shape
carat
color
clarity

Fake? Fracture filled? Both?

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,710
You were right :) I definitely thought it was going to come back as something fake. The other jewelry we found was such a mixed bag, I thought there wasn’t any way this was real.

Is the origin very important? It cost extra I think and I also thought was a minor detail (especially for something I assumed was essentially worthless). Now that I know it’s worth my time, should I have the stone unset and get a more detailed report?

‘’you’re right, the cut is very unusual and not even close to symmetric. Do these things tend to do better as completed jewelry or as loose stones?

I think having the stone unset and sending it back to GIA for a retest would be a good idea. Having the actual carat weight and the origin would certainly make any appraisal much more accurate.
 

airplay355

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
286
You guys are the best! Ok, I’ll get it unset and get the loose stone certified with an accurate weight. Should I still go to GIA or look for other labs that are just as reputable but give a more detailed report?
 

airplay355

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
286
Would AGL be better for this kind of stone? They’re just as easy to get to as GIA since I’m in NYC.
 

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,710
I believe AGL are the most respected lab for colored stones. Their cert also includes a diagram showing the cut dimensions of the stone. This might be useful given the unusual shape of your sapphire.
 

airplay355

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
286
I was offered $3500 for it by a buyer in the diamond district. I turned it down. I’m thinking about maybe having it recut and making something more wearable. Thoughts?

3A8921D1-BE2D-48EF-812D-929B3D8A8D27.jpeg C27D9141-5952-4B1F-A670-52983FEEBAF1.jpeg
 

Mrs_Strizzle

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 14, 2018
Messages
1,119
I was offered $3500 for it by a buyer in the diamond district. I turned it down. I’m thinking about maybe having it recut and making something more wearable. Thoughts?

3A8921D1-BE2D-48EF-812D-929B3D8A8D27.jpeg C27D9141-5952-4B1F-A670-52983FEEBAF1.jpeg

My opinion on a recut-

I personally would ONLY consider it if a reputable lap told me that a recut would significantly lighten the stone while facing up, which I seriously doubt would happen. Losing the carat weight wouldn't be worth it to me, as because of it's wonkiness I would assume it would take a lot to even out. Understand that this is coming from someone who never has minded and actually often prefers native cut colored gems.
 

Rfisher

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
4,087
Let’s play pretend.
If you do get it recut - what’s the end goal?
to wear or sell?
If it goes down to an 8x10 oval or pear, will the culet/keel be centered or will it have to go even smaller face up for that?
Will you compromise face up size for a off center culet/keel? Can they have a plan to eliminate or prevent half half extinction in an elongated cut?
Will the recut focus on light return or color retention? Losing belly weight might very well change the color and not necessarily just lighten it - it may desaturate to more of a grayish blue? That’s not going to ‘help’ the ‘value’, neither will a recut if what you are left with centers on the cloudy areas you’ve mentioned.
you’ve got the cutters evaluation to pay for - possible multiple if you are specific on light return cut vs color retention. Shipping and insurance (and insure for what?) back and forth that goes with it.
the actual recut and another lab report if you wish.
and most likely a custom setting if it’s not recut into a calibrated size.


did you ever contact Lang’s with your GIA report info to see what they’d offer?

im all for heirloom pieces - as I’ll never have any. Recutting it into something you can easily find a lookalike in BrilliantEarths inventory, leaves me cold.
Research before and after recuts on colored stones, here and elsewhere.
you /your family being happy with the outcome and being aware of all possible outcomes is the most important part.

can and will you indulge me with a photo of it on the back of your hand, outside on a sunny day, but not direct sun lighting? Have it be in indirect sun lighting? Just trying to see color in different lighting sources, as I don’t think any of your previous photos are natural light that possibly shows it at its best?
 
Last edited:

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,710
Your recent photos seem to show the back side of the sapphire, and it looks very much like a trillion shape. That's a totally different shape from your first photo showing the front side of the stone in its setting.

Don't be impatient, take this one step at a time!

AGL report first.

3D dimensional drawing second.

Get multiple opinions from the jewelry experts at places like Sotheby's and Christie's as to whether a recut or a better setting would do most to increase value.

Given you know absolutely nothing about recutting gemstones there is a lot of risk for you in any recut.

