Feminism - Your $.02?

[NoonersMom]

Thought I would start this thread as not to hijack Amma''s Name Change thread. LOL. Here is a paste of BlueRoses comments.....
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"Feminism is the radical notion that women are people"

Remind me to scan in my photos of marching with NOW on Washington in ''95.....Blueroses takes it to the Capitol, yo

What an emotionally charged issue this is! Our generation is still in such flux with reconciling the you-can-do-it-all 80s and our current new-con times!

I think it''s all about each couple''s preference. While I may indeed change my name, one thing worthy of note for me is that I''m VERY adamant about middle names having a family connection, and that at least the first or middle name for each child should be from the mom''s side. (My sister and I each have one of our grandmother''s maiden names as our middle names)...and that''s just MY choice--my way of trying to keep something matrilineal (sp?) going even if I do change my last name.

But I agree with some previous posters. It''s about being John and Mary Smith vs. Mr. and Mrs. John Smith, or worse "the John Smiths"!!!! My bf is a III. I''m not entirely thrilled with the prospect of having the exact same married name as my MIL or her late MIL (bf''s grandmother), with the rare exception of formally addressed wedding invitations!!

Anyway, I''ll shut up now. I guess I''m still on the fence about what I''ll do professionally, but I''m pretty sure I will change it "in life".

eta: I lied about the shutting up Had to add that I disagree re: feminism having nothing to do with the name choice--at least historically and culturally, though perhaps not on an individual level. I mean--a woman''s reasons for changing or not changing her name probably have to do with her personal beliefs about family or her own professional life, and it''s entirely possible that she hasn''t given any big "personal is political" thought to it. But historically, it has everything to do with feminism and the rise of women''s equality--this would not have been much of an issue in the past--it just wouldn''t have happened, because names have been handed down through the father''s line, and not the mother''s. I''m sure a lot of us don''t give it that kind of thought, but consider whether our grandmothers would have been having this conversation.....and what''s happened to women in the world in the intervening 60-80 years since they were married.....it might seem totally unrelated on the surface, but that''s the luxury we have as the recipients of what our moms and grandmother''s and so on fought for! 100 years ago, we couldn''t even VOTE--we forget how quickly our world has changed, and what a priviledge it is for us to even have a choice in this matter!

Ok, I will step off my soapbox--this isn''t really directed at anyone at all, so I hope no offense is taken, I just got off on a tangent. I mean, I was reading "The Feminine Mystique" for pleasure reading in college, so I guess my protesting muscles were a bit rusty Women who choose to take their husband''s name and stay home are making just as valid a choice--my Smith collge alum-fulbright-winning sister is now a stay-at-home-mommy, and i have the utmost respect for her!!! But we have to remember that that choice didn''t use to even exist.

It makes me so sad that there are women at ALL that don''t consider themselves feminist--all that word means is one who believes that women should be treated equally and afforded equal rights. That''s it! I didn''t have to buy combat boots or grow my pits or cut my hair or burn my bra or anything! (Well, I did get the free toaster....)
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Thoughts ladies (and gentlemen)?

 

[onedrop]

Oh Nooners: You''ve opened a can of worms! I have to admit that I don''t label myself as a feminist. BUT I don''t believe in strict gender roles. I DO believe that women in our society deserve equality. I have MANY reasons for not labeling myself a feminist among them being, that in my understanding of feminism men are seen as oppressors. I don''t agree with this. Hence I don''t use the feminist tag.

In this day and time, getting married, changing or not changing names, being stay-at-home Moms are all choices. And that is the benefit of the feminist movement.

 

[jenwill]

I am a proud feminist...and that doesn''t mean that I disparage men, or attend rallies decrying stay at home moms. Blue is right- feminism got a bad rap, but it really means wanting to protect the choices taht women make in their lives, whether to be working mom, stay at homer, take a name, keep a name, dress in pants, not wear a bra, be as girlie as you want to.....just making sure the world recognizes that it is OK to be who you are, not what someone else decides is ''right''. It took on a bad connotation when suffragettes were working to get women the vote, and went from there to 60''s upheaval of what was considered ''correct'' for the little woman to do.

