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friends, uncerted diamonds, and an appraisal Q

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Cehrabehra

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I have a friend who really wants a rings with princess cut - and has found one that she *loves* at a local grocery/dept store and called me up with her ONLY concern being - what are the hidden risks to buying an uncerted stone. She says she can''t see color, says she couldn''t see any inclusions with the loupe, and isn''t concerned with it being a high light performer - she just wants a "pretty ring" and doesn''t care about all that stuff. And she loves this ring. It is a 1 carat princess with some other little princess stones in an offset bridge under the stone.... and she called to ask me if there was anything to be concerned about with a non-certed stone. I mentioned to her about girdle thickness but mostly I could only reassure her that the most important thing is that SHE LOVES IT. And she does. I''ve linked her here a few times but she really just isn''t concerned with the numbers and stats and this or that - is much more reassured by having a local jeweler who can guarantee their settings and replace the stone. The ring is $3600 and I don''t know the color or clarity but she doesn''t really care because she loves it so..........................

But she still wanted me to find out if there was anything she should be concerned with other than girdle stability.

Also - she wanted to know what she could expect from an appraisal for a SET stone. TIA guys.

Oh, and be easy on her cause she''ll likely read this haha :)
 

diamondseeker2006

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My sister got a 1 ct. diamond pendant this summer, and when I asked her specs, she didn''t even know the COLOR! So I said nothing. As they say, ignorance is bliss! It''s just people like us with OCD that care about quality and specs! Bottom line, if all one cares about is that it looks pretty to them, then I don''t think we can impose our standards. But if they express some desire to get a good quality stone, then I think it''s great to point them to the info to become educated. As for me, I wouldn''t need a course in princess cut, but I''d simply buy an AGS0 certified princess to know I was getting a good one. There are no hidden risks if one never learns about quality (as long as the stone is insured).
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/3/2006 8:25:14 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
My sister got a 1 ct. diamond pendant this summer, and when I asked her specs, she didn''t even know the COLOR! So I said nothing. As they say, ignorance is bliss! It''s just people like us with OCD that care about quality and specs! Bottom line, if all one cares about is that it looks pretty to them, then I don''t think we can impose our standards. But if they express some desire to get a good quality stone, then I think it''s great to point them to the info to become educated. As for me, I wouldn''t need a course in princess cut, but I''d simply buy an AGS0 certified princess to know I was getting a good one. There are no hidden risks if one never learns about quality (as long as the stone is insured).
well you and I are both here so we tend to agree on this importance lol! I looked up ACA princess and for a 1 carat it''s about 5.5k which is in her price range (7k including ring) but if she''s really happy with a total ring for 3.5k and they''ll replace the stone if it falls out etc....

mostly she just wants to know if there is a specific problem (other than not getting what you think you''re getting since she''s happy with what she''s getting regardless of what it is) to consider in an uncerted stone...
 

diamondseeker2006

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Sure, it could be a lower color, clarity, and cut than they are representing it as.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/3/2006 8:43:41 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Sure, it could be a lower color, clarity, and cut than they are representing it as.
they aren''t representing it as ANY of those!!! just the weight. They didn''t even give her an estimate. Just said - no clue what this stone is - do you love it? and she said yes! She has no idea what the color even *might* be other than she thinks its pretty. In a way it''s kinda liberating LOL Assuming the setting is 1.5k that means a 1 carat princess that is eye clean and "sparkley" for 2k.
 

