Financial advise ... recut or not ????

[abbott]

I am thinking about having my RB 5.01 diamond recut.. Here are GIA stats..
Depth.. 60.7
Table 61%
Girdle, Medium to thick faceted
Cutlet none
Polish VG
Symmetry Good
Clarity SI1
Color I
Fluoro. None

My question .... Does the table , depth,angles, etc... change according to the weight of the diamond... and still be classified as ideal cut.... In other words are the stats of a 2 caret ideal the same as the stats of a 5 ct ideal.

Question #2... How much caret weight should I sacrifice before I suffer financial lost ... 5ct vs ideal 4 + caret ????

Thanks...... Abbott

 

[valeria101]

This might just be bad timing ... there was another 5 carat around here today & D/SI1 at that !

Don't tell me is still April 1st out there

Assuming this is April 2nd. Five carats is a magic number: unless the stone really barks and was meant by mother nature to be of 4 carats instead of 5, I wouldn't shave it.

Until present, technical standards did not depend on weight (same rules for 0.5 and 5 carats). How much the "ideal" label counts for larger stones is yet another Q. Since AGS relaxed their definition of "ideal" and GIA is just releasing their, maybe you have an "ideal" cut round without knowing. Perhaps the question is worth asking after GIA grades hit the counter. In the meantime... which ideal ?

 

[abbott]

Thanks for the info.... No this isn''t a April fools... I "invested" in the diamond.... for pleasure

about 18 months ago... You can read my thread regarding diamonds and investment..... Anyway... I know it could have a better cut...I talked with a diamond cutter today... He told me that he would analyze my diamond utilizing a digital goldsmith software... and would furnish me with all the stats, angles, facets, etc... ... The unit would analyze the cut of the diamond and would provide the amount of weight the diamond would loose to be cut to "ideal"... If I decided to have the diamond recut... It would be sent to Israel, recut, sent to GIA... and then returned to me... I don''t know if it is worth breaking the Magic #5..............................

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/1/2005 9:47:19 PM
Author: abbott

The unit would analyze the cut of the diamond and would provide the amount of weight the diamond would loose to be cut to ''ideal''...

yeah... it may be worth asking for several versions of recut (from improving the finish grades to changing the proportions to hit some abstract target). Since there is no hard and fast "ideal" standard, this kind of reasoning might make allot of difference.

If by ideal you mean "harts and arrows" - there are degrees of those as well. Slight variations of the pattern exist on a rather wide range of proportions, not just the "old" AGS0.

Just a thought. I am pretty sure whoever the cutter is would probably offer options anyway.

And there is always the possibility that the clarity grade improves and no value is lost after all.

Is Paul doing this recut as well ? Just curious

 

[abbott]

No... I haven''t really committed to a particular diamond cutter.... Just a project I thought would be interesting to research. I am really struggling with the thought of going under 5ct.... for financial reasons. I think I will have the diamond analyzed... and get the full report... does Paul do his own recuts... or does he send the diamonds to Israel??? Abbott

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/1/2005 10:2:36 PM
Author: abbott

...does Paul do his own recuts... or does he send the diamonds to Israel ?

Stephan should know this (since the latest recut). It is not clear from Paul's presentation

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Send it to one of the appraisers with a Sarin scanner and get a 3D scan. We can then model the recut for you very precisely if you email the scan to me at
garry at ideal-scope.com

It may be that the loss in value (below 5ct) might not get a good enough improvement - it is possible for a stone of those table depth to be very well cut. We can tell from the 3D scan and give you gem adviser and ideal-scope results for both.

 

[abbott]

For ideal cut diamonds... Does the table, depth, angles, etc.... vary according to the weight of the diamond... I was concerned that my 5ct... has a 61% table and a jeweler response to me (not the recutter)... on a stone that large.... 61 is good???? I''m confused... I know you have to consider the angles.... but I thought table range was below 60.... 58 or less...for it to be ideal cut ???????????????????? Abbott

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 4/1/2005 11:12:58 PM
Author: abbott
For ideal cut diamonds... Does the table, depth, angles, etc.... vary according to the weight of the diamond... I was concerned that my 5ct... has a 61% table and a jeweler response to me (not the recutter)... on a stone that large.... 61 is good???? I''m confused... I know you have to consider the angles.... but I thought table range was below 60.... 58 or less...for it to be ideal cut ???????????????????? Abbott

I have the Sarin Dia Pro and Dia expert software.

The size is very relevant.

The real issue is how much crown is there? Generally 61% table stones, have somewhat shallow crown heights and to bring the stone to "idea", you have to have more crown ( this of course depends on the crown angle as well).