 

[ammayernyc]

I remember being in high school and a teacher asking our class how many people considered themselves feminists and about 5 out of 25 people raised their hands. So, so sad. Feminism has gotten a dirty rap but all that it really means is equality. Not women are better. Not anti-men. It drives me crazy!

I''m a feminist and I still think it''s fine, even great, if women want to stay home with their kids. Or work. Or get a nanny. As long as they are doing what''s right for them, it''s great. I don''t believe that I should pay for all of my bfs meals or open the door for him. In fact, my first date standard is that the man must pay for me and must open the door for me or I will not go out with him again.

We should change the term to ''equalist.'' Maybe then the stigma will leave.

(Okay, one, two, three... jump! Now I''m off my soapbox..)

 

[onedrop]

Ladies: thanks for the clarification of the term. I never really thought about whether I was a feminist or not until very recently. And what I knew of feminism was the radical form. Being a minority I felt as if I had other equality issues to contend with. Even with the clarification, I am still not sure of the label. But again...I appreciate the discourse and the added knowledge.

 

[NoonersMom]

I''m right there with all of you ladies! I believe it is about the opportunity to determine the paths that we would like to take and not what society infers as the "ideal" role. It is interesting though, as I think there is still some ground to be make on the professional front. I think the "good ole boys club" still exists.

Did you see the Oprah episode where she had Gloria & a bunch of other ladies from that era on the show? They were upset as they felt that this generation was taking everything for granted.

 

[blueroses]

Well Nooners pasted my original comments from the other thread so I don''t have much to add!

The word feminism, as Jen and Ammayer have said, has sadly been smeared and taken on so many negative connotations which are inaccurate. People have become afraid of the word and will make qualifying statements such as being a humanist vs. a feminist....but the reality is that anyone (man or woman) who believes in this.....:

feminist
adj : of or relating to or advocating equal rights for women; n : a supporter of feminism [syn: women''s rightist, women''s liberationist, libber]

......is a feminist! It makes me sad that it''s become a bad word--which is why I quoted that jokey line about the radical notion that women are people--but in the true dictionary sense of the word, that is ALL that it means. Period.

Anyhoo, I am a girlygirl AND a feminist AND a diamond-gawker AND politically minded AND cry at Hallmark commercials AND will probably stay at home or wait maybe I won''t.......and none of these things are mutually exclusive!

Sometimes we forget how good we have it in 2005. My mom was offered a teaching job in 1981. She was later called back in and informed that they were sorry, they''d have to renege on the job offer because the other candidate (though far less experienced/less educated) was a MAN with a family to support, and (this is a verbatim quote, when she protested the injustice of this) she was "small potatoes." That is sexual discrimination under the law--morally and ethically wrong. (It worked out....the headmaster got canned and my mom got the job the next year and nothing ever had to go to court.) Bottom line: This would NOT happen--at least not so blatantly--in 2005, it was bad enough, but at least called out in 1981, and would have been NOTHING AT ALL not too long before that! Those are the kinds of things that make me a feminist.

Are some women oppressed by some men? Sure. Are there still obstacles which are somewhat inherent in our system. Yup. Does that make all men potential rapists and oppressors? NO! We are by no means all the way "there"--and may never be--but were it not for the feminist movement--semantic warts and all--none of us would be here, freely reading and typing, literate, and able to agree and disagree about any of this! We''re some lucky women, no matter whether you''re more Hillary or Condi.

Sad that the word is tarnished, but if we''re never going to get it back, maybe we need a new word!!

(Oh, and I had a typo in that post NM quoted: I meant neo-con as in neo-conservative, not new-con. Oops!!)

 

[NoonersMom]

Blue, nice remarks edited to add. I didn''t even think about posting your quote to start a new topic. So sorry!

 

[sparklish]

To me there are many feminisms. Some of them support quite radical views, such as the idea that women should live separately, or that all men are oppressors. But that group is clearly a minority and basically feminism, to most feminists, is all about equal rights. Furthermore, extreme feminism is useful because it gets us thinking and forces us to challenge assumptions we make as a society. Unfortunately we haven''t gotten to equality yet, we are still paid less for what we do on a whole just as one example. And in some countries women very few rights. So we''ve got to keep thinking about it and talking about it because we''re not totally there yet. That''s what feminism means to me, and I am proud to think of myself as one.

