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First time buyer - please help!

jana1120

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
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I'm getting ready to help my son ring shop for an engagement ring (its a surprise so his GF can't help). From what she has posted on Pinterest, she likes a round diamond with a very thin band w/diamonds - white gold or platinum. I've been helping him do research and it seems this site is great for help. From what I can tell buying on-line is the way to go to get the best ring for the price - true? What isn't clear is if its best to get the setting and diamond on-line or buy diamond on-line and get it set with a local jeweler. Also, which on-line place is best? I've heard blue nile, whiteflash, and James Allen are good - any thoughts on if one of these is better than another? It seems he needs to go with the highest cut he can afford, then cut back on clarity & color if needed. It also seems that going with a .9 vs 1 carat saves you quite a bit of money, but visually you can't tell the difference. Platinum seems to be the best. Read something that white gold needs to be dipped in rhodium every 2-3 years. Then there is depth & table - I guess he wants good or better? Not really sure on that one. He's a 3rd grade teacher, so his budget is $4-7K. He is thinking of going with the largest carat he could afford with an excellent cut, G color and VS-2 clarity. Would that be a decent ring and could he get a .9 carat or above for that price? Any answers or suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated!

Jana
 
HI, Jana! It is good when the diamond and setting can come from the same place. I have bought from Good Old Gold and Whiteflash more than once each, and I recommend them highly. I concur with platinum if we can help you find something that will keep him in budget. I am on my way out at the moment but will try to check in later tonight to see if anyone has suggested diamonds and settings for you. I think he'll have to drop either in size or color to stay in budget. I would recommend maybe H color and VS2 or possibly SI1 if it is eyeclean.

I helped my son-in-law choose a ring for my daughter, so I am happy to help another mom!
 
Hi there! Here are a few options, all are eye-clean and prices listed are wire prices.

0.9 carats, G, VS2 around $6600, so it will depend on how simple of a setting he's thinking about.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3408349.htm

Slightly bigger at 0.95 carats but a G, SI1. Same price as above.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3273922.htm

0.9 carats, G, SI1, $6300.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3222868.htm

0.822 carats, G, SI1, $4200.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3372541.htm

0.83 carats, G, VS2, $4400.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3157629.htm
 
Thanks diamondseeker 2006, would appreciate any help you could give.

JDDN - how do the ones you listed compare to these couple I found on blue nile & JA. There are many others on this site in this price range that are less expensive with better quality than the ones you listed around the $6,600 range. There must be something I'm not looking at, what am I missing?

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?stockno=LD05889613

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.90-carat-g-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-444600

Thanks so much,

Jana
 
If shopping WF I'd probably stick to their expert selection given your budget and desired carat size. First you should find the setting you like and then we can help find a stone that will fit his budget.
 
Solgen,
The setting he will go with will be something like this. She likes a thin band w/diamonds.

http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/pave/platinum-thin-french-cut-pave-set-diamond-engagement-ring-item-2018

He doesn't know which on-line place to go with - which is better, if there is a better one.

Is something like this diamond a good choice? This seems to be higher quality than the ones previously posted for WF and less expensive, so I think I'm missing something, but not sure what.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.90-carat-g-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-444600
 
The first and most important aspect of quality is the cut. The WF stones are all superior cut and that may be why those have a higher price. James Allen also has some nice diamonds mixed in with others that are not so good. The key there is to narrow down the selection to the three best stones in his budget, and then you can request the light return images (ASET) on those.

Looking at the stone you linked, I put the numbers into the HCA cut tool.

https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

It came out with a score of 2.5 very good. We recommend stones that score 2.0 or less and a total score of excellent. The four areas assessed numerically are light return, fire, scintillation, and spread. You should look for stones that score excellent on the first three of those and very good on spread.

When I search, I use these parameters on GIA Excellent cut stones as most combinations will result in a score of 2 or less (and it is not the case that a 1.0 is better than 1.5, this is a screener and any stone with a score under 2 is worth considering, particularly if you can access the ASET or idealscope images).

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0

pavilion angle: 40.6-41.0'

VVS2 is overkill as far as clarity goes as you are paying for something invisible. VS1 and VS2 are usually totally eyeclean (VS1 always), and many people here look for eyeclean SI1 ideal cut stones to get more size.
 
