**Gemstone re-cutting: Where to go? How costly?

[RedSpinel]

I started buying faceted gems before I knew what I know now. At first I bought cheap stones, and many cheaper ones were cut fairly well, because their value isnt that high, so the owner/cutter isnt too preoccupied with retaining every milligram of weight the stone has to offer, like Citrines or Amethyst.

But about 10-12 years ago, I bought a beautiful 2.83ct orange Mandarin Garnet. The stone is bright, pure orange with no brownishness, its clean, and it sparkles like crazy.........in spots! What I mean is that it sparkles and shines out on the outer edges, but there's a window in the center! Its an oval, and obviously its a little too shallow, because the owner and cutter were more interested in preserving the carat weight of the stone, instead of cutting it well. If it was cut well, it would be shiny, bright and beautiful all over. But there's that window!

I didnt really know that when I got it. I hadnt seen enough well cut small stones to know better, and I didnt really see it as a big problem at first, and the people I showed it to thought it was gorgeous anyway, but they dont know what a window is either.

So when I look at that stone now, it really irks me that it could be better. I hate that window in the middle! Thats not the only stone I own that isnt cut all that well either. I own others that were bought in that same era. I own a nice, large, clean Scapolite that I like a lot, but its got a window too. There are a few others that either have windows or are cut crooked in one way or another.

But I dont have the first clue of a good gemstone cutter anywhere around the Wilmington DE, Philadelphia Pa, Baltimore MD areas. I'm sure there are people who cut stones, and I met one guy, then he cracked an opal while mounting it!

How much would it cost to have a 2.83ct garnet re-cut by someone good? How much material is lost commonly? Like half?

I guess its better to have a well cut stone that weighs only 1.6ct, than to have a 2.8ct stone with a window, huh?

Has anyone here had a poorly cut stone successfully re-cut?

Thanks.....

 

[chrono]

I highly recommend Jerry Newman of Gem-mart. He recite a mean stone. The weight loss will depend on how shallow your stone is to begin with. If it has a nice belly and only the lower few tiers needs to be spruced up, the weight loss is low and you might even retain the same face up dimensions. If shallow, a lot of the surrounding material has to be removed to keep a certain depth. Unfortunately, there are also other considerations. The material has to be clean enough to refacet and there is the risk of the stone losing both tone and saturation.

I had a native stone custom recut a few years ago. I will post the pictures when I am on the laptop again tomorrow. It had a gaping window and looked pretty dead.

A lapidary's fee will vary but depending on how much work and time is needed, it could be about $100 and upwards.

 

[RedSpinel]

If the term "Native Stone" means a stone that is cut in Thailand or wherever its bought and sold as rough, then mine is certainly a native stone. I could take a picture of the Mandarin garnet, but my camera's macro setting doesnt work right, so I'm limited as to how close I can get while still getting a clear picture, but I think I can get close enough to it to to make the point clear.

How do I upload a digital picture here?

 

[chrono]

The true definition of native cut means it is cut in its home country wherever it may be but I was using it in a different context. The US native cutting is generally good. To be accurate, I meant cuts that have issues, some more serious than others. I promised a picture and here I am. Jeff White selected this "native" cut stone and recut it to my specification. I wanted a step cut octagonal stone at that time in a very light pink hue so it was best for him to pick the right material to begin with.

As you can see, the original stone is unattractive. It has a good sized bowtie, major extinction and a medium sized window. The end result shows full colour and a very lively pink spinel.

To upload a picture, scroll down to see the blue section with two tabs: Options and Upload attachment. Select Upload attachment, click on Browse and add the file. Add your file comment as neccesary and Submit

 

[jbkhere]

OMG Chrono that spinel is BEAUTIFUL!!! LOVE LOVE LOVE it! Now I want an asscher too!! And that pretty pink! I never would have thought I'd want a color like that but I do!! Did you mount it yet? What are you thinking of doing with it?

RedSpinel - I am in the same area as you and doing the same search so I'll be watching this thread. In my search I did find that Vance Gems is in Newark, DE. They pretty much just do the gem shows and do not have an actual store front. I've never used them so I don't know if they can help with recutting or not but I have read good things about them on PS. May be worth while to reach out to them...

 

[RedSpinel]

OMG Chrono that spinel is BEAUTIFUL!!! LOVE LOVE LOVE it! Now I want an asscher too!! And that pretty pink! I never would have thought I'd want a color like that but I do!! Did you mount it yet? What are you thinking of doing with it?