pyramid

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They may not be representing it but the 4 C's are in that stone somewhere. What if they are charging over $3600 for a M Color with fluorescence to make it look whiter, clarity I3 (she sees nothing in it but then again she has never looked much at diamonds, when looking with a loupe you need to focus your eyes into the different depths of a diamond, combined with the probably bright store lighting reflecting off the stone she may not even see a large white inclusion. Worse still as it is not certificated what if it is a treated diamond = fracture filled. Even if she took it to an appraiser and asked them if it was worth the money. I think the main thing is, that the asking price is what the diamond is worth in that market where she bought it. The same with mall jewellers, as long as the customer knows they will pay more for a certain quality in that market than at an independent jeweller, maybe they are getting something else, such as up to the minute fashion designed mountings from a store which they and their peers appreciate, even though it is overpriced to others. As you said the price for an AGS0 princess was $5000 but she does not need to get that cut quality if she does not want to pay for it, but the diamond she buys should be priced fairly for the place it is being bought.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/3/2006 10:17:41 PM
Author: Pyramid
They may not be representing it but the 4 C''s are in that stone somewhere. What if they are charging over $3600 for a M Color with fluorescence to make it look whiter, clarity I3 (she sees nothing in it but then again she has never looked much at diamonds, when looking with a loupe you need to focus your eyes into the different depths of a diamond, combined with the probably bright store lighting reflecting off the stone she may not even see a large white inclusion. Worse still as it is not certificated what if it is a treated diamond = fracture filled. Even if she took it to an appraiser and asked them if it was worth the money. I think the main thing is, that the asking price is what the diamond is worth in that market where she bought it. The same with mall jewellers, as long as the customer knows they will pay more for a certain quality in that market than at an independent jeweller, maybe they are getting something else, such as up to the minute fashion designed mountings from a store which they and their peers appreciate, even though it is overpriced to others. As you said the price for an AGS0 princess was $5000 but she does not need to get that cut quality if she does not want to pay for it, but the diamond she buys should be priced fairly for the place it is being bought.
I''m going to go with her to look at it - not that I''m by any stretch an expert, particularly about princess cuts. But I do know more than the average B&M shopper about inclusions and girdle width and basic symmetry (not that that concerns her either lol) and color as well... I''ll take my J which hides NO color and if it *looks* whiter I''m just going to assume (for all the intents and purposes of this situation) it''s that or better.... If she was thinking o paying 7k or even 5k for this ring I''d likely beg her not to do it, but it''s so cheap and if she''s happy... but I hear ya - wonder why it''s so cheap. THANK YOU for mentioning the treated stone thing.... didn''t think of that - is there something I should look for?

I just did a quicky search on BN and a 1 carat J SI2 g/g is 3200.... it''s just so weird to me LOL
 

DBM

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Sometimes stones that are say j or below and/or about SI3 or less are simply not certified by anyone. easier to just set and sell as is.
 

starryeyed

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Maybe just explaining something as simple as the effect of bright retail lights will help her? Maybe, if the retailer allows, she can take the ring outside and look at it, or take it to another part of the store. Maybe if she sees it in different lighting conditions her opinion will change. It would stink if she wound up disappointed and somehow you got blamed!
 

kcoursolle

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Ug...helping friends with diamond purchases is difficult. They act like they care, but often they just want flash for cash or want to buy the ring as quick as possible. I would warn her of the possible disadvantages and encourage an appraisal, but beyond that I wouldn''t push advice unless she asks again.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/3/2006 11:13:50 PM
Author: DBM
Sometimes stones that are say j or below and/or about SI3 or less are simply not certified by anyone. easier to just set and sell as is.
you betcha! I found the ring (It is a generic ring) online and it says they are 1.75 ctw, J+, I (for included) with no designation of HOW included. I think she''s just looking for black inclusions and I fully expect to put loupe to it and find bubbles everywhere :/ That''s what heavily included stones look like to me... she probably thought they were really pretty swirly facets!
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/3/2006 11:33:02 PM
Author: starryeyed
Maybe just explaining something as simple as the effect of bright retail lights will help her? Maybe, if the retailer allows, she can take the ring outside and look at it, or take it to another part of the store. Maybe if she sees it in different lighting conditions her opinion will change. It would stink if she wound up disappointed and somehow you got blamed!
noooo she wouldn''t blame me. She knows I''ll help her find a gorgeous stone if she wants one... she has this ring I really want to photograph (and she said I could lol) that is from her husband''s family (he''s indian/pakitstani) and they apparently owned a mine in india generations ago... anyway it''s got 7 stones that just KAPOW color out of them... I think they''re either very large single cuts or OEC stone... I''m dying to go back over there with my loupe lol I dn''t think she''s impressed with diamonds in general so much as wants a beautiful ring and is *owed* an engagement ring much like I am LOL
 

Cehrabehra

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just in case anyone is curious... here''s a pic of the ring.

cbfriendring.jpg
 

pyramid

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Cehrabehra

You wrote it was in a department store, do you mean like Costco or well known one if it was online.

I would think a large department store would not have fracture filled diamonds but who knows, anyway if it is fracture filled it should have a color flash effect which goes from one flash to another when it is viewed almost parallel to the break. I just learned this from reading it online.

As you said though it sounds like a generic included diamond, so as long as she knows that and knows she cannot get a better one in that size for the price then she has nothing to lose. It is bad when one doesn't know anything and thinks they have bought something of rare value for a lot of money to them and then finds out it is not the quality they expected. Sometimes it is not the sellers fault but the buyer who hasn't educated themselves in diamond qualities and price points and different markets selling similar diamonds at different prices or better diamonds at lower prices.

