Female Mccain''s VP pick

[luckystar112]

Hmmm lets see

Palin makes lipstick joke
McCain is old

Obama''s speech contains a pig wearing lipstick comment followed by an old fish comment.
The article says that the crowd gave him a standing ovation, no doubt believing that he was referring to Palin.
Now, the journalist can see that the crowd thought this, but Obama didn''t? Are you saying that he is not as smart as people think? Because if he saw what the journalist saw, then why would he not point out that he did not mean it that way....
Or was that the point? To hide under a veil of innocence and let others come to their own conclusions? Good trick!


Yes, as I stated above, the saying is old. If you do some more googling you would see that McCain has said it, Cheney has said it, and Obama has said it in the past as well. But the placement of it in THIS speech coupled with the "old fish" comment just makes it so blindingly obvious that he was trying to ruffle feathers.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 9/9/2008 10:16:54 PM
Author: MoonWater
IndyGirl, I didn't say the comment wasn't directed at her. I said I don't know why they think he was attempting to call her a pig, i.e. trying to be sexist. I think he used the expression in the way it was meant, and thus it was appropriately applied (even if you think he should have chosen 'better' terms)

Actually, I don't care what Obama calls anyone b/c all candidates exchange barbs, but I thought it was funny that they are trying to cover it up. I didn't think he was trying to be sexist as men are usually referred to as pigs, but I think he was calling her a pig in a backhanded way rather than attacking her politics. I just think all of his comments show his immense fear of losing, which is actually refreshing.

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 9/9/2008 10:26:20 PM
Author: luckystar112
Hmmm lets see

Palin makes lipstick joke
McCain is old

Obama''s speech contains a pig wearing lipstick comment followed by an old fish comment.
The article says that the crowd gave him a standing ovation, no doubt believing that he was referring to Palin.
Now, the journalist can see that the crowd thought this, but Obama didn''t? Are you saying that he is not as smart as people think? Because if he saw what the journalist saw, then why would he not point out that he did not mean it that way....
Or was that the point? To hide under a veil of innocence and let others come to their own conclusions? Good trick!


Yes, as I stated above, the saying is old. If you do some more googling you would see that McCain has said it, Cheney has said it, and Obama has said it in the past as well. But the placement of it in THIS speech coupled with the ''old fish'' comment just makes it so blindingly obvious that he was trying to ruffle feathers.

NOT TRYING TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH MOON.....I know we all need to point that out sometimes. Just had a thought and went with it!

 

[MoonWater]

When McCain used it against Hillary he was trying to ruffle feathers as well. I simply think if you used it against a woman (and this is the same man that made a gross joke about Chelsea''s father being Janet Reno) and was likely perceived as sexist by that woman''s supporters (we are talking about Hillary after all), it doesn''t make much sense to try to pull the sexism card when someone else uses the same phrase to your disadvantage.

 

[stone_seeker]

Date: 9/9/2008 10:26:20 PM
Author: luckystar112
Hmmm lets see


Palin makes lipstick joke

McCain is old


Obama''s speech contains a pig wearing lipstick comment followed by an old fish comment.

The article says that the crowd gave him a standing ovation, no doubt believing that he was referring to Palin.

Now, the journalist can see that the crowd thought this, but Obama didn''t? Are you saying that he is not as smart as people think? Because if he saw what the journalist saw, then why would he not point out that he did not mean it that way....

Or was that the point? To hide under a veil of innocence and let others come to their own conclusions? Good trick!



Yes, as I stated above, the saying is old. If you do some more googling you would see that McCain has said it, Cheney has said it, and Obama has said it in the past as well. But the placement of it in THIS speech coupled with the ''old fish'' comment just makes it so blindingly obvious that he was trying to ruffle feathers.

my mother was a die hard obama fan until tonight as a result of these comments.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 9/9/2008 10:32:37 PM
Author: MoonWater
When McCain used it against Hillary he was trying to ruffle feathers as well. I simply think if you used it against a woman (and this is the same man that made a gross joke about Chelsea's father being Janet Reno) and was likely perceived as sexist by that woman's supporters (we are talking about Hillary after all), it doesn't make much sense to try to pull the sexism card when someone else uses the same phrase to your disadvantage.