 

[allycat0303]

Wow. Hot topic. I''ve never thought much about this, until someone called me a feminist as an undergrad. I thought that was funny, because I really don''t think of myself that way. In any case, I agree with Sparkish in the sense that I feel there are different variations of feminsim. I remember learning about radical views in class, such as a) The belief that every sexual encounter between a man and a woman is rape b) That all language has been used to suppress woman (ex. HERstory instead of HIStory). I would say that I respectfully disagree with those views. Although equal rights for woman, I am all for that. However I don''t agree with statments like: "Oh give her a second chance in the NHL because she is a woman, and she had more pressure then the men" That was something someone said in one of my classes as an example of when a woman was being oppressed. I get really heated over comments like that, because I feel that it calls attention to a woman''s sex and makes it into an issue for special treatment. And that to me isn''t feminism.

 

[onedrop]

BlueRoses: I totally agree with your proposal for a re-wording of the term! And I did find it helpful to know that men can also be considered feminists. Knowing that puts a whole different spin on the term for me. But a new word would *feel* better. Unfortunately...I have no suggestions. The one I like: "womanist" is already in use.

 

[MelissaSue]

Date: 3/16/2005 5:53

3 PM
Author: ammayernyc
I remember being in high school and a teacher asking our class how many people considered themselves feminists and about 5 out of 25 people raised their hands. So, so sad. Feminism has gotten a dirty rap but all that it really means is equality. Not women are better. Not anti-men. It drives me crazy!

I''m a feminist and I still think it''s fine, even great, if women want to stay home with their kids. Or work. Or get a nanny. As long as they are doing what''s right for them, it''s great. I don''t believe that I should pay for all of my bfs meals or open the door for him. In fact, my first date standard is that the man must pay for me and must open the door for me or I will not go out with him again.

We should change the term to ''equalist.'' Maybe then the stigma will leave.

(Okay, one, two, three... jump! Now I''m off my soapbox..)

Amma - I agree with you completely..but there still are quite a FEW women out there who are on the extreme end of feminism. I was in a class with a professor last semester who I would not DARE even mention that I have even considered being a stay at home mom (I honestly WOULD like to be if Its financially possible) in front of. She just thought ti was awful that women would do such a thing.. and she was very adamant about the whole not changing your name thing too.. It made me feel like I was not a "good woman" for wanting these things..

I see things more the way you do.. the equalist point of view.. but the REAL feminists really are still out there!!

 

[Camellia]

I''m a feminist and I''m proud of it! I''m happily married (13 years at the end of this month), haven''t changed my name, have financial independence as well as joint finances, love fashion, makeup and jewellery, but also like politics, philosophy, music and books. I''ll leave it at that for risk of offending other people.

Long live feminism.

 

[blueroses]

But that''s the problem, Melissa......the REAL feminists are actually US! The ones who are living our lives, making choices based on what''s right for ourselves because we believe in our own equality and those of the women around us. People on the EXTREME end of the spectrum comprise a very small (but vocal in the case of your Professor McAngrypants!!) minority, and I''m not sure I''d call their beliefs feminism at all, as they sound based in female superiority, rather than equality!

Perhaps I''m lucky because those female professors I emulated in school--those from whom I took classes like Feminist politics, women writers, Southern Women (a social history seminar--awesome!!), (I took a lot--gender studies concentration)--all seemed to really understand and value the choices and sacrifices we made, and that they''d made before us. Some had changed their names, some hadn''t. Some had kids, some didn''t. One had taken years off to raise her kids and then returned to academia.

I''m so sorry that you had such an intolerant and inflexible professor--she''s the kind of woman that less tolerant types would call a femi-nazi, and that give us all a bad name!!

 

[onedrop]

So in essence what''s necessary is not to change the term feminism but a re-inforced understanding that not all feminists are radicals who are anti-men, who look down on other women who make a choice to be stay-at-home moms for example?

 

[blue_chica]

I''m a feminist and I''m proud of it! I''m happily married (13 years at the end of this month), haven''t changed my name, have financial independence as well as joint finances, love fashion, makeup and jewellery, but also like politics, philosophy, music and books. I''ll leave it at that for risk of offending other people.

Long live feminism.

Hear hear. Sing it sister!