The stone may be worth more to a dealer in sapphire who will have the expertise to do this right.

Let me say this a second time; "Don't be impatient, take this one step at a time!" :mrgreen2:
 

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
2,784
Omg $3500, just give that amount to your mom, keep the thing and wear it or sell it for the “real” amount!
 

airplay355

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
286
Seems like the consensus is don’t try to recut it. I trust all of you more than anyone else so I’m going to listen and leave it be. I’ll drop it off at AGL. The last person that saw it insisted it was so poorly cut, the only way to make it worth much would be to recut it, hence the offer of $3500. I haven’t contacted Lang yet. Does anyone have any idea what a fair price would be? It’s so hard to get consistent opinions. So far one appraiser has said it was synthetic and not worth much. Another has said it needed a complete recut. What am I going to hear next? I think after getting an AGL report I’ll have the setting fixed and leave it as a pendant. Then worry about keeping or selling it later, once it’s a complete wearable piece.

The current cut is similar to a pear of the point we’re ground flat and the bottom wasn’t rounded. It’s thicker at the wider end and as the face tapers, the belly gets more shallow.

I added more pics and videos here.


48257AD4-77A9-4130-8A57-2945F3455EA1.jpeg
 

Rfisher

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
4,087
Seems like the consensus is don’t try to recut it.
I wouldn’t say that. its just something to not take lightly and it’s pretty complicated with no guaranteed result. If the stone shatters, you are out everything and I think you’d still have to pay the cutter for their time?.

So far one appraiser has said it was synthetic and not worth much.
Have you thought about contacting this person back and giving them the GIA report? I would, especially if you paid them for the first visit. Ask if they would like to re-visit The topic. Give them a chance to learn, too.

8BA70DEA-F629-4E3C-9F1F-EB699E515A6C.jpeg
I think if we can be playing pretend, even if this in the red area is what you end up with after a recut, it’s going to be really really hard asking someone/an appraiser to estimate what it‘s market price is. The recut may not end up having the same color hue/tone/saturation at all.
 

VividRed

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Messages
368
Do your homework: AGL Prestige grading report. All other reports (GIA, GRS, AIGS, Gübelin, you name it ) or “appraisers” are not
worth much in terms of indicating the quality of your stone
 

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,710
Woo looks like that report is $770. Worth it?

Yes, it does look like your stone has flashes of terrific color. It may or may not be a very valuable sapphire. The better the information you get at this stage of the game, the better you'll be able to make an informed decision moving forward.

If AGL confirm you have a stone with great color potential, the next step might be to figure out how best to unlock that color, preferably without losing any face-up size. To do that you'll need a full 3D dimensional scan.

I have no personal experience with AGL but I've heard they can be very helpful. If you play this right, you might be able to get some free advice from their world class sapphire experts.
 
Last edited:

Bron357

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
5,799
Late coming back to the Party.
yay, huge congrats it’s natural and unheated.
My advice DONT RECUT.
Sapphires aren’t expected to be precision cut like diamonds. They don’t need or use light the same way.
What matters is treatment status - tick, size - tick and interesting cut - tick.
Sapphires are also dichroic, this means depending on gem orientation the colour can be true blue or purple blue. sapphires are also often “banded” that just different concentrations of colour as the sapphire forms. A recut could change the light optics and that could be bad.
Recutting the sapphire will make it smaller, the improvement in light performance (fingers crossed) is unlikely to increase its value (after cutting costs). Furthermore it then joins a plethora of other “smaller sized” sapphire out there with a “normal” aka uninspiring shape so selling becomes harder.
To me the money is in the ring set with the sapphire.
Get it a proper lab report and then reset it.
Its a vintage/ antique ring and quite unusual. Fortunately people who like unusual also have deep pockets.
 

Austina

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Messages
6,085
Just wanted to say that I have a 8 x 10mm oval hot pink, natural, untreated sapphire, that I had appraised on Wednesday. The (GIA) appraiser said that he estimated the weight at somewhere around 4.26 cts (when I bought it, it was sold to me as 4.56 cts), but as it’s mounted in a ring, he couldn’t be absolutely certain. So, if you did opt for a recut, you could be losing a substantial amount weight.