Everything has a different value to everybody, I want the near perfect diamond but I couldn't care less about spending a ton of money on a handbag as long as it is pretty to me and wears good, she probably feels the same way about the diamond ring. It doesn't mean she is buying rubbish if she is getting what she paid for, she probably sees it as good quality but not elite quality.
 

Cehrabehra

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.

cbfriendring2.jpg
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/4/2006 11:33:52 AM
Author: Pyramid
Cehrabehra

You wrote it was in a department store, do you mean like Costco or well known one if it was online.

I would think a large department store would not have fracture filled diamonds but who knows, anyway if it is fracture filled it should have a color flash effect which goes from one flash to another when it is viewed almost parallel to the break. I just learned this from reading it online.

As you said though it sounds like a generic included diamond, so as long as she knows that and knows she cannot get a better one in that size for the price then she has nothing to lose. It is bad when one doesn't know anything and thinks they have bought something of rare value for a lot of money to them and then finds out it is not the quality they expected. Sometimes it is not the sellers fault but the buyer who hasn't educated themselves in diamond qualities and price points and different markets selling the same thing at different prices.

Everything has a different value to everybody, I want a good diamond but I couldn't care less about spending a ton of money on a handbag as long as it is pretty to me and wears good, she probably feels the same way about the diamond ring. It doesn't mean she is buying rubbish if she is getting what she paid for, she probably sees it as good quality but not elite quality.
I'm going to go to the store later and look at it though I should wait until friday and go look *with* her. Definitely gonna ask about if they're filled. This is the same store that told me that my cushion wasn't cut right and that's why it had a bow tie and proceeded to show me a crushed ice cushion with three HUGE inclusions right under the table (think snowman face lol) and tell me that *this* was how a cushion SHOULD be cut. I am not a fan of that cushion cut in general but that ugly little stone is better than mine? haha

as for the friend, I don't think it's because she doesn't KNOW better I think it's because she doesn't *care*. She sees it as a whole package and in a way I get that because of my own battle between wanting the perfect round and the overall ring I'd get with a cushion.
 

DBM

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Date: 12/4/2006 11:41:32 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 12/4/2006 11:33:52 AM
Author: Pyramid
Cehrabehra

You wrote it was in a department store, do you mean like Costco or well known one if it was online.

I would think a large department store would not have fracture filled diamonds but who knows, anyway if it is fracture filled it should have a color flash effect which goes from one flash to another when it is viewed almost parallel to the break. I just learned this from reading it online.

As you said though it sounds like a generic included diamond, so as long as she knows that and knows she cannot get a better one in that size for the price then she has nothing to lose. It is bad when one doesn''t know anything and thinks they have bought something of rare value for a lot of money to them and then finds out it is not the quality they expected. Sometimes it is not the sellers fault but the buyer who hasn''t educated themselves in diamond qualities and price points and different markets selling the same thing at different prices.

Everything has a different value to everybody, I want a good diamond but I couldn''t care less about spending a ton of money on a handbag as long as it is pretty to me and wears good, she probably feels the same way about the diamond ring. It doesn''t mean she is buying rubbish if she is getting what she paid for, she probably sees it as good quality but not elite quality.
I''m going to go to the store later and look at it though I should wait until friday and go look *with* her. Definitely gonna ask about if they''re filled. This is the same store that told me that my cushion wasn''t cut right and that''s why it had a bow tie and proceeded to show me a crushed ice cushion with three HUGE inclusions right under the table (think snowman face lol) and tell me that *this* was how a cushion SHOULD be cut. I am not a fan of that cushion cut in general but that ugly little stone is better than mine? haha

as for the friend, I don''t think it''s because she doesn''t KNOW better I think it''s because she doesn''t *care*. She sees it as a whole package and in a way I get that because of my own battle between wanting the perfect round and the overall ring I''d get with a cushion.
As long as she knows that it''s not much of an "investment" (i.e. she can''t really turn around and sell it to someone should she want to later) and she''s just buying it for the beauty of how it makes her feel. why not. let her buy it and enjoy (assuming as mentioned above the showcase lights aren''t what''s making it look pretty to her of course)
 

codex57

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That''s pretty frightening, but if she loves it... After all, a diamond''s "worth" is pretty much just defined by how much someone is willing to pay for it. If she doesn''t mind the fact that she may be overpaying for it, then it''s no big deal.
 