I''m a feminist, and that means I can do anything I want, as long as I am respectful of others and their choices, including the menzes.

I would chime in on this more on any other day, but I am siiiiiiick.

 

[blueroses]

Check this out: Anna Quindlen says it all better than I could. From this week''s Newsweek--GREAT essay!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7168816/site/newsweek/

(And Blue Chica, I know you would be, honey

Feel better!!)

(And OneDrop, YES, that''s exactly what I meant....in an idea world anyway, since words can change irretrievably(e.g. "gay")

 

[KimberJEB]

Melissa, we must have ahd the same professors. I have had two like that. One was Psych of Women...my BF took that class with me, poor boy, lol. We we told to never take a mans name, that she was offended and would fail any male student who opened a door for her (I live in the FREAKING SOUTH!), we had questions on our exams like "from your personal experience what would you tell a female about to go through menstruation for the 1st time?" I''m sorry, from my BF''s personal experience??? Oh, and there are NO differences b/w men and women. Not one.

The next one was worse. THis was a law school class, Women and the Law. As a history major, I thought it would be interesting to see the way laws relating to women had changed through the years, and how they are now. Um, no. We learned all that "HERstory" crap, we were told to suggest new laws to increase equality...the class favorite was to legislate the amount of housework/yardwork that a woman and man should do, and then have inspections BY THE GOVERNMENT to make sure women weren''t bearing the brunt of the load. Are you KIDDING me? If you have THAT big a problem with your marriage, that is what counselling or divorce is for! Um, what else. Men are the cause of all problems - even those women who DONT feel discriminated against, are. Even those women who have equal relationships, don''t. The only reason we want children or marriage is b/c we have been socially programmed. And the best of all...all women are truly lesbians, but we have been forced by men into thinking that we are heterosexual. Yep. Learned that in law school. (there was plenty more, but I figure this post is getting long enough)

Of course I believe in the equality of women. I never haven''t. In my strong, Southern, Conservative family (and I am a Southern Conservative at heart, witha few libertarian views) no one ever questioned that the girls in my family could grow up and be whatever we wanted to be. Of course, no one ever questioned that my grandmother is the real power in my grandparents marriage, despite the fact that she didn''t go to college and has never worked and raised four kids. But let me tell you, if it wasn''t for her - my grandfather would stilll be an auto-mechanic, not a practicing lawyer and former FL Supreme Court Justice.

I want to work, I want to quit to raise my children - b/c i truly believe it is best for a child to have a parent at home...and I want to be that parent. And I want to go back to work after my kids are in school. Now maybe some of that will change down the line when I actually have kids.

And I will take his name. I like the connection that that brings. But I will probably drop my middle names

and make my last name my middle. If for no other reason than it is smart considering my future career in my town (my dad and grandfather are VERY well known lawyers around here).

I will never call myself a feminist. Though I know the real definition, I feel it is a word that has lost all positive meaning. I would be happy to call myself an equalist, though I do try to stay away from being any kind of "ist". And, to be honest, I feel that at this time, at least in my part of the world, women CAN do what they wish to do. Certainly some marriages are...not equal, in any way, offical or not. And there may be some employers who don''t wish to hire women. But that appears to be a scant minority, and so, there are many issues that are of more concern to me than equality. Not b/c it isn''t important, but b/c it is close to being universally recognized.

 

[MissAva]

I got a D

in Women''s Studies I was told I had internalized sexism. What that meant was my favorite singer is Garth Brooks and my hero is my father, my best friend is my bf, and she thought that my favorite author D. Parker was just as bad as I am. She used to rail on about how I had grown up in a confused home, my mother stayed home with us. And told me that my father enslaved my mother with children (four of us girl-24 me-22 tomorrow, boy-12, girl-4). I started off in the class with a base level curiosity but by the end of it I didn’t want to burn my bra but burn the women’s center. Whenever I mentioned the advantages to being a woman, doors opened things paid for she said it was a control issue. When I asked why females in certain professions get promoted faster and make more money she said name one I said being and pilot and was thrown our of class for the day. I asked why the boys don’t get a men’s center is she said I was being deliberately rude. I am not but I don’t want to here about how I need everything handed to me because I have ovaries. I hate that girls sometimes get excused from absentee polices due to menstruation issues or that in the military academies and ROTC programs they can run slower and do less but score higher. Cause if you are at war the bad guys will give you an extra1.15 minutes to run away before they shot you. Sometimes I think what people do hoping to help girls actually makes things harder. I am in college and I plan to get my PhD, when I have a child I will stop working and not go back until the earliest college for my child if ever, unless my husbands dies or something unforeseeable takes place. I am not oppressed I know my own mind. There is a backlash between girl groups because classes like Women’s Studies (Emory) polarize the people in them. And let me say that the males in the class all dropped before the final W date because grades were unfair IMO. PS my quote is Amelia Earhart its not that I don’t like women its just that I don’t see a big difference between the genders unless I want some furniture moved up a flight or two of stairs

