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First time poster. Seeking advice

E

emb

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 6, 2017
Messages
27
Hey all. Really resourceful site.

Been doing my research but if I'm still short please feel free to tell me to go back and keep reading.

Looking for a diamond for the lady. Hoping for somewhere in the ballpark of 1.5 carats. I like the round cut. Also looking at a budget of 10-15k

So as far as other particulars, this is where the noob comes out. Brilliance over fire I prefer brilliance. I think she glows, and so should it. Also she's in an office a lot, so I think the lighting may give it shine. Though all that is probably secondary.

I guess as far as what has me snagged, the remaining Cs.

I'd love IF, but that's because I'm a little snobby and a lot uneducated, so reliance on a figure helps me. What is going down to VVS or VS going to do?

Color: I'd like it more white. White is nice. How far down does white go? Looking at DEF but are G or H keeping me there? Almost as much to impress her mom as it is to impress her.

And then cut. This is where I need to buckle down my research. I understand cut can have the greatest impact given light escape, but need to get my bearings on that.

Also, looking at buying online. But never gone to see a diamond. Mistake? Go look at them to get an idea? If so, amy suggestions on good ways to learn of reputable local retailers? Or stick to trusted retailers from PS?

Thanks so much for your help!!!
 
Clarity...going down to a VS allows you to get more stone for your money (or save money depending how you look at it).

Color - G/H in a well cut stone is consider very white/good value (again, allows you to go bigger)

Cut - yes, the most important. You can run stones through the HCA tool to get a quick check...stones that score 2 or under are worth
a further look.
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

Does the $10-$15k include the setting or just the stone?

Some possible examples...to maximize size. WF has a few eye-clean H/SI1s. An ACA is a top of the line super ideal branded stone...her mother
should be impressed by the cut...
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3636386.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3634977.htm
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3667407.htm

The only G they have in your price range right now.
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3802450.htm

Edit...yes, it would help to go look at some in person but you need to make sure you are looking at GIA/AGS000 well cut stones (because those are the kind of stones we are going to recommend
to you). GIA Excellent category is rather wide and allows some stones that we do not consider
to be well cut.

When looking at the GIA/AGS report look for these cut specs (these numbers help to eliminate a
lot of bad performers)

table 54-58%
depth 60-62.3%
crown angle 34-35 (sometimes 35.5)
pavilion angle 40.6 - 41 degrees
A low crown (34) pairs better with a high pavilion (41) and vice versa (35 goes best with low
pavilion 40.6)
 
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I'd stick at G VS2 for a still bright white diamond and better value. You won't be able to see inclusions on a VS2. You could even go eye-clean SI1
 
Just to give you an idea of what a D IF 1.1ct stone costs, Whiteflash has one available. And a D IF 0.9ct as well.

IMG_5186.PNG

You're much better off looking at F-G coloured stones and then dropping your clarity to VS2 or SI1 in order to get the carat weight you're looking for.
 
I've seen some of the ones from high performance before. he's a PSer right?
bmfang said:
Just to give you an idea of what a D IF 1.1ct stone costs, Whiteflash has one available. And a D IF 0.9ct as well.

IMG_5186.PNG

You're much better off looking at F-G coloured stones and then dropping your clarity to VS2 or SI1 in order to get the carat weight you're looking for.
Click to expand...

am i over-compromising by prioritizing size over cut/color?

i'd love a D/IF, but i think 1.5 ct on her finger would look nice

not totally sure on where i should be placing priority, though i am leaning ct
am i wrong in that? not a gemologist, collector, merchant
 
@whitewave

kind of liking that 1.58 good old gold
and that james allen one is really nice

concerned that the H might look dull, but in the right setting that might work
 
am i better off with a 1 ct D/IF diamond?
 
HPD are a PS recommended vendor.

If you are going to prioritise carat over cut, you can do so, but if the stone is 1.5ct and is not cut well, it will not look as good as say, a 1.3ct stone that has ideal optics.

