Fire has its roots in brilliance, or vice versa

[oldminer]

You can design more colored light return with some faceting designs, but only so much light comes back to your eyes. Since fire is controlled, or limited by the constant of dispersion available in diamond, if you increase visible fire, you decrease white light return. It is a personal choice, I suppose, if one wishes to have a diamond which displays more fire, but the current cutting strategy employed in the commercial markets limits fire to a component which is not really counted in the overall quality of cut or light performance. Fire may be reported on some lab reports, but the total light return is going to be no greater due to fire or not.

Since fire is extremely light and view distance dependent, and is an inherent characteristic of diamond material, I can''t see much reason to preomote it as a meaningful additional measure. All finely cut diamonds do display fire in the lighting which promotes it and that is a part of why people like the looks of diamond. In the right lighting it is always present.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 4/18/2010 6:32:05 AM
Author: Iiro
Karl K,


do you think you can control the shape of virtual facets? Most of them are polygons of various shapes.

sure can :}

 

[Iiro]

Karl K,

now it is a good chance for you to send a pic of a diamond you have designed to have controlled shape of virtual facets.

 

[Serg]

Date: 4/19/2010 8:38:18 AM
Author: Iiro
Karl K,


now it is a good chance for you to send a pic of a diamond you have designed to have controlled shape of virtual facets.

I do not believe in possibility to control the shape VF''s for tilting even in small range. it could be possible only for FaceUp, Cyclops View and very simple cuts.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

I agree, Sergey,

And I would add a further limitation of it only being possible on the design-table, not in production.

Live long,

 

[Karl_K]

I very strongly disagree every diamond design is about controlling the virtual facets.
The size, location and how they react are all part of a diamonds design.

The best known example was when I redesigned Octavia between the 1st prototype and the 1st production.

Some of my extreme examples are covered by a nda...
But here is one in gemstones that will work in diamond with suitable changes.
http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/gem_designs/bola_spider/index.shtml

Some other examples would be:

Or the real world examples: (not designed by me)

In every one of those facets where used to control the patterns created by the virtual facets.

 

[Serg]

Date: 4/19/2010 2:53:10 PM
Author: Karl_K
I very strongly disagree every diamond design is about controlling the virtual facets.

The size, location and how they react are all part of a diamonds design.


The best known example was when I redesigned Octavia between the 1st prototype and the 1st production.


Some of my extreme examples are covered by a nda...

But here is one in gemstones that will work in diamond with suitable changes.

http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/gem_designs/bola_spider/index.shtml


Some other examples would be:

Or the real world examples: (not designed by me)

In every one of those facets where used to control the patterns created by the virtual facets.

Karl, I think you just missed point. In your example there are different shapes of VS''s

Point is what you can not create cut which has only rectangular VS''s ( for FaceUp and Tilting positions)

 

[oldminer]

Are the last few posts related to the original topic? It is escaping me if these posts and replies are addressing the fire versus brilliance issue.

 

[Serg]

Date: 4/19/2010 3:21:56 PM
Author: oldminer
Are the last few posts related to the original topic? It is escaping me if these posts and replies are addressing the fire versus brilliance issue.

yes, all other posts have connection with original Topic and Iiro questions
but for my opinion the shape of VF's is not main issue in Fire ( there are a lot of others much more important questions which related to Fire Phenomena )

For example Size of VF's

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 4/19/2010 3:13:09 PM
Author: Serg

Karl, I think you just missed point. In your example there are different shapes of VS's


Point is what you can not create cut which has only rectangular VS's ( for FaceUp and Tilting positions)

Not 100% all of one type but I can create or change a cut so the majority of the virtual facets are the shape I want.
I can and do tune different parts of the same diamond to react the way I want them to and help balance a design by changing the virtual facets in those areas.


solution to the problem you presented...long thin rectangular like.. no problem...see below....

But getting back to my point VF shape is as important as the area when it comes to fire production.

 

[Serg]

Date: 4/19/2010 4:20:35 PM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 4/19/2010 3:13:09 PM

Author: Serg


Karl, I think you just missed point. In your example there are different shapes of VS's



Point is what you can not create cut which has only rectangular VS's ( for FaceUp and Tilting positions)

Not 100% all of one type but I can create or change a cut so the majority of the virtual facets are the shape I want.

I can and do tune different parts of the same diamond to react the way I want them to and help balance a design by changing the virtual facets in those areas.



solution to the problem you presented...long thin rectangular like.. no problem...see below....


But getting back to my point VF shape is as important as the area when it comes to fire production.

