Gems in the Rough

[Lycia]

Hey everyone!

I have a question on where you can go to have gems in the rough cut? I recently came accross a number of gems in the rough (ruby,emerald and sapphires) but I am now confused on where I can go to get them cut for a decent amount. One place offered to cut them for 135/carat, which I understand could be a fair amount, but having family that works in a jewlery store and can get gems at cost that seemed a little high to me (it was not including a setting or anything else). Also where can I go either online or bookwise to find out what these gems look like in the rough, I know they are real I was informed what they were by a proffessional I just would like to compare them to other gems in the rough....
Thanks!
-AAP

 

[movie zombie]

perhaps your family in the business can come up with some referrals for cutting. also, doing an online search for whatever rough you have will turn up rough venders and you may compare against their pictures if they have them. however, online pictures aren''t reliable due to differences in monitors, camera techniques, etc. also, there is rough and then there is rough; for example, australian sapphire rough appears to be different that other sapphire rough even to my eyes and i have read that it isn''t considered as desireable.

i, too, have some rough to be cut: spessartite. i think it was suggested to me that i make sure the cutter had some sort of credential or belonged to a specific group but i can''t find that recommendation anywhere. perhaps whoever gave me that advice would do so again....please? i''m sure we''d both find it useful.

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[jackiely]

Hi, if the rough looks beautiful you will probably get a nice cut stone out of it. The reverse is alsway true. One good source to refer to is US Faceter's Guild. Precious oriented stone cutters usually charge much higher price than semi-precious cutters. I know a very good cutter located in the LA Jewelry District who charges $60 for one stone! It's really worthy to look around and compare.

Jackie

(I have my red spinel

)

 

[PrecisionGem]

One thing to keep in mind is that rough comes in all grades and forms. What may look very nice may infact not cut a very good gem at all. In North Carolinia there are many of these road side "gem mines", where you sift through buckets of dirt and find gems. While these stones look very pretty, very very few will ever cut a decent stone, or one that''s worth the time to cut.
Also different types of stones will cost you different amounts to have cut. For example, sapphire and ruby are a hardness of 9, and require a pre polish with 8000 grit diamond, and then a finish polish with 50,000 grit. So this extra step is more time. Emerald can be a bugger to work with, so many times a cutter will charge extra for that. Once a stone starts getting large, say over 5 or 6 cts. then again its more cutting time.
You will see cutting prices all over the map... I know a guy in China who will cut for $.25 per stone. But then you get what you pay for in quality. I think in the USA most cutters will charge from $50 to several hundred to cut a stone.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 3/27/2006 7:00:59 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
One thing to keep in mind is that rough comes in all grades and forms. What may look very nice may infact not cut a very good gem at all. In North Carolinia there are many of these road side ''gem mines'', where you sift through buckets of dirt and find gems. While these stones look very pretty, very very few will ever cut a decent stone, or one that''s worth the time to cut.
Also different types of stones will cost you different amounts to have cut. For example, sapphire and ruby are a hardness of 9, and require a pre polish with 8000 grit diamond, and then a finish polish with 50,000 grit. So this extra step is more time. Emerald can be a bugger to work with, so many times a cutter will charge extra for that. Once a stone starts getting large, say over 5 or 6 cts. then again its more cutting time.
You will see cutting prices all over the map... I know a guy in China who will cut for $.25 per stone. But then you get what you pay for in quality. I think in the USA most cutters will charge from $50 to several hundred to cut a stone.

amen! i don''t want the least expensive cutter i can find...personally, i want an honest cutter who will level with me what my rough is capable of in cut and quality and then does it well. i don''t expect world class cutting, but if i wanted native cut, i could have had it done for AU$30/carat finished weight.

movie zombie

 

[rubydick]

Judging rough is an acquired skill, one which, after close to 30 years in the biz, I feel not even close to being proficient at.

But in my travels I have learned a thing or three. First, good rough is quickly snatched up and cut. Any important mine has important rough buyers on site, cash in hand, for the moment when a real gem is unearthed. This is true in Burma, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Madagascar, Australia, pretty much any major mine I've visited.

If a piece of rough has traveled from a mine to a non-manufacturing country (say, from Sri Lanka to the US), you can almost bet that the piece is not worth cutting. This is akin to importing French grapes to New Jersey before they are turned into wine. French winemakers do quite okay on their own, thank you.

So when a Yankee gets hold of a piece of rough in Yankville, the big question is where did it come from?

If it comes from a local mine, then it could be anything. Might be a treasure, might be junk (most rough lies squarely in the latter category).

If it comes from abroad, the fulcrum lists even more strongly towards the junk category.

But the final decision of junk versus jewel requires experience. I always ask the seller a simple question: If this is so valuable, why haven't you cut it yourself?

Now how does one judge a piece of rough? First, please hold it up against the sun to examine the color. This will ensure that not only you will go blind, but that hair will immediately spring from your palms.

Just kidding. Do not hold it against the light, for you get only 20-40% of the light path that a cut stone will show (meaning a cut stone will be much darker) and any cracks and other inclusions will be masked. Instead, put it on a white piece of paper and bring a light from above. How is the color? Do you see some good color from within, or is it really dark, black or opaque. If any of these are true, it's junk, probably not worth cutting.

But if when you lay it down on a white background, you see some decent color, then there is potential.

Now comes the tough part. Bring the light from the side (penlights or fiber-optic lights are good here) and from slightly above. Look for sharp reflections that might indicate fractures or other inclusions. Some colored stones (tanzanite, tsavorite) are expected to be eye-clean; any major cracks mean they are not gem quality.