Most, if not all, of the PSers would say that you should prioritise cut and then work out which of the other remaining 3Cs you can get for your budget.

You are unlikely to find a 1ct D/IF within your budget of 10-15k. If you do, it's likely to come with a grading report from labs that the diamond industry discounts heavily compared with the gold standards of GIA and AGS.
 
emb said:
am i better off with a 1 ct D/IF diamond?
Click to expand...
Probably not. Altho I'm not you so don't know for sure. But I'm still going to go with probably not.
The point of diamonds is to reflect light (portrait cut is one exception but a rare one).
Therefore IMO your top priority should be cut because this is where the light reflection comes from - the more precise the cut (and alignment of the facets), the more of the light bounces back to your eyes. This is a good thing. Lots of light return (ie edge to edge) can make a diamond look bigger than it is.
The other three Cs are up to you - if there is a cultural reason to prefer DEF and high clarity, go for it. But be aware that IF isn't actually flawless at all. It's just flawless at a 10x magnification. So it's flawless to a set degree of perception. Once you realise that it's somewhat arbitrary set point, you may want to re-evaluate your preference of clarity to eye-clean or some flavour of VS.. or exclude the types of inclusions that are likely to affect light return like clouds.
Find a good jeweller to look at various grades of AGS or GIA graded diamonds so you can get a sense of your colour tolerance. Diamonds are graded facing down but viewed facing up and good light return will usually appear whiter. Also the near colourless range GHI really is still white - it's not like you fall over an edge into yellow once the colour hits a G. It's also usually difficult to see tint top down unless you or your fiancée to be are especially colour sensitive. And even then, being able to pick out an I when it's surrounded by Es doesn't mean the I will actually look yellow when it's mounted and not surrounded by Es.
So get a good idea of what you like in a colour in natural light not just the jewellery store lights that will make anything look good. Make sure you're looking at properly cut diamonds like AGS 000 or maybe one of the ridiculously priced branded ones like Hearts on Fire since you can often find a store selling them.
The other and probably more important question to ask yourself is, what does your fiancée to be want? What does she value? There is a current thread in Hangout where a lady's husband proposed to her with a smallish D diamond because he wanted to give her a high-quality diamond and that was his perception of the highest quality in his budget range. Except getting the highest colour wasn't her top priority and three years later, it still makes her unhappy when she looks at her ring. So see if you can find out what your fiancée values because I'm pretty sure if you're here asking, you want your fiancée to look at her ring and smile when she sees it.
If she wants it to be a complete surprise (which I always think is just a bit mean cos, are you a mind-reader?), see if she has a Pinterest board with any inspirations or ask her friends and family. Or go browsing for watches at a good store and see what she likes in the rings.
Or just ask her which is what my husband did - I literally had no idea and he'd have had no luck with asking friends or stalking Pinterest because until I started looking I had no idea what I liked. And as it happened, I have a really strong preference for vintage stones which neither of us would have worked out if he'd guessed and bought locally.
So anyway, digression aside, ask her what she would like in broad parameters and really listen to what matters to her (even if it seems frivolous or it's not what you think should matter cos it's her ring after all). Also consider her lifestyle and work when you consider how you're going to set it. Does she want to be able to wear it all the time, can she wear it at work all the time or would she have to take it off etc?
 
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@foxinsox
so helpful
Thank you so much
The bit about D not actually being flawless made a lot of sense to me

As far as cut, all the stones I'm looking at are excellent to ideal. It's seemed from my reading that that's the most important C due to as you noted the stone's ability reflect light.

Not sure if I'm making a mistake by including excellent in the parameters but to at least that extent I am prioritizing cut over the others.

So, that said, will excellent cut suffice or stick to ideal?

Gonna take lunch to visit a jeweler friend. He's at a local chain so I'll visit letting him know I'm probably not purchasing the stone there but am likely to mount it there

Thanks again!
 
emb said:
...
As far as cut, all the stones I'm looking at are excellent to ideal. It's seemed from my reading that that's the most important C due to as you noted the stone's ability reflect light.

