FAO: Karl K / Yoram - can we design a good classic EC??

[OoohShiny]

So, I'm not sure if this has been posted before, or even if I am allowed to post it but I'm prompted to do so by my current idle searching for a decent EC and my reading up on the subject.


Gypsy has posted a load of helpful threads which I'm reading through (at work, trying to look busy lol) but it does seem that pretty much all ECs are less than 100% perfect, with varying degrees of obstruction, P3 issues, tilt-windowing, and life-less facets in general.

We've seen evidenced through Karl's excellent work designing the Octavia and Yoram/Diagem's skilled cutting of them, that as Yoram has asserted (if I've read things correctly...), a new model of diamond cutting (with desired performance outcomes leading the designing and cutting process, rather than weight-retention and profit margins) can realise stunning results

My question, therefore, is whether we as a forum could design a truly high performing classic EC - it must be possible, surely?!


I welcome everyone's thoughts!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Jonathan is always working on designing better cut stones. You probably should contact him as I know he is working on a couple of things now. The downside is that there is a price premium to specialty cuts. It's a shame that more cutters aren't making an effort to cut well cut fancy shapes.

 

[Karl_K]

I have looked into it a few times and the numbers just aren't there to make it viable financially and there are huge issues getting suitable rough. Every time you change the l/w ratio the angles change for optimal results and consistently finding rough to cut one ratio is not viable.

 

[OoohShiny]

Jonathan is always working on designing better cut stones. You probably should contact him as I know he is working on a couple of things now. The downside is that there is a price premium to specialty cuts. It's a shame that more cutters aren't making an effort to cut well cut fancy shapes.

Ah yes, I hadn't thought of that! I'm looking forward to what they bring forward in the future, I've been very impressed with their new cuts so far

I have looked into it a few times and the numbers just aren't there to make it viable financially and there are huge issues getting suitable rough. Every time you change the l/w ratio the angles change for optimal results and consistently finding rough to cut one ratio is not viable.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Karl I see that nothing is ever simple! lol

Looks like I will either need to make some more money so I can buy the Octavia that I want or continue the hunt with everyone else for the elusive good ones!


Ah well, I'm glad I've asked the question - every day is a school day on here!

 

[valeria101]

Would certainly not mind a great deal of variety in shape - as long as there is Light

[note to self]

 

[mochiko42]

I love antique ECs yet also want precision cutting. In my ideal scenario, there would be AVR, AVC and AVEC

 

[Rockdiamond]

I am constantly working with Yoram to bring new stones to market. The main sticking point is always the rough.
It's far more difficult today than ever before. And I am generally looking for cape rough- traditionally a bit easier than high white material.
I can also tell you that Yoram has many drop dead gorgeous emerald cut designs right now.
It's all a matter of money. And quite a bit of it

 

[LawmaLlama]

+1 for an AVEC. I'd have to seriously consider trading in my AVRs for an AVEC upgrade.

 

[valeria101]

The main sticking point is always the rough.

You'd be selling those like research sells: can't tell what you will get, the price is a start & deadline in a few years, give or take ...

[attempted humour]

 

[diagem]

I have looked into it a few times and the numbers just aren't there to make it viable financially and there are huge issues getting suitable rough. Every time you change the l/w ratio the angles change for optimal results and consistently finding rough to cut one ratio is not viable.

R&D is a super costly process in the world of fancy cuts with step Cuts at the helm. Current & major technological tools are still set up mainly to service round brilliants, laboratories are also stuck at the mainstream that light only shines from above.
Octavia as you all witnessed started as a technological curiosity but needed to move into the real practical world in order to be physically born. It took a few years to physically perfect the cut as much as possible only to then be compared in value to (generic) super ideal rounds.
We as industry professionals were and are still failing to market such speciality cuts for their own merits.

 

[valeria101]

... still failing to market such speciality cuts for their own merits.

Except the old, crooked stones - where consistency is not there nor sought (as if Jazz).

 

[diagem]

Except the old, crooked stones - where consistency is not there nor sought (as if Jazz).

True, that's where personal taste still matters most even though preferably acquired.

 

[Serg]

So, I'm not sure if this has been posted before, or even if I am allowed to post it but I'm prompted to do so by my current idle searching for a decent EC and my reading up on the subject.