pyramid

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I would never think of a diamond as an investment as I wouldn't ever get back as much money from selling it as I originally spent, unless ofcourse I owned a $100 million dollar red diamond
I remember a woman at my work one day saying about her jewellery and her engagement ring, which was a sapphire with little diamonds (British small) a lovely ring but probably cost about $1200 or less considering she was married about 30 years, she then went on to us all about nice jewellery and it not being a waste because it was an investment. I nearly said something but thought I wouldn't get into that one after reading about all these expensive diamonds. To her that ring was worth a lot of money and I think she thought it was worth more monetary wise than it would have been.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/4/2006 7:53:55 PM
Author: Pyramid
I would never think of a diamond as an investment as I wouldn''t ever get back as much money from selling it as I originally spent, unless ofcourse I owned a $100 million dollar red diamond
I remember a woman at my work one day saying about her jewellery and her engagement ring, which was a sapphire with little diamonds (British small) a lovely ring but probably cost about $1200 or less considering she was married about 30 years, she then went on to us all about nice jewellery and it not being a waste because it was an investment. I nearly said something but thought I wouldn''t get into that one after reading about all these expensive diamonds. To her that ring was worth a lot of money and I think she thought it was worth more monetary wise than it would have been.
A few months ago I showed her several "square" diamonds and she is interested in asschers too and found one on Blue Nile that was a 1 carat IF H or something and I begged her not to do IF and she said something about investments and I said noooo they''re not invesetments they''re luxuries and she said but some people and I said yeah think of it like a car - you drive it off the lot and you just lost money - the people "investing" in these are buying really special stones and storing them in a deposit box, not wearing them. So good news is I think I''ve convinced her to let me help her is she should go asscher but I also think that''s down the road someday maybe in addition to this ring.



Okay - update - I talked to her tonight after I found out the stone in the ring was only 3/4 carat which then changed the prices of what I was looking at so she might consider whiteflash.... she''s actually going to be in houston in a week or so sooo...... I''m going to shoot them off an email and see if I can get her some quotes!! I hope she goes for the wf princess or even the xfactor!! I know she''ll love me for ''making'' her get a high quality stone!!!
 

decodelighted

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Hey .. check this out ... Whiteflash has made almost an exact replica of that ring your friend wants! Crazy co-ink-i-dink!!!
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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Wow, it does look very much the same. It is a lovely design.
 

Cehrabehra

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wow deco - that''s amazingly similar!! the only diffs I see (aside from *gorgeous* diamonds haha) is the four corners vs the half bezel/channel for the main stone and on ''her'' ring there''s another diamond UNDER the main diamond.... and the wf ring isn''t a complete ''illusion'' setting on the small princesses - but.... it''s holy moly close!! Thank you for thinking of me, us :)
 

decodelighted

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I kinda like this version BETTER! I wonder if your friend will ... wouldn''t that be CRAZY .. just seeing something in a "grocery store" jewelry case and being able to have a super-ideal version of it for a great price???
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/5/2006 1:28:12 PM
Author: decodelighted
I kinda like this version BETTER! I wonder if your friend will ... wouldn''t that be CRAZY .. just seeing something in a ''grocery store'' jewelry case and being able to have a super-ideal version of it for a great price???
I know, I know... I keep hoping that she''ll *get* the whole light thing.... she has said to me SO many times, "i just don''t care about light return or whatever" and yesterday I asked her why she really wanted a *diamond* if she didn''t care if it behaved like a diamond should.... I think that got to her. I don''t want her to spend more money, but I really think she can get better quality for the same money or close enough to it. It''s hard for me to show her a nicely cut diamond because the only one I have is mine and it''s not a princess and it''s almost 4x the size so it''s way too easy to blame those factors for the bling bling when *I* can tell by looking at the barely sparkleof the poor princess and think oh.... for a lifetime? really?
 

Cehrabehra

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update, ugh... LOL

Well, I got a quote from WF which was reasonable, but it took a couple days longer than I hoped and of course, idle hands.... right? haha! So the friend went to zales. Found a ring very similar to the other one she liked except this time it''s going to be certified - certified to be at *least* H/I and I1 or I2 quality! Yes, guaranteed to be at least I2! And this one is going to have a full carat center.... she is actually going to be in houston next week and she admits she likes the x factor.... but I think she''s really set on having any old diamond. Yes, apparently some people, even with armed with knowledge, elect to buy frozen spit because when it breaks they will replace it FREE with more frozen spit!!!!! I give up!! I''m sure she''ll be happy with her diamond and that''s all that really matters in the end.
 

pyramid

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Well it is really as long as she is happy with it. As said in another thread by others, there are people who would rather spend lots of money on experiences, others save money for an expensive item. Some spend their money on nick nacks and things some would think are a waste of money. I would not buy an expensive handbag, well maybe one but that would be my lot. I would have many generic handbags. The people who are into designer handbags would probably look at my handbags in the same way we would look at the diamond your friend is choosing. To us, well the majority here on this diamond board, her diamond is not a good choice. However if we look even within this board some people would choose a VVS1 some an SI2.