. Perhaps I was contrary towards the end of the class but by then I just want to shot her and end my suffering.

 

[KimberJEB]

Matatora - I completely agree with you. I read an article (it was a link from yahoo.com) that discussed how women actually make more money than men in the same fields for the same work, but women tend to choose jobs that are not in the higher paying locations or with tons of hours. NOt a bad thing, but a thing. Anyway, I will try to find the link it was interesting.

Anyway, to me gender has never been an issue. Except when it comes to carrying heavy stuff. I know I can do as much mentally (or more) than most men can. I know that if I so choose I can work and make a ton of money. I am 2 semesters from a law degree, and plan to get at LEAST a MA in Psych in the next few years. But, when I have a family, I will CHOOSE to quit work.

The "Women and whatever" type classes do tend to push people away from "feminism". At least the ones I have taken.

 

[kanne]

I will never call myself a feminist. Though I know the real definition, I feel it is a word that has lost all positive meaning. I would be happy to call myself an equalist, though I do try to stay away from being any kind of "ist". And, to be honest, I feel that at this time, at least in my part of the world, women CAN do what they wish to do.

I have been thinking about this topic since it was posted yestersay. Kimber's very heartfelt and honest post just pushed me over the edge so here I go..

I am a feminist. Feminist is a good and beautiful word...even LOVING. It is a word that has been painfully shredded by the cheese grater of (yes I will say it) male dominated press and politicians. In an attempt to take power from the word, "Feminists" have been branded as UGLY, BITCHY, and LOUD. But really, feminists are not this way. They are you and me...singing-in-the-shower and feeling-good-about-ourselves humans. Somehow (and I think of this like the antique fighting tactics of the British Redcoats) women KEEP FIGHTING the sterotypes. They keep challenging themselves and improving the quality of their lives and the lives of their families. And "ugly, bitchy and loud" women are the reason that, even in the south, as Kimber says.."at least in her part of the world, women CAN do what they want to do."

Change does not just happen on it's own. Once in awhile there are people who are brave enough to say "that's not right". Some people work for change inside the system and some people work better on the outside. There are positive and negative aspects of both. I also had a militant "womyn" prof in college. She was difficult to deal with since her views were very extreme. But I REMEMBER her to this day and she is still making me THINK about the choices I make.

I wear makeup. I love perfume and designer clothes. I'm getting married (in a white dress with a veil) and am even looking forward to taking my FI's last name. I think it's great for women to stay home and raise children. It's also great if men want to stay home and raise kids while women work. We have the CHOICES now to do either. It was not always this way. Choice is a gift that has been given to us by some very fabulous humans.

Right off the top of my head, here's my short list of sheros (could not resist):
Gloria Steinem, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Eleanor Roosevelt, Sally Ride, Amelia Earheart, Emily Dickinson, Eve, Ensler, Maya Angelou, Lucille Ball, Hillary Clinton, Oprah Winfrey, Georgia O'Keefe, Kathy Acker, Louisa May Alcott. More controversial ladies that also spring to mind...well Janis Joplin and Calamity Jane. All women just living their lives in the best way they know how...all the while inspiring change.

Kimber...just so you know, this discourse was not aimed at you in any way. You were just being wonderfully honest and I appreciate and understand your opinions.

 

[ammayernyc]

I grew up with a very strong mother, so if I was ever asked to describe myself in three words, one would always be ''woman''...

