemstones/facet.html

 

[RedSpinel]

I think back in 2009 when I first considered Jeremy Newman to recut a stone for me. I was choosing between him and Uli (osirisgems) back then and finally decided to go for Bob Kast instead. Anyway, you could also try this guy. I think his price is very affordable if you're on a tight budget. His name's John send him an email and expect a nice/prompt response. Best wishes!

http://www.gemsbyjohn.com/Pricing.php

I think Uli also accepts gem recut... Also this guy named James Inge (http://shop.gemsbyjames.com/pages/Contact-Us.html)

Not sure but I remembered I also inquired to this guy about gem recutting 'cos his cuts are exceptional:

http://www.jimcolony.com/gemstones/facet.html

Is "John" the official first name for gem cutters? I emailed 4 gem cutters from a Google search, and 3 of them ended up being Johns!

Now you've mentioned yet another John...

I hear Uli is really a middle name, and his first name is really John!

Thanks, I'll look into that link soon....

 

[blithesome71]

Is "John" the official first name for gem cutters? I emailed 4 gem cutters from a Google search, and 3 of them ended up being Johns!

Now you've mentioned yet another John...

Actually his official first name is.... *drum rolls* JOHN hehe such an odd coincidence. Good thing there's a young lapidarist I know & am saving for myself as his cuts/recuts are also equisite and his name's not John

Here's a sample eye candy

Later

 

[chrono]

Blithe,
Superb faceting on those CZs.

 

[Kimz]

After reading your recommendation I also contacted Jerry at GemMart Services, who did a fantastic job. I had him completely make over a poorly cut stone to a more attractive emerald cut for a very fair price. Thanks for the tip!!

 

[wordie89]

Kimz

Turned out beautifully and yet another item on my list of to do's. I have a red oval spinel I want recut by Jerry for 2 years now; just haven't quite gotten around to it. Now that I've seen yet another fine example of his work AND the stone is loose in it's setting I think this is the ideal time to have my spinel "newmanized"!

Wear your stone in good health.