I must not be following the story very well because I just took the comment as a general insult than anything having to do with the person's sex. I don't doubt that McCain said it, or anything else, to ruffle feathers, I just said that the scrutiny wasn't as high in those instances probably because the target hadn't spoken of wearing lipstick the previous week. Everything candidates say is aimed to garner attention & "send messages" to voters but also the other candidates as well. Like I said, I just think it's funny they are trying to play it off as totally unrelated to Palin.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 9/9/2008 10:29:15 PM
Author: luckystar112

Date: 9/9/2008 10:26:20 PM

Author: luckystar112

Hmmm lets see


Palin makes lipstick joke

McCain is old


Obama''s speech contains a pig wearing lipstick comment followed by an old fish comment.

The article says that the crowd gave him a standing ovation, no doubt believing that he was referring to Palin.

Now, the journalist can see that the crowd thought this, but Obama didn''t? Are you saying that he is not as smart as people think? Because if he saw what the journalist saw, then why would he not point out that he did not mean it that way....

Or was that the point? To hide under a veil of innocence and let others come to their own conclusions? Good trick!



Yes, as I stated above, the saying is old. If you do some more googling you would see that McCain has said it, Cheney has said it, and Obama has said it in the past as well. But the placement of it in THIS speech coupled with the ''old fish'' comment just makes it so blindingly obvious that he was trying to ruffle feathers.

NOT TRYING TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH MOON.....I know we all need to point that out sometimes. Just had a thought and went with it!

At least you put a question mark at the end!

 

[partgypsy]

OK now I''m really confused. I''ve heard the lipstick on a pig phrase before (it''s a phrase politicians seem to like alot apparently) and if you think that somehow Palin "owns" the word lipstick now...

But the fish statement? How is that possibly offensive or sexist? Does she own the word fish too?

 

[luckystar112]

If you don''t get the correlation by what we''ve written above I''m afraid we can''t help you.

 

[partgypsy]

I''m being honest here. Is fish a sexual term? This will not be the first time I am not hip to some slang.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 9/9/2008 11:27:01 PM
Author: part gypsy
I''m being honest here. Is fish a sexual term? This will not be the first time I am not hip to some slang.

LOL. I''m sorry, I don''t meant to laugh at you. I''m just trying to imagine fish as a sexual term and I can see you (along side me) looking perplexed at the thought.

 

[FrekeChild]

Um. For the pig/lipstick combo, I took it to mean that Palin is the lipstick and the pig is the Republican party/McCain. Or that McCain/Palin are the lipstick and the Republican party is the pig.

I also know of this saying, and I''m only 26. It''s just a metaphor for how you can pretty something up (running a slightly different campaign from his predecessors) but that only the outside has changed--not the inside. Like plastic surgery. Or pigs in lipstick.

Interesting...

And the old fish is just the Republican party/McCain/Bush. However you want to look at it.

 

[diamondfan]

I took it that she was a pig even if she wore lipstick. But I just read it here and did not see it in context.

All politicians make barbs at each other. This is nothing new. It is kind of the nature of the beast in this day and age, dig up dirt, fight a dirty fight, oh and yes, there is an election herein with all sorts of issues too!

 

[miraclesrule]

Anything can be taken out of context to satisfy the needs of the person who needs to justify their often limited and uneducated perceptions and opinions. Americans are really becoming experts at it.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 9/10/2008 1:21:40 AM
Author: miraclesrule
Anything can be taken out of context to satisfy the needs of the person who needs to justify their often limited and uneducated perceptions and opinions. Americans are really becoming experts at it.

You know I

you Miracles, but I don''t consider myself to be uneducated because I take offense to what I perceive to be a sexist comment. It seems people think I''m wrong, and that''s fine. Let''s agree to disagree, but please don''t call me uneducated for not sharing your views.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 9/9/2008 11:27:01 PM
Author: part gypsy
I''m being honest here. Is fish a sexual term? This will not be the first time I am not hip to some slang.

I am going to try to explain this without being vulgar..trying to figure out how..it is sometimes used to refer to a woman''s anatomy''s scent. I am sorry if that offended anyone, don''t know how else to phrase it. I am going to try to get some sleep now. Night!