Maybe we are too critical, looking at the picture the ring does look pretty, we may see a difference in the sparkle or clarity with our eyes but she would not. In the same way someone looks at a generic handbag and sees it is not as soft, quilty, the trim on it is rough at the edges, the stitching is not as good, others would just see a handbag to carry things in and at a glance it looks good. Makes me think sometimes if this is knowing good quality and looking for it or being too picky about things. Afterall most people look at a ring on a finger and just thing pretty. If you saw someone with a tennis bracelet on would you look at the stones to see how great the clarity and colour were, well after reading this board maybe, but before coming on here, most would not.

Quality has a price, are we connoiseurs now that we know what to look for? Can we afford to be connoiseurs of everything we may want to buy? I think it is good when we are taught to buy within our means, say an SI1 stone which shows no flaws to the naked eye and we can get a good diamond. The thing is how many people have increased their budget when they got more obsessed with diamonds and could they really afford that in the grand scheme of things. If a billionaire and money is no option we would probably go for the best. As it is we have to make compromises. Your friend may buy a cheap diamond but go for top quality in something else. They say even billionaires are rich because they watched how they got and spent their money.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 12/10/2006 1:25:39 PM
Author: Pyramid
Well it is really as long as she is happy with it. As said in another thread by others, there are people who would rather spend lots of money on experiences, others save money for an expensive item. Some spend their money on nick nacks and things some would think are a waste of money. I would not buy an expensive handbag, well maybe one but that would be my lot. I would have many generic handbags. The people who are into designer handbags would probably look at my handbags in the same way we would look at the diamond your friend is choosing. To us, well the majority here on this diamond board, her diamond is not a good choice. However if we look even within this board some people would choose a VVS1 some an SI2.

Maybe we are too critical, looking at the picture the ring does look pretty, we may see a difference in the sparkle or clarity with our eyes but she would not. In the same way someone looks at a generic handbag and sees it is not as soft, quilty, the trim on it is rough at the edges, the stitching is not as good, others would just see a handbag to carry things in and at a glance it looks good. Makes me think sometimes if this is knowing good quality and looking for it or being too picky about things. Afterall most people look at a ring on a finger and just thing pretty. If you saw someone with a tennis bracelet on would you look at the stones to see how great the clarity and colour were, well after reading this board maybe, but before coming on here, most would not.

Quality has a price, are we connoiseurs now that we know what to look for? Can we afford to be connoiseurs of everything we may want to buy? I think it is good when we are taught to buy within our means, say an SI1 stone which shows no flaws to the naked eye and we can get a good diamond. The thing is how many people have increased their budget when they got more obsessed with diamonds and could they really afford that in the grand scheme of things. If a billionaire and money is no option we would probably go for the best. As it is we have to make compromises. Your friend may buy a cheap diamond but go for top quality in something else. They say even billionaires are rich because they watched how they got and spent their money.
You''re right.... I''m sure there are things they are looser with, but I guess my ''disappointment'' shall we say, is that she really isn''t saving any money. Maybe a couple hundred. And the sparkle or lack thereof is pretty obvious to me, but all she sees is that there is a diamond and she wants a diamond and in some ways I envy that thinking.... I came here not really knowing how much I was gonna spend but I''m pretty sure it would have been a LOT less since I wanted a 3/4 carat oval LOL I saw the price in my head go couple thou, 5 thou seems round... maybe 6... maybe 7.... 8.... and then WHOOSH it doubled and went to 15 because I decided 1 year for every year I had to wait.... and then I went over that and still haven''t got the ring done LOL! Now, all of this is in our ability to afford, but it doesn''t mean the husband wanted to spend it on a clear overpriced pebble LOL But now I have this beautiful thing... I can''t wait until I wear it! Had we done with my husband wanted to do - and gone to shane co, had I never found PS - I wouldn''t have what I have, but I also would already have something on my finger, several more thousand to spend on something else, and I likely wouldn''t be any wiser that I was missing out on something this beautiful. Or that there is even better out there if I just-spend-more-money LOL
 
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