Not sure if I'm making a mistake by including excellent in the parameters but to at least that extent I am prioritizing cut over the others.

So, that said, will excellent cut suffice or stick to ideal?
...
Click to expand...

If you are searching for AGS graded stones, the highest cut grade is Ideal. If GIA, the highest is Excellent. Keep both in your search parameters so that you can cast as wide a net as possible as there are some beautiful GIA graded stones with parameters that are in the top echelon of GIA Excellent stones and which would also fall within the parameters of AGS Ideal Cut grade too.
 
emb said:
@whitewave

kind of liking that 1.58 good old gold
and that james allen one is really nice

concerned that the H might look dull, but in the right setting that might work
Click to expand...

Call Jonathan at GOG. He will make you a YouTube video comparing diamonds in your price range.

His you tube channel is fun to watch.
 
Spend the money on cut. Whiteflash ACA, Brian Gavin Diamonds, GOG ASCENDANCY, Victor Canera, these vendors cut their own stones to extremely high standards minimizing any leakage so your diamonds reflects the most light in the most ideal pattern. That will make the diamond "sparkly, bright, lively".

Your eyes likely will not be able to tell a D from a F unless the two stones are side to side. G will probably look very white to 95% of the population. Inclusions on a VS2 and above usually will not hav any impact on how beautiful a diamond will be to your eyes because you won't usually be able to see them without a loupe. Speaking specifically every diamond is different so when you pick a stone, choose it from a reputable vendor and they will vet it. Post it here and PSers will vet it too. To maximize size and with last last impact on color and clarity I would look for a G VS2, in the best cut you can find. Don't compromise there. However if you NEED D and VVS due to OCD issues, or culturally your GF cannot accept below a certain grade, do what you gotta do. Just know that from a visual standpoint (how beautiful the diamond will look to your eyes) it will not make a difference (most likely).
 
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@LLJsmom
Yep, gonna go look at some stones later. Want to get a feel for some differences. Also curious where price will stack up compared to online retailers
 
Hi emb :)

Looking at some stones MIGHT help - but might also just be misleading. Looking at stones for the first time is baffling. And (and take this on board BIG time) the lighting in jewelry stores is maximized SPECIFICALLY to make all diamonds look blinding. Take them out of the store - stick them on your hand - wear them around and get used to them a bit...different story! You also won't find really well cut stones in a jewelry mall store, so you won't get much out of that experience re teaching you what to look for in a very well cut stone. And believe every person on PS who will tell you that people who work in jewelry mall stores are taught to sell merchandise, not to know about diamonds. Where are you and can you get to a PS recommended vendor to look at some stones? That's the way to go if you want to learn.

I used to have an H SI1 e-ring - 2.15ct - and I loved it. It's also NOT what I'd recommend for you. H is white - no doubt about it - but it's a 'soft' white and F is definitely whiter, so if white is your thing, then I'd go with an F and stay in the colorless range. There's no need to be 'near colorless' with your budget. I have a lot of E colored stones, and I love their icy whiteness. D's, oddly, I found cold looking, but that's an entirely personal thing. For me, F VS1/VS2 is my sweet spot - and I've had a bit of everything. An H won't look dull, not will it look tinted - until you look at it sideways or compare it to a whiter stone. Then you'll see it. What it looks is 'soft' - like when you look at paint colors and there's 50 'whites'. They're all white, but some are softer. An H is like that - it's a soft white. But if you want bright white - stay in the colorless category.

What's the difference between IF and VVS or VS? Nothing you'll ever see short of a loupe or a microscope - so you'd be wise to go with a VS1 or VS2 ring. You *can* see inclusions in an SI1 stone from time to time, sometimes quite clearly, depending on the type of inclusion and its placement, but moving to the VS category will remove that problem. If you get a ring with no visible inclusions, there's no point paying for an IF over a VS ring - you can't see inclusions in either of them, so no benefit in paying the IF price tag.