 

[miraclesrule]

Date: 9/10/2008 1:59:26 AM
Author: SarahLovesJS

Date: 9/10/2008 1:21:40 AM
Author: miraclesrule
Anything can be taken out of context to satisfy the needs of the person who needs to justify their often limited and uneducated perceptions and opinions. Americans are really becoming experts at it.

You know I

you Miracles, but I don't consider myself to be uneducated because I take offense to what I perceive to be a sexist comment. It seems people think I'm wrong, and that's fine. Let's agree to disagree, but please don't call me uneducated for not sharing your views.

I never called you uneducated. If I was going to engage in such a horrible thing, which I would never do, I would quote your text box and call you out specifically. It is these types of automatic assumptions on these threads that really perplex me. So many times, a person hasn't even read each and every post, because franklly, whining and smear isn't something I would normally respond to. My remark was specifically put out there as my opinion on the never ending speculation that more is being read into things out of context in order to support a view. If that resonated with you for some reason, it certainly says more about how you were perceiving it than my post. I never even thought of you as I wrote that. What made you think I did?

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 9/9/2008 11:37:06 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Um. For the pig/lipstick combo, I took it to mean that Palin is the lipstick and the pig is the Republican party/McCain. Or that McCain/Palin are the lipstick and the Republican party is the pig.


I also know of this saying, and I''m only 26. It''s just a metaphor for how you can pretty something up (running a slightly different campaign from his predecessors) but that only the outside has changed--not the inside. Like plastic surgery. Or pigs in lipstick.


Interesting...


And the old fish is just the Republican party/McCain/Bush. However you want to look at it.

That''s what I thought too which is why I thought use of the expression made sense. Especially when you read the line he said right before it (which I noticed most news outlets cut). The whole "change" theme started when he brought on Palin.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 9/10/2008 2:00:37 AM
Author: SarahLovesJS

Date: 9/9/2008 11:27:01 PM

Author: part gypsy

I''m being honest here. Is fish a sexual term? This will not be the first time I am not hip to some slang.

I am going to try to explain this without being vulgar..trying to figure out how..it is sometimes used to refer to a woman''s anatomy''s scent. I am sorry if that offended anyone, don''t know how else to phrase it. I am going to try to get some sleep now. Night!

Eww gross yuk! I haven''t had breakfast yet, now I don''t want any.

 

[diamondfan]

I do no think the fish remark was sexist.

It meant that the Republican party is like an old piece of fish and you can wrap it in fresh paper (electing McCain) but it will still stink as it is more of the same (i.e. the same smelly fish just in new paper, the same mind set just a new person).

At least that is how I took it.

The lipstick comment is similar. The pig (Republicans) are still pigs, putting lipstick on it (McCain and Palin) does not change that.

 

[swimmer]

Diamond Fan, as usual makes total sense.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 9/10/2008 7:27:19 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 9/10/2008 2:00:37 AM

Author: SarahLovesJS

Date: 9/9/2008 11:27:01 PM


Author: part gypsy


I'm being honest here. Is fish a sexual term? This will not be the first time I am not hip to some slang.

I am going to try to explain this without being vulgar..trying to figure out how..it is sometimes used to refer to a woman's anatomy's scent. I am sorry if that offended anyone, don't know how else to phrase it. I am going to try to get some sleep now. Night!

Eww gross yuk! I haven't had breakfast yet, now I don't want any.

Sorry Moon, someone asked..I answered because it looked like no one else was going to. I'm eating my breakfast right now.

Dfan and (Freke I believe?) after talking to FI last night I agree with you about the fish comment. I believe I was excluding the word "old" in my mind which completely changes the sentence and it was more likely than not directed at McCain/the Republican Party and not Palin. So I'm no longer as appalled about that, but I do still think it was a horrible choice of words especially following the lipstick comment which did sound sexist for me and primed me for sexism..so immediately the fish comment stung me. But hey, that's just me. Anyway, I am not 100% sure about the sexism of the pig comment..but it seems likely to me or it is at least how I feel. Guess we'll all have to agree to disagree.

ETA: Looks like McCain made an ad about this, that seems kind of dangerous to me.