Gypsy has posted a load of helpful threads which I'm reading through (at work, trying to look busy lol) but it does seem that pretty much all ECs are less than 100% perfect, with varying degrees of obstruction, P3 issues, tilt-windowing, and life-less facets in general.

We've seen evidenced through Karl's excellent work designing the Octavia and Yoram/Diagem's skilled cutting of them, that as Yoram has asserted (if I've read things correctly...), a new model of diamond cutting (with desired performance outcomes leading the designing and cutting process, rather than weight-retention and profit margins) can realise stunning results

My question, therefore, is whether we as a forum could design a truly high performing classic EC - it must be possible, surely?!


I welcome everyone's thoughts!

if you need a round cut design with big VC, please check
https://cutwise.com/diamond/6_MSSRBC16?format=video8Office

The design are free.

 

[WinkHPD]

I have been selling diamonds since 1975. In all of those years I have seen only three emerald cuts that I would love to have kept for my own. I paid a premium for all three of them and sold them all very quickly.

One was back in the very beginning of the Internet days and my client's soon-to-be fiance lived in Boise and wanted the incredible emerald cut that I had found for her. It was so stunning that once I saw it, I bought it.

She went back to visit him on the East Coast and when she came back she said he wanted to see the GIA report on it prior to buying it. I knew that would not end well. I faxed the report to him. (You younger readers can google faxing, it was an early technological crawl on the way to scanning.)

Sure enough, a few days later he called to tell me that he had found a similarly sized diamond for $7,200 instead of the slightly over $10,000 that I was asking. I had actually paid more than the $7,200 his "friend in the business" had found for him. I knew exactly how my client's fiance would react to receiving such drek.

"Well, congratulations!" I said with heavy sarcasm in my voice.

"What do you mean?"

"Every time your fiance sees this diamond, her face flushes, her breath catches and her eyes sparkle. So, to save a few dollars you are going to give her a diamond that will leave her walking around the rest of her life going, 'Gee, this is all I am worth.' "

He bought the diamond and I set it and sent it out to him.

He called me a few days after he got the diamond and told me how he had been kicking himself all over the place for falling for my BS. Then he got the diamond and went shopping all over New York City.

Nothing even came close. He took her into a wooded area near his home, sat her on a freshly cut stump and formally proposed. He laughed and told me that as she looked at the diamond, her face flushed, her breath caught and tears ran freely down her face as she jumped up to hug him and accept his proposal.

He then had a slab cut off of the stump and had it polished into a coffee table for the home they were building.

I share this story to lament the truth to what Karl, Rock and Yoram are saying. It costs more to acquire the rough and cut it for beauty when someone who will cut it for size and weight can pay more for the rough and prostitute the cut, selling the poorly cut but larger diamond for more than an artful cutter can sell the smaller, more beautiful diamond for. The smaller, more beautiful diamond is a MUCH better value, but is rarely seen due to it being impossible to acquire the rough at a reasonable price.

I wish it weren't so.

Wink

 

[valeria101]

True, that's where personal taste still matters most even though preferably acquired.

You tell me if it is worth thinking about defining a series of cut models expressing such a range of taste, rather than a precise template.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Here's one part of the difficulty- not anyone can cut an Octavia- or other special cuts. You need a specialist. Of course labor costs are higher- but on large stones the cost of labor is amortized by a higher cost of finished diamond. The cost of labor on a .50ct is pretty much the same as on a larger stone- meaning the price of a .50ct Octavia would be exorbitant.
I always felt that in marketing a new cut offering a wide variety of prices is crucial.
Thoughts from you guys?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Wink
I'd love to invite you up to NYC soon to see some emerald cuts. For sure a consumer walking around 47th st is likely to see drek ( poop)
But if you were to know the right cutters? There's some amazing emerald cuts to be found in NYC cutters.
No one is quite like Yoram- he's one in a million. But there are indeed others cutting some amazing step cuts.

 

[WinkHPD]

I appreciate the invitation, but as you know, I now only sell the round brilliants of a cutter who I shall not name out of respect for forum policies.

As for pricing. In the early days that unnamed cutter tried to source his rough in Canada whenever possible for those who said they wanted conflict free. Canada had a fee for exporting uncut goods of x%, I think it was 5% but I may be in error. He finally had to give up on his Canada initiative as people say they want Canadian diamonds, but were in fact, mostly unwilling to pay for them.