If the crown is shallow the girdle has to be re-positioned lower on the stone, and that will cause more weight loss in the recutting than if the crown angles are steep and it does have a crown.

I would also suggest that it might be helpful to have a B Scope done on the stone. However there is a size limitation for the B Scope Analyzer too. However, there isn''t a limitation for this size with the B Scope Viewer.

I have done larger stone than 5 carats on the B Scope, so most likely your will be possible to be done.

A lot of the decision is also dependent on the fact that some diamonds will change color grades when recut, or possibly inclusions can be removed as well.

It''s a stone by stone call. Each stone is unique...

Rockdoc

 

[abbott]

"some diamonds will change color grades when recut, or possibly inclusions can be removed as well."................ I can understand that recutting a diamond can remove inclusions... but change the color grade?? For better or for worse???

And now.... my husband is getting involved with this project.... His question is..... Would it be better to recut the 5ct... or sell the five and buy an ideal cut diamond (4ct+)??????????

So... to recut a diamond ... you never know what your going to get???? or do the reports pre-determine the outcome??? color, clarity, etc.....

Thanks!!!! Abbott

 

[denverappraiser]

Abbot,

I agree with the above posters who advised you to talk to a professional. You obviously already know this. There’s a lot of money involved here and an appraisers fees will be paltry in comparison. The issues are complicated and the tools are slightly unusual. Digital Goldsmith, by the way, is a CAD product, not a measuring tool. It won’t do what you describe without data from some other source. DiamondCalc is a better product for this application and since this is primarily a recreational activity in teaching yourself more about diamonds, I would suggest that you start with a copy of that.

What is your objective in this project? If it’s a business venture, you are missing some critical data. What can YOU sell the current stone for? If all goes well, what can YOU sell the resultant stone for? If it’s purely on the money, I think you’ll find that it’s not even going to be close. The cutter chose to cut it this way in the first place after doing a similar analysis. They were in a different situation than you and they may have been better at selling big over excellent than you are so it’s possible that your conclusion will be different from theirs but the question here is primarily about the money, not the optics.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[He Scores]

Abbott,

I could be wrong here, but when it comes to pricing, over 5 cts. begins a whole new world of pricing. I can''t see much reasoning for a lay person to widdle it down to a more ordinary weight. After all, you voiced your concern for the economics of the situation and by doing so you answered you''re own question.

Losing most sizes in favor of cut doesn''t make economical sense. At least that''s been my experience when I quote estimates to the trade, especially if it isn''t a real poor make.






Bill Bray
Diamond cutter.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 4/2/2005 9:22:35 AM
Author: abbott
''some diamonds will change color grades when recut, or possibly inclusions can be removed as well.''................ I can understand that recutting a diamond can remove inclusions... but change the color grade?? For better or for worse???

And now.... my husband is getting involved with this project.... His question is..... Would it be better to recut the 5ct... or sell the five and buy an ideal cut diamond (4ct+)??????????

So... to recut a diamond ... you never know what your going to get???? or do the reports pre-determine the outcome??? color, clarity, etc.....

Thanks!!!! Abbott

Yes a diamond can change either way by recutting it. Color in a diamond is a contaminant, and as these element enter the diamond while crystalling the color can vary throughout different portions of the stone. Each stone in this area is unique.It''s a stone by stone call.

Why?

If the color is concentrated near the girdle, recutting and removing this area can cause the diamond to actually be graded higher. The same happens in reverse if the color is more towards the "core" of the stone. Unlike mixing the batter to evenly distribute the ingredients of a cake don''t come into play. Mother nature doesn''t stir the diamond mixture as it crystallizes.

Colored stones like sapphire and ruby demonstrate this more visually. Cutters try to orient the crystal with the greatest amount of color deep in the stone. This can be seen easily by immersing the stone in distilled water and sometimes with specific gravity liquids. It is very surprising to see the zoning areas of color this way. Native cut stones, with heavy pavilions and shallow crowns can sometimes get ruined when trying to recut them for beauty, and turn colorless.

Predicting this is difficult to do with diamond as the color differences are very succint. But in some cases it is visible.

Neil and He Scores are certainly correct in considering the beauty prediction vs, the financial benefits too. But the highly trained eye is still the best evaluation tool we have. Yes, the machines and technology help but "the eyes still have it" in determining the final assessment.