Obama is also going to respond to this in a bit, so we'll see what he has to say.

 

[MoonWater]

It''s ok SL, I''m a pig (er pun intended?) so I had no problem eating breakfast once I got into the office.

I can''t believe the McCain campaign is making an ad off of this. They really want to go with this sexism angle.

http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/09/10/pigs-and-lipstick-the-campaign-gets-really-weird/

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 9/10/2008 9:30:43 AM
Author: MoonWater
It''s ok SL, I''m a pig (er pun intended?) so I had no problem eating breakfast once I got into the office.


I can''t believe the McCain campaign is making an ad off of this. They really want to go with this sexism angle.


http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/09/10/pigs-and-lipstick-the-campaign-gets-really-weird/

Yeah I saw it on the news this morning. The comment irks me..but I am not sure it should have an ad made out of it since I am not 100% sure he meant it that way. It was definitely a poor choice of words on his part though.

Oh well, I guess it''s being used like the McCain houses gaff, it''ll most likely blow over in a few days. Can''t wait to hear Obama respond..ahh where is he! I have to leave for class soon! So tired, sigh.

 

[MoonWater]

This link was inside the one I just posted but just in case people don't feel like click after click after click, I'll put an excerpt:

Everyone says it

In fact, you can Google it. Exhibit number one comes from Vice President Dick Cheney four years ago - also on the campaign trail.

”As we say in Wyoming, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig,” quipped Vice President Dick Cheney in a stump speech yesterday, with reference to John Kerry’s claims he would be a credible war president.

Exhibit number two comes special delivery from the Obama campaign pointing out that Senator McCain himself used this phrase almost a year ago describing Hillary Clinton’s health care plan.

“I think they put some lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig,” he said of her proposal.

And exhibit number three comes from the always-reliable Marc Ambinder over at The Atlantic. Obama has used this phrase before as well.

‘I think that both General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker are capable people who have been given an impossible assignment,’ Sen. Barack Obama said yesterday in a telephone interview. ‘George Bush has given a mission to General Petraeus, and he has done his best to try to figure out how to put lipstick on a pig.

It’s unlikely that “lipstick-pig-gate” will get much traction (although it would be fun to continue to say lipstick-pig-gate), but the battle over who is the true “agent-of-change” will undoubtedly continue.

I think McCain should let this one go, surely he can attack Obama on stronger issues.

 

[purrfectpear]

I work in an industry where everything is an acronym or a saying. We "think outside the box", "run things up the flagpole and see who salutes", and "mud wrestle with pigs".

We''ve been known to "put lipstick on a pig" from time to time also. None of it is sexist.

Is it soooo hard to believe that politicians have ALWAYS insulted each other and the fact that one of them is now a woman does not mean that every single insult is about her?
Good grief already.

This gender card waving is getting ridiculous. It''s politics as usual folks. Mud will be slung.

 

[etienneperret]

Great soccer / hockey mom. Would I want her to wake up in the middle of the night in charge of the worlds largest military? You have got to be kidding! Let''s get real, education does still count for something in today''s world.

 

[diamondfan]

I think it is silly but am not surprised, it is dirty pool right now.

To me, the remark was not meant to be sexist, it is simply another way of saying, in a colloquial way, that the Bush administration is stinky fish and McCain is not going to unstink Washington.

Same with the lipstick remark, it is saying, the product (Republicans in Washington, their views, their policies) are still the same pig, even if you re package it. Even if you pretty it up it is still a pig.

You could also use "trying to make a silk purse (change, new views, progress) out of a sow''s ear (current administration).

All these sayings are about you cannot turn bad into good, rhetoric demands coming up with a new way to say the same thing.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

I agree in that I see this one not helping McCain if he tries to push it too far. He should just drop it now and move on.

It doesn''t really matter how I feel about the comment..because objectively viewed McCain made the same comment about something different and that is not going to help him.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 9/10/2008 9:44:59 AM
Author: etienneperret
Great soccer / hockey mom. Would I want her to wake up in the middle of the night in charge of the worlds largest military? You have got to be kidding! Let's get real, education does still count for something in today's world.

I've been hearing this education argument a lot recently. What's her education background? I haven't seen any article mention it thus far.