I looked at all the links you provided from BN and JA. To see the crown angle and pavilion angle often times you will need to click on the GIA report icon.

There are a few that may be good choices and a few that I would advise against.

When you say that the BN and JA stones are better quality than the WF stones, I'm not sure I understand your definition of quality. For most of us on PS, quality will come down to how ideal the cut is since the cut is what gives the diamond the sparkle, brilliance and fire. And with that definition I would argue that a WF ACA is at the top of quality.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?stockno=LD05889613
- could be a nice stone, although the table is rather large. It will face up bright, but at the expense of fire.
- had medium blue fluorescence. Please verify there are no negative affects such as milkiness or haziness.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.90-carat-g-color-vvs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-444600
- Crown angle is a bit steep and crown height a bit deep at 16%. Could be okay, but without an ASET or IS, hard to say as GIA rounds numbers.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.90-carat-g-color-vs1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-564519
- Crown angle too shallow. Will have a pancake look to it.

http://www.bluenile.com/build-your-own-ring/diamond-details/LD05800645
- Crown angle a bit steep again.
- A bit deep overall but not too bad given the thicker girdle
- Strong blue fluorescence. Again, just verify there are no negative affects. With fluorescence the diamond will have a slight blue cast to it in some lighting environments.

Out of your links, the two BN stones would by my top picks as long as you verify there are no negative affects of the fluorescence. Also hopefully the GF doesn't mind a little blue cast to her diamond in certain lighting.

A nice aspect of the WF stones are that all the performance images are there for you. You know exactly what performance you'll get as the IS and ASET are there for you. No guessing or hoping it's nice, you already know! The ACA stones are all Ideal so no need to worry about the crown angles, pavilion angles, etc.

@Solgen:
The links I provided that were ACA stones were better overall and better for the price than the ES in the same range/parameters.
 
Wow, that is a lot of info. You guys are experts and most of the terms you use go over my head, and definitely my 25 year old son's head. He definitely wants a good ring, but neither of us are sure how picky to be and how important getting the best of every single factor other than cut is. Will a 23 year old young lady who is a complete novice on diamonds even notice the slight differences in stones or would she be completely thrilled with any of these? The ASET images, while I know they are important, mean nothing to us lay people. We can't tell one from another. I'm thinking maybe it would be better for him to shop at a jewelry store where he can actually talk to someone and see the diamonds and settings rather than trying to buy loose diamonds and settings on-line. I really appreciate the help from everyone, but honestly we both feel more overwhelmed now than we did before I asked the questions on here!

Jana
 
Oh, goodness, we don't mean to overwhelm. Our goal is to help people narrow down the best stones within their budget. He is FAR more likely to get a worse cut stone and pay too much for it locally. Please don't give up yet!

My advice is never to buy a diamond blind (no pictures), so that eliminates BN. Please stick with James Allen if you want to buy from that type of vendor because they do have excellent videos. If you could just stick with the parameters I gave you, I think you could narrow down three stones. I prefer Whiteflash and Good Old Gold because they have already done that work for me, but certainly, if it would mean saving money, by all means try to narrow down the better stones on James Allen.

You can either use the HCA or use the parameters I listed for table, depth, etc. I will check back later today. I am sorry but I just don't have time this morning to try and search through the stones for you. If you narrow your search to G-H VS1-VS2, that should make the search more manageable. I think the advanced search will at least allow you to put in table and depth parameters.
 
Oh no! I think I may have contributed to you feeling overwhelmed! Apologies for doing so. I mean well, really I do!

As DS said, you will will pay more money for inferior products at a jewelry store. Please don't give up, we will help find some diamonds in your son's budget within the parameters we specified. The setting won't be hard to get at a reasonable price.

I see Tyty had some suggestions in your new thread and I'll look some over on JA's website too.

Also, we will help interpret an IS or ASET so don't worry if you have no clue what's good or not so good.
 
Hi Jana,

When buying diamonds knowledge = better diamond or more money in your pocket.