Rockdoc

 

[rosy]

Abbott, why are you considering the recut? Is the 5 carat diamond not sparkly enough? I would advise you to talk to Eightstar. They do recuts & your results could be a very beautiful Eightstar diamond! Even at 1 carat an Eightstar is beautiful, I can''t even imagine a 4 carat Eightstar would be absolutely stunning!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

aGS new Ideal cut can have proportions with 61% table, 12.4% crown height and 58.8%-61% depth (the variation can come in the girdle). Your stone might already be there

Get us a 3D scan and we can see - maybe it can have some .01ct sym improvements and stay over 5ct.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 4/2/2005 7:58:38 PM
Author: rosy
Abbott, why are you considering the recut? Is the 5 carat diamond not sparkly enough? I would advise you to talk to Eightstar. They do recuts & your results could be a very beautiful Eightstar diamond! Even at 1 carat an Eightstar is beautiful, I can''t even imagine a 4 carat Eightstar would be absolutely stunning!

rosy
do you know how much it would cost cutting a 5 ct into an 8*

 

[Dancing Fire]

Abbott

i had a stone recut,it''s not a 5 ct but,here''s the link

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/from-a-1-47-ct-60-60-stone-to-a-1-15-ct-after-the-recut-by-infinity-diamonds.24501/

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 4/1/2005 10

2:36 PM
Author: abbott
No... I haven''t really committed to a particular diamond cutter.... Just a project I thought would be interesting to research. I am really struggling with the thought of going under 5ct.... for financial reasons. I think I will have the diamond analyzed... and get the full report... does Paul do his own recuts... or does he send the diamonds to Israel??? Abbott

Just to clarify, we cut our own diamonds, and we have absolutely no connection to Israel.

We have in the past performed an odd re-cut for a client, but it is not a line of work, that we push or promote.

As for your question of financial loss, you will start losing as soon as you go under 5Cts, and any re-cut will definitely take you under that weight.

Live long,

 

[rosy]

Date: 4/2/2005 9:27:16 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 4/2/2005 7:58:38 PM
Author: rosy
Abbott, why are you considering the recut? Is the 5 carat diamond not sparkly enough? I would advise you to talk to Eightstar. They do recuts & your results could be a very beautiful Eightstar diamond! Even at 1 carat an Eightstar is beautiful, I can''t even imagine a 4 carat Eightstar would be absolutely stunning!

rosy
do you know how much it would cost cutting a 5 ct into an 8*

Hi,
If I recall correctly the local Eightstar distributor told me it was $2,000.00 a carat. I assumed that was the cost of cutting away 1 carat from the ring, but I could be wrong.
Rosy

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 4/3/2005 4:14:24 PM
Author: rosy

Date: 4/2/2005 9:27:16 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 4/2/2005 7:58:38 PM
Author: rosy
Abbott, why are you considering the recut? Is the 5 carat diamond not sparkly enough? I would advise you to talk to Eightstar. They do recuts & your results could be a very beautiful Eightstar diamond! Even at 1 carat an Eightstar is beautiful, I can''t even imagine a 4 carat Eightstar would be absolutely stunning!

rosy
do you know how much it would cost cutting a 5 ct into an 8*

Hi,
If I recall correctly the local Eightstar distributor told me it was $2,000.00 a carat. I assumed that was the cost of cutting away 1 carat from the ring, but I could be wrong.
Rosy

Rosy
you misunderstood what your 8* dealer meant by $2000 per ct (example; Abbott''s 5ct stone) 5 X $2000 per ct = $10,000 to do an 8* recut. i think there''re 8* dealers out there who''s willing to do it for less.

 

[abbott]

Thanks to everyone for the advise. I have a very beautiful 5ct. and I will give it alot of thought before I shave it down to anything below a 5. I really appreciate all the knowledge that is shared on PS... You guys are great... Thanks again... Abbott

PS.... Being from KY... You know that I''m watching the final four game... UNC vs ILL..... so who will it be??????????????????????????????

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 4/4/2005 10

6:14 PM
Author: abbott
Thanks to everyone for the advise. I have a very beautiful 5ct. and I will give it alot of thought before I shave it down to anything below a 5. I really appreciate all the knowledge that is shared on PS... You guys are great... Thanks again... Abbott

PS.... Being from KY... You know that I''m watching the final four game... UNC vs ILL..... so who will it be??????????????????????????????

Well, I had UNC vs Ill in the family pool w/ UNC winning it. We are rabid NC State fans; but, Carolina has a soft spot for me. Nearly went there (was just too big), my Niece is a graduate, Dean Smith is gone (never liked his arrogance) & my Nephew is currently attending. Well, at this moment he is not - he is on his way back from attending the Final Four - and HIS TEAM WON on his 21st birthday (Saturday) & WON last night on Sean May''s birthday - Sean May could be the next Michel Jordan.

Go Tarheels!!!!

NCAA Champs!

To topic - unless your 5c barks - I wouldn''t recut it. If you are unhappy, trade it for something else.

 

[abbott]

Great game !!! Congrats... Until next season we can keep busy watching the world of diamonds

Abbott