FWIW, I think it’s absolutely lovely just the way it is, and I also wouldn’t sell it for the price you were offered.
 

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,710
Late coming back to the Party.
yay, huge congrats it’s natural and unheated.
My advice DONT RECUT.
Sapphires aren’t expected to be precision cut like diamonds. They don’t need or use light the same way.
What matters is treatment status - tick, size - tick and interesting cut - tick.
Sapphires are also dichroic, this means depending on gem orientation the colour can be true blue or purple blue. sapphires are also often “banded” that just different concentrations of colour as the sapphire forms. A recut could change the light optics and that could be bad.
Recutting the sapphire will make it smaller, the improvement in light performance (fingers crossed) is unlikely to increase its value (after cutting costs). Furthermore it then joins a plethora of other “smaller sized” sapphire out there with a “normal” aka uninspiring shape so selling becomes harder.
To me the money is in the ring set with the sapphire.
Get it a proper lab report and then reset it.
Its a vintage/ antique ring and quite unusual. Fortunately people who like unusual also have deep pockets.

Everything Bron says is correct, except she didn't include the most important tick...color. Depending upon primarily color, followed by origin, and treatment a 5ct sapphire could fetch $5K or $100K. Even an unheated Kashmir sapphire isn't going to fetch much if it's black.

The OP's photos have varied in color depending upon how bright the light. This is a screenshot from one of the videos

Screenshot (658).png

This is not the color of an extremely valuable sapphire, it's just too dark. However, it does look like there might be gorgeous color locked up inside the stone. I also agree with Bron there is nothing wrong with the shape of this stone, it's beautiful in its own right.

The photos of the pavilion of the sapphire look far from optimum. Can the brightness and the value of this sapphire be improved with some work on the pavilion only? I don't know, but if it were my stone I might want to find out, just so I'd know what potential value the stone might have in the right hands.
 

airplay355

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
286
Dark indoor lighting definitely doesn’t help brighten the stone. That video is at night with overhead living room lights on. It’s so thick it really looks best in bright light and mostly when the bright light enters directly from the top of the flattish table and lopsided pavilion. Another issue is the iPhone camera. It’s not great at picking up the colors and it’s usually hard to get the video to accurately represent what it looks like to my eye. Even the pictures today are from largely indirect Manhattan low winter sun.

I’ll head to AGL Wednesday and see what they say. I guess if it’s $770, that’s just the cost of doing business and hopefully I’ll make that back later. At GIA I didn’t get to talk to anyone from the lab but you think I’d be able to get advice from someone at AGL? Anything specific I should make sure to ask Aside from asking about a recut?
 

airplay355

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
286
You can also tell how the lighting is poor because that blanket is completely white but looks yellow in the video.
 

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,710
Dark indoor lighting definitely doesn’t help brighten the stone. That video is at night with overhead living room lights on. It’s so thick it really looks best in bright light and mostly when the bright light enters directly from the top of the flattish table and lopsided pavilion. Another issue is the iPhone camera. It’s not great at picking up the colors and it’s usually hard to get the video to accurately represent what it looks like to my eye. Even the pictures today are from largely indirect Manhattan low winter sun.

I’ll head to AGL Wednesday and see what they say. I guess if it’s $770, that’s just the cost of doing business and hopefully I’ll make that back later. At GIA I didn’t get to talk to anyone from the lab but you think I’d be able to get advice from someone at AGL? Anything specific I should make sure to ask Aside from asking about a recut?

AGL have the Prestige Origin report and the Prestige Grading report. The Grading report is the most expensive and gives you your color grading. This would only be worth it if the color is good and their color grade on your report would enhance its value. Obviously, a poor color grade on your report would not be a good thing. :eek-2:

You might be able to get a conversation going by asking them which report would be best for your particular stone.
 

lilmosun

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 30, 2014
Messages
2,078
You need a skilled lapidary to look at the stone in person to assess the risks/benefits of a recut (and even then there are no guarantees).

If you are considering a recut, I would not spend money on another report as it would be worthless afterwards.

Unless someone offers you a lot of money based on origin, I would personally stick with your GIA report until you figure out what you want to do with it (If you are curious about the weight, buy an inexpensive gem scale).