Some people will feel more comfortable shopping at a jewelry store because we can actually see the diamonds (re talk to someone, online jewelers are usually very responsive too, albeit some more so than the others). Just to give you some perspective though, you can get comparable stones for 20-35% cheaper than brick & mortar (B&M) stores. Putting it another way, jewelry store prices their diamonds 25-53% higher than online stores (due to higher overhead cost: staff, lease, physical inventory etc).

The downside of online stores is that we cannot see the diamond with our own eyes. Sure some of them have tried their best to make it easier for us to visualize it by providing pictures, videos, light performance images and all, but it's not quite the same as being able to look at it with our own eyes.

And you are right, she may be thrilled with whatever you and your son pick. When I visited a B&M stores for the first few times, I couldn't really tell readily the difference between their "regular" diamonds with their (supposedly) top of the line Hearts & Arrows diamonds. And a lot of people can't, otherwise those B&M stores won't be able to survive (one thing to note though, buying diamond at a local store is not easy either. The store lighting is designed to be like a make-up. It can make 5/10 diamonds look 8/10. Perhaps that explains why it's more difficult to distinguish the so-so from the good ones.

When you come to PS though, you'll meet quite a few diamond enthusiasts who are obsessed about cut and finding the best possible diamond, more than "lay people" may care (we need Pfunk here to help balance the expectations :) ). And yes, unless your future daughter in law hangs around with other diamond enthusiasts or someone who sports an ideal (or should I say super ideal) cut diamond, she may not notice these "slight" differences in stones, ever.

As to your question on which online stores to choose from. I agree w/ DS, it is risky to buy a diamond blind. With so many options available, let's eliminate Blue Nile. Should you care about getting the cream of the crop, you can look at Whiteflash, Brian Gavin Diamonds, High Performance Diamonds, Victor Canera and Good Old Gold (just to name a few). Sure, their prices might seem slightly higher. The good thing is they have done the filtering for you so you may be less overwhelmed with the options (e.g. they weed out the less ideal ones, those with crown & pavilion angles outside the ideal range etc.) I find that valuable. And yes, if you care about finding an ideal diamond, you kind of need to read up on ASET and Ideal Scope images, because that is usually how people can tell if a diamond will perform well or not (in absence of our own eyes).

You can also look at James Allen, B2C Jewels and Enchanted Diamonds. A lot of their diamonds are better than just "good". You can find great stones with those vendors. You'll just have to sift through larger inventory and do the weeding on your own.

On top of the things DS & JDDN mentioned, what we may want to help with is to minimize buyer's remorse. Personally, it's not a good feeling to have spent 4-7k and find out down the road either I could have had it for ~75% what I had paid or that I could get a much better item at the same price point (more about principle vs the actual amt of $$ involved). Others may find the savings are not worth the hassle.

It is normal to find all these overwhelming. Buying diamonds can indeed be overwhelming at first. It gets easier though and can even be a fun process. And yes, I read somewhere it normally takes guys about 3 months of research etc. before they make their purchase. It is an important (and sentimental) purchase after all.

Call/email some of the online vendors directly, they may be able to provide you with some guidance and make this less overwhelming for you.
 
D_|1437590337|3906155 said:
When you come to PS though, you'll meet quite a few diamond enthusiasts who are obsessed about cut and finding the best possible diamond, more than "lay people" may care (we need Pfunk here to help balance the expectations :) ).

:lol: :lol: :lol:

A balance of opinions is a good thing though right? ;) I certainly still value a very well cut diamond. My opinion is that the subtle differences between cream of the crop superideal and ideal cut diamonds are often overstated here and prospective buyers made to believe they stand to lose a great deal of beauty if they purchase anything other than a superideal. The beauty of typical ideal cuts is simultaneously downplayed.

Your post is wonderful D_. It hits on so many points and summarizes it all very well. No doubt it is an overwhelming process. I was a first time buyer not long ago, and knew absolutely nothing about diamonds before I found this site. There is a WEALTH of info here and I can't even venture a guess as to how many hours I spent reading here nonstop before I ever made a post. I researched for probably 4 months before making a purchase, and am SO glad I did. We ended up with something we couldn't be more pleased with, and also came away with friendships with both the online vendor from whom I got the stone and the local jeweler who provided the setting.