As Yoram correctly states, R&D with diamonds is incredibly expensive. It is very easy to spend more than you can ever recover.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

P.S. Just to be sure, that cutter is a strong advocate of the Kimberley Accords and goes to extra precautions to be sure his starting crystals are from Conflict Free sources. I think you will find that to be true with most diamond dealers.

 

[partgypsy]

There has been a couple times that I have seen emerald cut diamonds posted here or elsewhere that caught my breath. One was a 3 stone emerald cut ring by Kwiat, the center stone... But it's not something common.

 

[diagem]

You tell me if it is worth thinking about defining a series of cut models expressing such a range of taste, rather than a precise template.

It would be practically impossible to satisfy that range of taste...
We should leave the crooked ones to the ones who appreciate beautiful old stuff...

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I have to say, I am most fortunate to have two diamonds cut by Yoram and a third that is a beautifully cut antique, slightly rectangular asscher. I am willing to pay for stones that are exceptional, but my budget limits me only in terms of size, not in quality!

If someone wants an antique style emerald/asscher cut that is absolutely gorgeous, you need to see the ones Yoram (diagem) cuts. Check out his website and Instagram. That's what I'd want if I didn't already have an antique one.

 

[valeria101]

It would be practically impossible to satisfy that range of taste...
We should leave the crooked ones to the ones who appreciate beautiful old stuff...

I wasn't thinking of the crooked, but of a certain question that always comes to mind seeing each neat round: what could have become of that crystal, with the least loss and least constraints to the cut model..

I imagine that what I am asking is possible software-wise (humour intended); then again ... the arrays of small diamonds in old jewels, tell of a different heuristic of adjustments that seems to have fit that taste for beautiful surprises only too well.

 

[OoohShiny]

I love @Wink's stories but as an indicator of rarity and the impossible task we consumers face when shopping, I find it terribly sad/depressing that in 40+ years, only a few ECs that were cut really well came across his table. What hope do us mere mortals have?!


Cognisant of the fact we can't discuss them in detail in this part of the forum, are MMDs / Lab-grown diamonds a potential solution to the problem of mined rough selling for end-product size rather than end-product beauty?

If it is, what, 30% cheaper? to buy equivalent-sized grown rough than mined rough (someone in the know would need to confirm that figure!) then would that 30% (or whatever figure it is) enable R&D to take place, as well as end products to be created for beauty, which could be sold near to or at the same price as a similar specification (but less beautiful) stone cut from mined rough?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

MMD would have to go down in price much further to seriously compete with natural, IMO. No, I would not pay close to generic natural diamond prices for a better cut MMD, personally. When the prices of MMD get to be half (or less)of natural diamonds, then I think there is some possibility of them competing.

 

[LLJsmom]

I just looked at Yoram's website and I see an emerald cut. I don't ever see people discuss this here. Are these even available? Would this be close to an ideal?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I just looked at Yoram's website and I see an emerald cut. I don't ever see people discuss this here. Are these even available? Would this be close to an ideal?

Everything he cuts is beautiful. I think at this time you have to go through a vendor to source his stones. Caysie van Bebber recently got a stone for me from Yoram. I used her since she'd be making the setting.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I Would this be close to an ideal?

Hi LL!
I agree with DS- everything Yoram cuts is special. But the term "Ideal" can't currently be accurately applied to anything other than a round if we're using gemolocol phrasing.
Not surprising you ask because a lot of sellers claim to have ideal fancy shapes- but it's a misleading use of the term especially when sellers use it incorrectly.

 

[OoohShiny]

MMD would have to go down in price much further to seriously compete with natural, IMO. No, I would not pay close to generic natural diamond prices for a better cut MMD, personally. When the prices of MMD get to be half (or less)of natural diamonds, then I think there is some possibility of them competing.

MMDs / pricing / perception is a whole other discussion which happens to be touched on over in Hangout

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-dont-get-it-lab-grown-diamonds.231997/

 

[OoohShiny]

if you need a round cut design with big VC, please check
https://cutwise.com/diamond/6_MSSRBC16?format=video8Office

Hey Serg, thank you for posting this link, it's really interesting!

I am not familiar with the site - is it your site? It is the first site I've seen that lists Rough!