But that is only my personal opinion as some do feel origin is very important. I care more about treatments, color and size when I buy...and to some degree cut. I only worry about origin when it further increases the rareness of a stone (like if you thought it might be a Kashmir sapphire). That being said, I am not your target market as it is out of my budget.

From my experience, AGL is really good about giving you initial findings on the phone and letting you upgrade the report before they finish. So definitely stop in and get their opinion.
 

Sunstorm

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
1,778
Wow I was already sure based on the first pix. I collect untreated sapphies just have a thing for them and love to study their inclusion map. The inclusions of untreated sapphires cannot be mistaken for anything else. Once you have seen a few you will know right away IMHO. Sooo happy for you and huge congrats will read through you thread now. Cool! My favorite kind of thread and stone.
 

prs

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 26, 2017
Messages
1,710
Sapphire Face Down.jpeg

Many of us here like wonky old cut diamonds and gemstones. But if this is a face down photo of the sapphire, we have a whole new definition for "wonky". :eek-2: =)2

That pavilion is something else, I would love to see more face down photos from all the different sides.

Edit: @airplay355 mind sharing the carat weight with us? Inquiring minds want to know. :mrgreen2:
 

airplay355

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
286
Yup that sure is the pavilion. I’ll take some more pics tonight, get ready…it’s wonky from all angles.

I weighed it and it’s 10.2ct right now (almost exactly 2.04g).

I emailed Gene and although he also doesn’t recut stones, he suggested it would probably be a good candidate as it’s deep and could make a lighter colored elongated cushion. It would probably lose half its weight though. I’m still not too sure what to do yet. A nicer 5ct stone or a weird dark 10ct stone
 

Cinders

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Messages
203
I am not an expert on anything so take this however you'd like. I would definitely prefer the huge, wonkiness of the original over something I could find elsewhere. Even if the cut made it look prettier, the fact that this is so huge, natural, untreated, old, and unusual makes it special, IMO. Especially since it is an inherited piece.

There's something intrinsically appealing in an item with a story to tell.

However, I appreciate dusty, old books over brand new ones every time, so clearly, this is just my view. (Though, I do believe it would also be held by others.)

I hope you reset the stone, restore it to a pendant or ring, and wear it & enjoy it throughout your lifetime, then pass it down to the next generation.

All the best to you with whatever you choose!
 

kellie gosselin

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
Messages
9
Let’s play pretend.
If you do get it recut - what’s the end goal?
to wear or sell?
If it goes down to an 8x10 oval or pear, will the culet/keel be centered or will it have to go even smaller face up for that?
Will you compromise face up size for a off center culet/keel? Can they have a plan to eliminate or prevent half half extinction in an elongated cut?
Will the recut focus on light return or color retention? Losing belly weight might very well change the color and not necessarily just lighten it - it may desaturate to more of a grayish blue? That’s not going to ‘help’ the ‘value’, neither will a recut if what you are left with centers on the cloudy areas you’ve mentioned.
you’ve got the cutters evaluation to pay for - possible multiple if you are specific on light return cut vs color retention. Shipping and insurance (and insure for what?) back and forth that goes with it.
the actual recut and another lab report if you wish.
and most likely a custom setting if it’s not recut into a calibrated size.


did you ever contact Lang’s with your GIA report info to see what they’d offer?

im all for heirloom pieces - as I’ll never have any. Recutting it into something you can easily find a lookalike in BrilliantEarths inventory, leaves me cold.
Research before and after recuts on colored stones, here and elsewhere.
you /your family being happy with the outcome and being aware of all possible outcomes is the most important part.

can and will you indulge me with a photo of it on the back of your hand, outside on a sunny day, but not direct sun lighting? Have it be in indirect sun lighting? Just trying to see color in different lighting sources, as I don’t think any of your previous photos are natural light that possibly shows it at its best?

Totally off topic Rfisher but what are the specks on YOUR ring! I love it!
 
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    Valentine's Day Gift Inspo
    Valentine's Day Gift Inspo - 01/14
    Top 10 Gifts Under $500 for 2022
    Top 10 Gifts Under $500 for 2022 - 01/12
    Natural Diamond Prices - January 2022
    Natural Diamond Prices - January 2022 - 01/11
Top