And yes - cut is everything....
 
emb said:
@LLJsmom
Yep, gonna go look at some stones later. Want to get a feel for some differences. Also curious where price will stack up compared to online retailers
Click to expand...

Regular B&M shops (especially those in mall locations) will have stones of average to crap cut quality. They will try to sell you usually on colour and clarity being the main determinants of quality. If their staff are better trained, they usually will claim that all you need to worry about is whether a stone has a GIA Triple Excellent grading on cut (and not worry about anything else like proportions). Or if not that, that all labs are created equal and as long as a stone has a grading report, all is well.

As mrs-b has said, jewellery shop lighting is notorious for making every stone (no matter how well or crappily cut) sparkle and look good. It's only once you get it out of those spotlights and into diffused lighting that you can then see differences in cut quality.

As for pricing, mall shops will tend to be on the expensive side (I visited one of the major mall chains here in Australia yesterday and saw a 1ct J-K I1-I2 solitaire which apparently had a grading report on the stone in 18kt white gold selling for AUD12,999 list price :eek:; I smiled and tried not to laugh my ass off when the sales associate said that this was a beautiful stone [not with a whopper of a black crystalline inclusion right under the table that I could see with the naked eye!] and great value for money).

If there are bargains to be had (like 30-50% off), they will usually be on stones that are ungraded or stones with grading reports from labs that consistently grade looser (e.g. GSI, IGI, GSL and the one with the worst reputation of them all, EGL). So if they have for example a GIA graded H SI1 selling for say $5k, they may then have an EGL graded F VS1 which has a list price of say $8k but have a 50% discount down to $4k. In theory, sounds like a bargain until you find out that EGL tends to "upgrade" colour and clarity grades. The EGL stone could actually be a H SI1 by GIA standards (or worse).

If you are going to purchase from a B&M, ensure you go to one that is a PS recommended vendor (e.g. ID Jewelry in NYC's Diamond District, Good Old Gold in NY state and I'm sure there are others that those PSers in the USA can recommend to you as well). If you want to see decently cut stones in a B&M, I'd recommend trying to find a Hearts on Fire dealer (but keep your wallet closed as their prices are... let's just say high).
 
thanks for the help everybody. Was able to sneak out and take a look at a stone. First one!

So I can update on specifics but it's a 1.5 ct GIA very good (not excellent) F color VVS1 with a 62 table and 60 depth.

What would be a fair price on a stone like that?

Thanks again!
 
GIA graded F VVS2's with Very Good cut grade are retailing at James Allen for around $15k. Excellent cut grade GIA F VVS2s are around $17k for a 1.5ct stone.

I'd stick well away from that stone though. For one, I'm not a fan of stones where the table percentage is larger than the depth...
 
1$ lol
 
62% table?!? Are you sure about that? We really need the crown and pavillion angles for that one, and also if the girdle is thin.
 
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whitewave said:
62% table?!? Are you sure about that? We really need the crown and pavillion angles for that one, and also if the girdle is thin.
Click to expand...
Crown angle 35
Pavilion 41.4
Not sure about girdle
 
:eek::eek: It's a dog

It's too shallow, and it probably had a dark cast to it in the middle.



IMG_3190.PNG






I go back to my original value... 1$. Do not buy this stone.
 
whitewave said:
:eek::eek: It's a dog

It's too shallow, and it probably had a dark cast to it in the middle.
Click to expand...

It did! That's the same exact thing I said to him. I was like "it seems kinda dark a little bit" and he said that was impossible given color and clarity (I just kind of kept a "if you say so" to myself)
 
Good for you-- fast learner :clap:
 
emb said:
It did! That's the same exact thing I said to him. I was like "it seems kinda dark a little bit" and he said that was impossible given color and clarity (I just kind of kept a "if you say so" to myself)
Click to expand...

Sounds like what I said above about mall jewellery store sales staff only stating that colour and clarity are of any concern if a person is looking for quality. Well done on biting your tongue back at your friend!
 
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