Karl,

"it could be possible only for FaceUp, Cyclops View and very simple cuts." In Your example you used ALL these 3 conditions + very limited (2) number of reflections.

 

[Iiro]

Karl K,

Nobody is perfect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLW5jzHsW7c

You did demonstrade you can control the VF's to certain level under certain conditions.

Why the shape is important?

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 4/20/2010 1:29:56 AM
Author: Iiro

Why the shape is important?

I could show you in about 2 minutes in person but explaining it will take hours.
Different shaped virtual facets react different from each other across a wide range of lighting and tilt in much the same way different sizes do.
One simple demo take a well cut long EC, now tilt it the long way(end to end) and pay attention to how the virtual facets act in the center section, then tilt it from side to side across the narrow way.
Side to side you are tilting narrow virtual facets the other way very wide ones.
The difference in the appearance of the scintillation and fire is very striking.
Which brings up another point, non-round and non-square stones and other not mirrored on all sides designs have 3 distinct plains of motion (end to end, side to side, corner to corner) over which the virtual facets can react to light in strongly different ways.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 4/20/2010 1:29:56 AM
Author: Iiro
Karl K,

Nobody is perfect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLW5jzHsW7c

You did demonstrade you can control the VF''s to certain level under certain conditions.

Why the shape is important?

 

[Serg]

Date: 4/20/2010 2:01:22 AM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 4/20/2010 1:29:56 AM

Author: Iiro


Why the shape is important?

I could show you in about 2 minutes in person but explaining it will take hours.

Different shaped virtual facets react different from each other across a wide range of lighting and tilt in much the same way different sizes do.

One simple demo take a well cut long EC, now tilt it the long way(end to end) and pay attention to how the virtual facets act in the center section, then tilt it from side to side across the narrow way.

Side to side you are tilting narrow virtual facets the other way very wide ones.

The difference in the appearance of the scintillation and fire is very striking.

Which brings up another point, non-round and non-square stones and other not mirrored on all sides designs have 3 distinct plains of motion (end to end, side to side, corner to corner) over which the virtual facets can react to light in strongly different ways.

Karl,
re:One simple demo take a well cut long EC, now tilt it the long way(end to end) and pay attention to how the virtual facets act in the center section, then tilt it from side to side across the narrow way.

Side to side you are tilting narrow virtual facets the other way very wide ones.

---
VF''s shape is not reason. It depends from normals of real facets and direction of tilting
in one your example direction of tilting is orthogonal to plane of facet normals, in other case tilting direction is in this plan.
you can easy check it on simple prism

 

[Iiro]

Karl K,

I see there are long and narrow virtual and real facets, but I cannot see much of fire. Do you say this shape is favorable to fire?
Is the fire strong only when tilting to certain directions.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 4/20/2010 6:31:32 AM
Author: Iiro
Karl K,


I see there are long and narrow virtual and real facets, but I cannot see much of fire. Do you say this shape is favorable to fire?

Is the fire strong only when tilting to certain directions.

In different lighting it will show differences in fire tiling it each way.
The fire will be different shapes and intensity in lighting conductive to fire and in some lighting it will show fire scintillation tilting it one way but not the other.
In lighting not conductive to fire the brilliance scintillation will be different.

 

[Karl_K]

Date: 4/20/2010 3:25:52 AM
Author: Serg


VF''s shape is not reason. It depends from normals of real facets and direction of tilting

in one your example direction of tilting is orthogonal to plane of facet normals, in other case tilting direction is in this plan.

you can easy check it on simple prism

That is part of the reason different virtual facet shapes react differently but not the whole story.
It is also one that can be varied by facet pattern selection when designing diamonds.
For example using a brilliant pavilion instead of a step pavilion gives different scintillation patterns.

Another way of altering the virtual facets size/shape balance is changing table size particularly on step cuts.

 

[Serg]

Date: 4/20/2010 9:40:39 AM
Author: Karl_K

Date: 4/20/2010 3:25:52 AM

Author: Serg



VF''s shape is not reason. It depends from normals of real facets and direction of tilting


in one your example direction of tilting is orthogonal to plane of facet normals, in other case tilting direction is in this plan.


you can easy check it on simple prism

That is part of the reason different virtual facet shapes react differently but not the whole story.

It is also one that can be varied by facet pattern selection when designing diamonds.

For example using a brilliant pavilion instead of a step pavilion gives different scintillation patterns.


Another way of altering the virtual facets size/shape balance is changing table size particularly on step cuts.

Karl,
re:That is part of the reason different virtual facet shapes react differently but not the whole story.
Shape of VF''s could be the consequence , but Shape of VF''s is not reason.