RedSpinel - I am in the same area as you and doing the same search so I'll be watching this thread. In my search I did find that Vance Gems is in Newark, DE. They pretty much just do the gem shows and do not have an actual store front. I've never used them so I don't know if they can help with recutting or not but I have read good things about them on PS. May be worth while to reach out to them...

Well, if they are in Newark, then I'm within 5-10 minutes of them.

 

[jbkhere]

I was on the hunt for a pear stone and asked if they had a store where I could come and see what they had. They told me if they had anything I was looking for (they didn't ) that they could make arrangements for me to see them at the Del Haven store in People's Plaza (they've done mounting work for Vance Gems stones) so I guess they are near them..... Good luck!!

 

[chrono]

Yes, the stone is already mounted.

I noticed that you are looking for the lapidary to be close by. Is there a particular reason?

 

[chrono]

Oops, posted the wrong picture.

 

[RedSpinel]

The true definition of native cut means it is cut in its home country wherever it may be but I was using it in a different context. The US native cutting is generally good. To be accurate, I meant cuts that have issues, some more serious than others. I promised a picture and here I am. Jeff White selected this "native" cut stone and recut it to my specification. I wanted a step cut octagonal stone at that time in a very light pink hue so it was best for him to pick the right material to begin with.

As you can see, the original stone is unattractive. It has a good sized bowtie, major extinction and a medium sized window. The end result shows full colour and a very lively pink spinel.

To upload a picture, scroll down to see the blue section with two tabs: Options and Upload attachment. Select Upload attachment, click on Browse and add the file. Add your file comment as neccesary and Submit

Well, there are 2 pictures of my mandarin garnet, with its wonderful window! Like I said, my camera's malfunctioning macro setting wont let me get closer or it will be all blurry. It worked fine when I fist bought the camera, and I have many close ups of different objects, but then it just stopped. Its a Nikon Coolpix 8700, which is a "superzoom" style camera, kinda half way in between an SLR and a point and shoot, and in 2004/2005 when it came out, it was like $850. I got it in late 2005 for much less over the internet, new, and it works great except for macro.

Anyway, you can see the problem with the garnet, and I can tell you that the camera isnt doing it justice, as I took about 8 pics of it, and the camera made the garnet look almost brown in most of those pics, even though it isnt brown at all!

 

[bobsiv]

I'd guess you'd lose about 1/3 of the weight doing a recut on that, nice color.

 

[chrono]

Do you have the dimensions of the garnet. Generally, total recommended depth is around 60% to 70% depending on the RI of the stone and the design selected. You can estimate approximate size and weight loss based on that, barring other surprises. Remember, the greater the weight loss, you are likely to lose the saturation as well.

 

[RedSpinel]

Here's the Scapolite:

 

[RedSpinel]

Do you have the dimensions of the garnet. Generally, total recommended depth is around 60% to 70% depending on the RI of the stone and the design selected. You can estimate approximate size and weight loss based on that, barring other surprises. Remember, the greater the weight loss, you are likely to lose the saturation as well.

As far as the dimensions of that mandarin garnet are concerned, I've never actually measured it, and I dont have calipers here, so I'd just be guessing. Its cut shallow obviously, and its 2.82cts, and it looks to be maybe 8.5mm x5.5mm or so, but that could be off.....

what was the before and after size of the spinel you had cut above? What the before/after carat weight?

 

[LD]

I don't know if this has been mentioned above because I haven't read the whole thread but you need to be aware that (a) a recut may mean that the gem changes colour to something less desirable and you may not actually like it! (b) you could lose too much weight and end up with a gem not worth what you paid for it (c) some gems can be tweaked to make them a little better but you have to decide whether you want to invest that much money into a stone OR put them down as learning stones and invest your money into something newer and more appealing to your experienced eye.

Also, some gems CAN'T be improved. For example, some gems are so shallow and the window so big that to reduce to eliminate the window you'd end up losing most of the carat weight!

I'm not sure if Jerry Newman can advise if you send him a photo with dimensions and ask his opinion first?

 

[innerkitten]

I've never had a stone re cut but I noticed that Dan Stair is offering a re cut service now. The details are on his website.
http://www.customgemstones.com/

BTW have you seen the cute little pink spinel pair he has up for sale. They would make great side stones.

 

[mastercutgems]

Hello RedSpinel
Re cuts of which I have done for the last 15 years seems to be the thing now with all the treatments of new finds and not much great facet rough being found as of late...

Just for the moderator's sake I do not do re-cuts for other people as I have too much of my own to cut... But I will help you in any way I can to determine what your loss/yield and options may be.