The bar is slightly lower for sapphire, still lower for ruby, lower still for emerald. You see, each material is a separate beast, each requires a "different eye." That's where the experience comes in.

Bottom line is this. If you are being offered a parcel, buy a small representative sample and tell the owner you'll cut it and then, if you are happy, buy the whole. This idea usually scares the bejesus out of the scamsters. But if somebody is doing legit biz, they'll stand behind what they offer.

And if you are offered a single piece? Are you in the biz? Yes, then you already know what to do and are not posting the question on this forum.

And if not? Then decide how much you'd like to risk on this experiment. Look at it like a bet on the blackjack table in Vegas. Some get a charge out of gambling. What's your pain tolerance? Are you "lightweight" or more serious masochism? Everyone must find their own level. Someone once said the lottery is a tax on those with bad math skills. But if it floods your moat, go for it. We all start somewhere. I've got a whole box of "lessons" for sale cheap in case any Pricescope members are takers.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 3/27/2006 8:46:07 PM
Author: Richard Hughes


And if not? Then decide how much you''d like to risk on this experiment. Look at it like a bet on the blackjack table in Vegas. Some get a charge out of gambling. What''s your pain tolerance? Are you ''lightweight'' or more serious masochism? Everyone must find their own level. Someone once said the lottery is a tax on those with bad math skills. But if it floods your moat, go for it. We all start somewhere. I''ve got a whole box of ''lessons'' for sale cheap in case any Pricescope members are takers.

i feel like i''ve hijacked Lycia''s thread but i think we''re still on her original topic.

in my case, richard hit it right on the head: my pain tolerance is good and i''m doing this for experimental reasons. i''m not out big bucks and i''m not disappointed in how the rough looks. i bought from a former pricescoper and i''m ok with having just ok cut stones. i''m not in it for the big steal of the century nor am i in it for the glory: yes, it is the experiment, the process, that''s what i''m about this time. and i might end up with a pair of good enough to wear earrings. if not, that''s ok too. i''ve already bought a world class spess, now i''m playing. anything i''m serious about having and or having set, i leave to the professionals and just pass them my credit card!

i''m not out the house mortgage, i''m learning, and i''m having fun. and if i never have the rough cut, i''m ok with that, too, as i do like looking at it. i''ve even considered that its ok to end up with cabachons! no big dreams here....but while others may seize the day, i''m seizing the spess!

movie zombie

 

[PrecisionGem]

Richard I think your doom and gloom on rough available in the US is not universally true. While top Emerald and Ruby material certainly is almost imposible to find here, there are some very fine tourmalines, garnets and others than can be had. However, not at any steal of a price. In Tucson, I had in my hand a very nice piece of spesspartite garnet, I think it was around 15cts rough, clean, top color. I did eventually pass on the piece as the price was just a bit too high to really be able to make any money on cutting selling wholesale as almost all of my sales are.

 

[rubydick]

Gene,

Obviously, you are in the biz, so you know what to look for. But for someone who doesn't, being thrown to the wolves is a far more gentle death.

My experience is that most of the good Nigerian spessartine (and rubellite) came out from 1998-2002. After that, good stuff was catch-as-catch can. Yes, good stuff occasionally comes round, but it takes a real eye to separate the good from bad.

Again, if you know, you don't need to ask. If you ask, all I can do is advise caution. Don't throw all your money at one piece. Work with parcels to spread the risk while you learn. And don't put too much of your nest egg into any one deal. Take baby steps if you are still learning. It's a wonderful business. It's not bomb science. Just don't try to do too much too soon.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I think the best advice I could offer.... DON''T BUY ROUGH OFF EBAY.

 

[Lycia]

I know it was stated that I should put my stones up against white paper with a light over head, how would someone advice me to clean them or should I say what is the easiest way to clean them. I know I could take a brush to it and scrub for a while, but there has to be an easier way...right?

(thanks for the responses so far they have been so helpful!)

-Lycia

 

[PrecisionGem]

If there is actual dirt on them you could scrub them with a brush and water. My guess is it''s not dirt but parent materail that either needs to be sawn away or ground away. Maybe you could post a picture of these stones, and then we could have a better idea.
Here is a picture of what typical facet grade stones look like when rough.

 

[chrono]

Oh, they look like very delicious sweet candies.

Out of curiousity, what gemstones are the two brigt blue ones on the upper right side? It would be interesting to know what is what. I think I see an amethyst, indicolite, tanzanite, some sort of chrome gemstone, pink sapphire (?), garnet (?). Do tell.

 

[movie zombie]

very very yummy even if it is rough!

movie zombie

 

[movie zombie]

my rough is not nearly as pretty but i like it anyway. i think i just like handling orange whether its rough or cut.

i think i''ll try and post a picture of my orange specimen from ramona......

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[movie zombie]

and my orange specimen.

movie zombie

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 3/28/2006 12:25:26 PM
Author: Chrono
Oh, they look like very delicious sweet candies.

Out of curiousity, what gemstones are the two brigt blue ones on the upper right side? It would be interesting to know what is what. I think I see an amethyst, indicolite, tanzanite, some sort of chrome gemstone, pink sapphire (?), garnet (?). Do tell.

From left to right: Purple Spinel, 2 Malaya garnets each over 10 cts. In the front row a Tourmaline from the Congo in Africa , Pink Spinel from Tanzania, back row a Tanzanite and 2 Apatites, and front row a Chrome Green Tourmaline from Tanzania.

Good job with your identification Chrono!

 

[movie zombie]

while searching online for something else, i found this and thought it was pertinent to this thread:

http://www.gemstoneartist.com/RoughFAQ.asp

movie zombie