I am confident you will enjoy the process if you take the time to educate yourself, and you will end up with a finished product you are very proud of!
 
Pfunk definitely did the research and chose an outstanding cut stone. He was just willing to do the hard work of finding one in a sea of diamonds of varying quality. I do not necessarily recommend super-ideal cut stones when someone is looking for a $5k stone and doesn't specifically state that they desire that. Even WF and GOG sell diamonds that are not super-ideal and they offer policies that the virtual inventories don't offer.

But I have no problem recommending stones from places like JA or ED if they provide the images.

ED has some nice possibilities but this one has images and looks great! Price is just over $4k!

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Round/GIA-Certified-0-9-Carat-G-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-4J7DL8
 
While I love the look of the setting your son has selected, at 1.6 - 1.7 mm, it is thinner than we generally recommend for a pave-set band. Please look through this thread: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/are-rings-too-thin-these-days.155780/ Your son (and his GF, if this look is her preference) should be aware that if this setting is worn regularly, in the course of normal day-to-day activities, there's a good likelihood that she'll lose sidestones from time to time, and the ring could easily go out of round.
 
Hi, jana -- there is another, fine and expeditious option that might appeal to you/your son. Neil Beaty & John Pollard are longtime Trade members of the Pricescope community who have contributed very informative useful articles & also are valued for their responses to questions posted on the forum; John posts under his full name, Neil's forum username is denverappraiser.

The two of them recently launched http://www.prodiamondadvisor.com, a kind of "personal shopper" service; they survey the inventories of Whiteflash, Good Old Gold, and B2C & provide recommendations of stones, from more than 1 vendor, geared to your basic specifications -- with no obligation or fee on your part (these 3 well regarded vendors pay a flat monthly fee to PDA; Neil and John are not working on a sales commission basis). Given the caliber of the 3 vendors they have selected for the initial launch phase & the depth of knowledge-expertise and the integrity and personable demeanor that John & Neil have consistently displayed here on Pricescope, I think your son would be in very good hands!

For more info about PDA & John and Neil, hit the tabs at the top of the home page linked above.
 
Thank you so much for the responses. I have been out of town on vacation, but am back now. I am heading to DC today to look at rings in jewelry stores with my son just to get an idea of what we are looking for and their prices. Then we will compare to what we can find on-line. Really, really appreciate all the info.

Thoughts on platinum vs. white gold? She wants a thin band (pave type) with diamonds based on what she has posted on Pinterest. Have seen some platinum bands around $1,600. Is it better to spend 1/2 that and get white gold and put the money into the diamond? Also saw the comment about a thin band not wearing well. Is there a certain band thickness we should try and stay above if she wants to wear it everyday?

Seems white flash is the online choice for most of you. I've gotten advice here to get setting and stone at the same place, but white flash doesn't seem to have very limited setting choices for what we are looking for.

The search begins in earnest today. The surprise proposal is next month during a couples photo shoot they won from a photographer. The plan was originally for next year, so he had plenty of time to research, but this photo shoot came up suddenly, so we have a month to research and find a ring - yikes!

Thanks again. May post some online choices after we store shop and get some feedback if that's ok?

Jana
 
Thanks for all the helpful info. We went to a local jeweler today and really liked the settings they had. Much more than any we have seen at any of the online sites. We told them what we were looking for in a diamond. I had my table of recommendations from you all handy. Here is what they showed my son. A GiA certified diamond. The certificate said SI1, F, excellent cut, depth 62.2, table 59, crown 35, pavilion 41.2. When I put the parameters into the HCA tool the rating only comes out good at a 4.1. The price for a 14 carat pave setting with .25 in diamonds and the solitaire was $7k. How can the GIA certificate rate it an excellent cut when it comes out as good on the HCA ? I feel like this diamond is a bad buy. And I think he should go down to a lower color and up on the clarity. Thoughts anyone?
 
jana1120|1438821075|3911672 said:
Thanks for all the helpful info. We went to a local jeweler today and really liked the settings they had. Much more than any we have seen at any of the online sites. We told them what we were looking for in a diamond. I had my table of recommendations from you all handy. Here is what they showed my son. A GiA certified diamond. The certificate said SI1, F, excellent cut, depth 62.2, table 59, crown 35, pavilion 41.2. When I put the parameters into the HCA tool the rating only comes out good at a 4.1. The price for a 14 carat pave setting with .25 in diamonds and the solitaire was $7k. How can the GIA certificate rate it an excellent cut when it comes out as good on the HCA ? I feel like this diamond is a bad buy. And I think he should go down to a lower color and up on the clarity. Thoughts anyone?