I had the complete opposite experience in college. I was a math major and took Women''s Studies 101 (or whatever it was called) to fill a requirement. It completely changed my life. I switched my major after taking that class, not to Women''s Studies... that was not an option. But it became one of my minors (and that wouldn''t have been possible if I stayed a math major). I realized that there was a lot that I didn''t know and so I learned more...

Sure there were people in some of my classes who truly felt that heterosexual sex was rape in all cases. Great, then don''t have it. I ignored comments like that since that isn''t part of what feminism is. People like that are oppressors since they will claim that any way that is not their way is wrong. Think what you want. Judge me if you want. But don''t ever tell me not to do something because you don''t like it.

 

[KimberJEB]

I agree with you, Lovey. I just feel that it is very unlikely to change the negative connotations of the word "feminist" to something positive and loving. To me, the word has not been damaged by male politicians or press (I put little stock in the words of either, regardless of sex), but by the vocal people who call themselves feminists. The radicals, the extremists, the man-haters. They certainly have a right to that viewpoint, of course they do. But I do not share that viewpoint and will not share an "-ist label" with them.

I am grateful to all of the women who came before me who fought in so many ways for the freedoms and rights that I have as a woman, just as I am grateful to the soldiers who have fought throughout the centuries for my rights as an American.

My stepmom grew up in rural South Dakota, the child of very poor parents. She learned to sew so that she could have clothes beyond bare necessities. She was a member of both the Young Republicans and Young Democrats, and was friend with Tom Daschle. She won a scholarship to Georgetown where she was Phi Beta Kappa, then went to Florida Law SChool and was an editor of Law Review. She was offered jobs at presitgious law firms nationwide, and accepted one in Jacksonville. Then she formed her own firm, with another woman. At that time, early 80''s, the Women''s Bar Association was forming, but Lori and her law partner refused to join. They respected their cause and association, but wanted to gain standing not as "Women Lawyers" but as "lawyers". When my stepbrother was born, and his dad was sick with cancer, she quit working, and hasn''t gone back (though she does run in her late husbands stead his real estate investment firm out of her house). However, she is head of more organizations than I can count. She is called upon by mayoral and congress candidates for help and backing (financial, yes, but mostly her word, and her name). She also cooks breakfast for me dad and stepbro every morning. Cooks extravagant meals at night. Mends clothes, and on occasion makes them (though she no longer needs to).

Her former law partner is head of the Chamber of Commerce.

I guess I agree with my stepmom. I would choose to be accepted as a person before being accepted as a woman. Lori worked hard for everything she has in life. She is a brilliant and strong woman, but more than that, a brilliant and strong person. She is feminine and successful in a variety of fields.

To me, Lori is what BlueRoses (or was it Blue Chica) termed an equalist. She does not want higher or equal value as a woman, but as a person. I would be happy with that term, with that label, if it were in existence.

I don''t know if I am making sense, or getting my point across. I just know that to the average person, the word "feminist" is too far gone. Too negative. I don''t believe it can be revived. Regardless of the actual definition, it is a negative word.

Lovey, and others, I do not mean to categorize you with those women I have met who have turned me so far off of the word feminist. (Not the beliefs, the word.) I think that you are reasonable and intelligent women who want only equality, which of course I do as well. But to me, I can not hear the word feminist and not picture Professors Dowd and Simmons ranting in class about the evils of men. I would never tell you not to desribe yourself that way, it is your right, and it may indeed have positive connotations to you and to your friends and neighbors. But I think that in order for women to make further strides in the future (if it is indeed necessary, which I have not seen in my life, but I have certainly been a bit sheltered), it will be difficult to overcome the connotations of that word in the past and present.

 

[CurlyM-C]

I recommend reading the book,"The Meaning of Wife" by Anne Kingston. I''m in the middle of it right now. Extremely thorough and thought provoking.

 

[MissAva]

Oh Lord they really need to take the internet out of our classrooms. There is an msn link about all the new motherhood/wife books beign written very intreasting. If I find the link I will post it. As for all of this I am person i wouldnt use woman to define myself becuase my gender is not who I am. I have been very impressed with what everyone has said on her and havent gone "oh no she is wrong" when reading any of them, though I may disagree with some. Now you''ll have to excuse me my prof is about to walk by to see if I have found an article about breat cancer yet. (I have and its on Avon.com very cool read it if you get a chance)