Much of the re-cut depends on what you are wanting to get out of it; if you are wanting to get the reflectivity and lose the window but keep the original shape I would stay with what the gem is and in this case a oval. In that case we will go back to the old rule of thumb... depth to width ratio of 75% which means if the gem is 6mm wide it will need a depth of at least 4mm to get the right ratio to lose the window. Say your gem is like 8.2x5.5 the depth will need to be at least 3.8 and just tweaking the culet will eliminate the window and in many cases you will not touch the girdle or crown...

But if you are wanting a totally different looking cut like the oval to asscher you will lose at least 35%; also depending on the ratio of the minimum width of the said square cut and the depth as the asscher usually works well with a deeper pavilion. Also many "native" cut gems have a very shallow crown; so there are many factors in this scenario; it all depends on the shape you are wanting your finished gem in or if you want to maximize the material..
I know recently there was a person with a huge sapphire that was re-cut and I think the loss on it was 50% or greater; so be prepared if you really want to change the shape dramatically.
Also as LD had said many times changing the cut will alter the coloring of the gem especially when there is zoning involved; so I understand if you want to hand carry the gem to the cutter; that way you both see the pros and cons of the re-cut and also you can look at diagrams and see which will give you the most bang for the buck...

Just food for thought.

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter # 96CGE42

 

[chrono]

If you stick with the oval shape and only tweak the pavilion, you are most likely to keep around the 2.5 carat mark. If the crown needs to be higher, the weight loss will be greater and so you might be around the low 2 ct mark. If you are thinking of totally changing the shape (which I do NOT advise under all costs), it will be a stone well under the 2 carat mark, perhaps even 1.5 carats.

If a stone goes from nearly 3 ct to 1.5 ct, the orange will desaturate into a brownish tone and/or yellowish hue, looking ochre which is an unattractive colour. The closer you can maintain the current size, the more likely you are able to "save" the existing saturation.

In my case, the colour is not particularly valuable so having a good bit of weight loss did not bother me at all. If the colour is good, as much of the material needs to be preserved so I would only close up the window as much as possible. It's been a while so I cannot remember the original carat weight of the pink spinel.

Many years ago, there was a poster who wanted to spruce up the cutting on her peridot. It was a gorgeous rich green colour which is unusual for peridots. Unfortunately, the lapidary had to cut out a lilypad inclusion and so the stone ended up smaller than expected. This affected both the hue and saturation. The peridot now shows a yellow component and the colour was not as rich as before.

 

[RedSpinel]

Chrono: I guess it doesnt really matter whether the stone is re-cut locally or not. I just pointed out that I dont know of anyone around here that does it well. Ifd anything, maybe it would be better if it was done by someone un-local, because I've had bad luck with local jewelers about 66% of the time.

 

[RedSpinel]

To Mastercutgems: As far as the shape is concerned, I'd be fine with keeping it oval. That really doesnt matter, and it wouldnt be worth the material loss to change it.

You're right about the crown being shallow cut, and I dont know if that would have to be re-cut to make it steeper, or if that crown shallowness has anything to do with the window, or if it is reducing brightness(?)

The stone isnt ridiculously shallow, and isnt too far off from 75% of the width, but the bottom facets are shallow cut and tends to round off the bottom of the stone, which I assume is causing light to reflect off those shallow bottom facets, right through the table, which causes the window. I say that because I went to another site listed on another post here: customgemstones.com, and looked at the re-cut stones there, and they were all cut with steep pavilion facets that dont round out at the bottom of the stone.

I had initially thought that a window was purely a product of the stone being cut too shallow, but maybe its a combination of things, such as slight shallowness, combined with the bottom facets being rounded off by the cutter, instead of just cutting nice, straight facets from the girdle down to the bottom. I saw a couple stones that were re-cut and they werent all that deep, but the window was gone, and now the bottom facets are cut steeper and straight instead of rounded off at the bottom.

So maybe my stone needs the bottom steepened, which might mean the width and depth of the stone will have to be lessened a little, but then the crown facets can be steepened a little too.

But I'm just stabbing in the dark here, as I'm not a cutter......

 

[ChrisA222]

RS, I've had a bunch of stones re-cut by Dan Stair. Sometimes I often will buy a gem with re-cutting in mind! I posted something in the color-change garnet thread about that. Ill post a couple before and after pics for ya. I'd contact him at www.customgemstones.com...... He's a great guy to work with!

I've had Ovals re-cut, and like its been mentioned, if the stone has enough depth, he (or whomever you choose) hopefully can just work on the pavillion, and leave the face-up size as-is. That little garnet was re-done, it faces the same as before, and went from .78 to .58 which lost 25%. But it looks the same size. That is about the most he's taken out of one of my recuts!