GIA ex has a wide margin so you use the HCA tool to further select. Then you obtain a ASET to see how the light performance actually is.

An eye clean SI1 is fine but you could go with a VS1 or VS2. Depending on color sensitivity you can go down to H or I. But G is a nice sweet spot that will look very white even to those with discerning eyes. Even H or I can suffice though.

The .9 from WF is nice but the crown is a little steep IMO and partially leads to some light loss.
 
Yup, can safely go down to G.
SI1 is good enough if it's eye clean.
WF stone is a good combination of the 4Cs in your parameters - and price is relatively good.
The light leakage is minor and likely won't be noticeable for a diamond that size.

PS: It's easier if you just maintain 1 thread. If you haven't received any response, just post something new in the existing thread so it gets bumped. Difficult to keep track w/ multiple threads
 
That's a very nice stone and I agree that the amount of slight leakage will not be noticeable.
 
Hi Jana,

I think you could possibly get a bigger size without compromising beauty.
ACA will be a guaranteed beautifully cut stone that is especially cut; and understandibly comes at some premium compared to the virtual inventory.

If you do some homework you can have a well cut some from JA with a slightly bigger carat size with a well proportioned GIA Excellent. With JA you will have to request ASET images and maybe post them here if you wanted to go down that route.

This is a 1.08 carat, which is .18 bigger than the 0.9, a definite visual difference in size

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.08-carat-g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-554291
 
gm89uk said:
Hi Jana,

I think you could possibly get a bigger size without compromising beauty.
ACA will be a guaranteed beautifully cut stone that is especially cut; and understandibly comes at some premium compared to the virtual inventory.

If you do some homework you can have a well cut some from JA with a slightly bigger carat size with a well proportioned GIA Excellent. With JA you will have to request ASET images and maybe post them here if you wanted to go down that route.

This is a 1.08 carat, which is .18 bigger than the 0.9, a definite visual difference in size

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.08-carat-g-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-554291

The stone she posted is not an ACA, it's an Expert Selection, GIA stone.

From what I've surmised, your son would rather have a VS quality stone so I don't believe you'll find something much larger in your budget than the WF you posted. Also I know things got a little overwhelming weeding out all the bad contenders in GIA's 3x category. You could find something on JA but it will be similar to looking through BN as you will want to look at crown angles, pavilion angles, table and depth and request performance imaging and then post here for interpretation. WF Expert Selection is typically a good value and the plus is that they provide all the performance imaging for you up front. If you want to keep it simple, the stone you chose is a nice option. If you want to pick and choose and hunt around, we are happy to help.
 
I was trying to do what mrs-blop & pfunk did on another thread.
Look at Blue Nile, after entering the desired parameters (including depth, table size etc.) the list becomes much more manageable (still ~100 though).
Then do a search of the GIA report # to possibly see some stones also listed on Enchanted Diamonds, B2C or other vendors that provide at least the image of the diamonds. You can then proceed by requesting for the IS & ASET images if they are available.
There aren't that many diamonds on BN which images you can find that way though.
(mrs-blop & pfunk, if you are reading this, how did you do it?)

I was also curious to see the price difference with WF and other vendors which supply super ideal cut diamonds.
BN's price shows greater variance.
As you get closer and closer to the parameters of super ideal, the price becomes quite comparable to those other vendors.
(I think the BN signatures I saw were priced similar, if not higher actually. That makes it easier to choose.)
You can find diamonds within that close parameters which price on average is ~5% lower than those vendors.
I'll chalk it up to the price of convenience of having images handy, no drop-ship etc.
But to each his/her own.

Jana, how would you describe the diamond you and your son saw? Was it pretty? What was the carat size and dimensions?
 
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