 

[ChrisA222]

This is an example of changing the shape..in this case, the Morganite was an elongated cushion with a BAD BAD window. Worst window ever award goes to....but it was 7.7cts and clean. The re-cut changed the shape (but not dramatically) and is 5.54cts (28% loss which was fine!!) Also, the Spess pear had a big old window originally but I dont have a picture of that one. It sparkles now instead of being a dead stone (other than the edges)

 

[RedSpinel]

To Chrissa222: Is that the same zircon in the 2 pictures, it looks actually a little more blue in the re-cut picture, but maybe thats because of the blue surface its sitting on.

I forgot why I wanted to get a Sphene, but now that I see the strong dispersion in that re-cut Sphene, I remember why I wanted one!
Supposedly the officials is charge of gemstone and geological science had "discredited" the name Sphene in 1982, and changed it to "Titanite", due to the titanium content of Sphene, but people still call it Sphene 30 years later.....


I too bought a Morganite several years ago, but since I couldnt find a good, semi-dark pink one, which is supposedly the best color, I instead bought a 6+ carat light peach colored one, which seems to be the most common color for Morganite, and its a really clean stone............BUT......It too has a window, and it too is an oval, but since its in the Beryl family, which is not so dense, I like it because you get a lot of stone for your money due to its light weight and low density! So it looks bigger than 6cts!

Your Morganite seems to have become a little more pink after the re-cutting, which seem to be another benefit to re-cutting other than brightening the stone up and getting rid of windows...

I like that red Spessartite. I have a 2ct round one, and its the typical darker orange color, but thats a different stone than my oval Mandarin Spessartite. Unlike my mandarin garnet, whcih clearly needs re-cutting, my 2ct Spessartite is actually cut well!

 

[RedSpinel]

I've never had a stone re cut but I noticed that Dan Stair is offering a re cut service now. The details are on his website.
http://www.customgemstones.com/

BTW have you seen the cute little pink spinel pair he has up for sale. They would make great side stones.

**To Chrissa222 and innerkitten:

I tried to email that guy from customegemstones.com several hours ago with a lengthy description of the stone, 5 pictures, etc., but I received a return email saying that: "Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:" This is the email listed on their website too, I just copied and pasted it: [email protected].

But it didnt work. That was some wasted time, I wonder whats the dilly-o?

**Another concern: I certainly dont want to send a stone off to someone who claims to be a gem cutter, but once they get my stone at their PO box, I never hear from them again! I doubt thats the case here, but with some of the listed lapidary folks on Google, you never know!

 

[RedSpinel]

I didnt figure that guy would be the type to "take the stone and run", but i dont know about all the cutters on Google. Thats the main reason I initially tried to find a local person, so I could go and actually see their store, so I knew where they are located. I guess anyone can put a webpage on the internet with a few pictures of gems, and claim to be an expert cutter. Thats why I asked here, because the person recommended would probably have done work for other people here, so they could be trusted.

But you used the same email address that I left on my post and it worked?

I'll go and try it again......I've still got the email on my list of sent emails, so I'll just copy it and resend it.

I also contacted like 5 other cutters listed on the internet in the USA, and sent the same photos. Well, 2 have emailed me back. Both guys are named John, by the way.

One guy tells me it'll cost around $60, which is cheaper than I thought.

The other John tells me something I didnt think I'd hear..... He says that recutting would make the stone look better, but the value would still remain the same as it is now, so in his opinion, it isnt worth it! He didnt leave a price either.

 

[Arkteia]

This specialist is in BC, not in the US, but several people here on the PS spoke highly of him and since your list has dwindled...I think getting one more reference won't hurt.

http://www.thegemdoctor.com/wp/

I thought it would be a helpful link because he also specializes in restoration of worn or damaged stones.

 

[gsellis]

Looking at those pictures, the problem will be retention. Some stones that you have seen recuts on started out with a big belly and the pavilion was just cut wrong. The two you listed look shallow from the girdle to the culet. So to get a pavilion to perform, they are going to loss diameter. Just trying to set expectations.

The alternative to a recut is a repurpose. A bracelet with a multitude of stones deemphasizes the individuals. You could also assign them to such a project instead of a recut. Just mentioning the option*, not trying to talk you out of it. I am considering making a 'melee' bracelet with some of my oddballs. And if you are reading melee as in a bunch of tiny stones, not that. I am thinking more of a bunch of mismatchs in battle for attention on a bracelet with no real pattern. The Pandora bracelets tend to do that, so why not?

* - IRL, I am a network security engineer. We always look for alternatives and variables. So, multiple solutions are a way of life and I just can't help myself.

 

[mastercutgems]

Great examples Chrisa222 that really shows a very fine example of tweaking and full re-cuts...
RedSpinel; in my own personal opinion which you know what they say about those I really think the quality of the spessartite which looks in the photo to be more on the yellow orange side would be the best candidate for the tweaking job as the material if like I think it is; would be less easy to get now and more costly so you want to save the weight. Also on the shallow crown; when you steepen the crown you mainly just pick up more dispersion or scintillation on that end and it will also minimize tilt window effects with a smaller table and more crown facets. In other words it makes the gem on the crown more busy and less mirroring so your eye will not fixate on anything you can see through the gem...

But it is not necessary to change the crown to make the gem look better as with just the elimination of the window will make the gem have more life and your eye will not be drawn to the center.

The cutter you choose could easily go in and put 4 mains in on the narrow sides and then bring in 2 more mains on the long ends almost to the culet to not eat into the girdle; and then do their breaks and then about 4 star or zircon facets at the culet to break up the mirroring in the culet; that will maximize the weight retention and limit any bow-tie effect the gem would have by not making it a full brilliant culet. That may sound like a foreign language to some but to a cutter they know what I am saying. That will make a gem that will sparkle and also make it worth more even with the loss of weight...

Just food for thought...
On the scapolite; well the material is not very expensive as i do not cut it any longer as you will not get your labor back on it much less the cost of the rough...

Those are just things to consider; but I think your spess is big enough that if I were looking around ; it would be a very good candidate for the simple pavilion re-cut...

Just my ole southern humble opinion though

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified Supreme Master Gem Cutter # 96CGE42

 

[LD]

Red Spinel - I want to show you something!

The photo below is of a 4.1ct Paraiba Tourmaline. It's very nice material indeed BUT as you can see it has a window (there's no hiding that) and it needs curtains to close it! I bought this with the idea of recutting and it sat around for ages before I made a few enquiries.

When I did and some of our lovely cutters on this forum helped me also, it was clear that I would lose at least half the carat weight and whilst the stone would probably look nicer, I would have substantially lost carat weight and therefore value.

Clearly, I didn't bother and decided to try to love its quirkiness. I therefore finally set it and I'm so pleased I did because although you still see the window and the wonky culet, you don't notice it as much now thanks to the setting.

So, I'm not surprised at all that you've been advised not to cut one of your stones. I think it's great advice because it's easy to say "yes do it" but it's far better to have other options!

 

[ChrisA222]

LD, OMG that Paraiba is amazing, window or no window! I don't even really see the window in the ring setting...my eyes aren't drawn to it, thats for sure!

RS, To answer your questions..yes that is the same zircon. It is a really interesting seafoam green color. I got it from a Thai ebay vendor for a song..I loved the unique color and clarity of the gem, so I definately thought it was deserving of a pavillion recut..it totally changed the gems performance, and I didn't lose much weight at all in the process.

The Spess Pear faces the same size as it did before. It started at 3.6cts and now it is 2.55 I believe, so if you focus on the weight, it did lose a bit. But what it gained is a TON of brilliancy, and it faces the same. I really focus less on weight and more on size. To anyone looking at the gem, if it is 9x6 and 3.6cts, or 9x6 and 2.5cts, it won't make a bit of difference. Sure, if you are talking about selling the gem, that extra ct weight is worth something, but how much? When the cut gem faces the same size? And thats an example of 29% loss. I agree with LD, if it is something $$$ like Paraiba that color and size, I do not touch. But Spessartite, while a nice color, but not THE top Mandarin color, if you can have Dan just do the pavillion like he did mine, I really do not think the ct weight loss will make the stone lose value, as the precision cutting will increase the value. Its your call ultimately, but what it boils down to is this...its worth a little ct weight loss to do a pavillion recut, but nobody here is suggesting a complete recut, where you would lose a TON of ct weight.

Oh, that Spessartite is actually orange, and that zircon as I said is seafoam green. Those are Dan Stairs photos (the finished ones) and the colors of his pictures are a little different than real life. Also, what Dan will do is look at your stone and give you an analysis..as would just about any of the cutters that have been mentioned. They all do a great job in estimating what the weight loss would be, and what the performance gains will be. Its not like they will just cut it and you will have no clue. I've found Dans estimates to be very conservative..he will tell me 30% and often it will only be 25%, and so on.

Good luck my friend!!