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Face up and color questions

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laplacz

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2004
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46
Just wondering... Will a well cut round stone typically face up a grade or two color higher? Is there any type of standard expectation (Ideal H will typically face up F or G) , or does it depend on the stone.(Some sones will face up better while others remain the same, Cut being equal)


Thanks
JOE
 

neatfreak

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Feb 17, 2007
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14,167
It depends on what you're comparing to. A round will face up brighter than most fancy cut stones, but a "G" is still a G and an "I" is still an I. If an H really looked as white as a G, then it would have been graded a G.

BUT all being equal, a really well cut round will HIDE color better than other cuts. Most people consider G-H a safe range for platinum, but if your GF is not color sensitive, you can sometimes go even down to a J and have it still face up white. You will most likely notice some warmth from the sides though in the lower colors (I-J). All a personal preference for how much color you can take.

Does that make sense? I hope so. Good luck!

ETA: Also, if you're comparing to "maul" stones which aren't graded as strictly, a really good G or H from AGS or GIA will most certainly be whiter than one graded from a poorer lab or without a certification at all.
 

laplacz

Rough_Rock
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Feb 27, 2004
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46
Makes sence. I am just trying to decide how low to go in color. I was innitialy only comfortable with going with a G, BUT it seems I can get a larger H for the same cost. I am just working through my own tolarances. A buddy of mine just bought an H ACA from whiteflash. Unset, i cauaght a little yellow face up. In the setting it was deffinately whiter.


Any idea once the stone was set it seemed whiter? Or is this just my own visual preception...?

Just trying to make my "Mind Clean" about things....

Thanks
JOE
 

neatfreak

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
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14,167
Again, it depends on what you were comparing it to.

When it was unset, was it on a piece of white paper? You will notice the yellow more there if it was.

As far as I know, being set does not make it look less yellow, and if in platinum, it could potentially emphasize the yellow. If it was set in yellow gold, then you have more leeway with color I think.

What we did, and what I highly recommend you do, is go to a local, reputable store that stocks AGS or GIA diamonds and ask to look at RB''s in a similar size, that are different colors. You will very quickly be able to see what your color tolerance is and will be able to make a better judgement call FOR YOU.

We ultimately went with a G, from an online vendor, because I thought H just had too much yellow for me. But that is just my opinion...
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
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2,509
Date: 3/31/2007 10:30:11 AM
Author: neatfreak
It depends on what you''re comparing to. A round will face up brighter than most fancy cut stones, but a ''G'' is still a G and an ''I'' is still an I. If an H really looked as white as a G, then it would have been graded a G.

BUT all being equal, a really well cut round will HIDE color better than other cuts. Most people consider G-H a safe range for platinum, but if your GF is not color sensitive, you can sometimes go even down to a J and have it still face up white. You will most likely notice some warmth from the sides though in the lower colors (I-J). All a personal preference for how much color you can take.

Does that make sense? I hope so. Good luck!

ETA: Also, if you''re comparing to ''maul'' stones which aren''t graded as strictly, a really good G or H from AGS or GIA will most certainly be whiter than one graded from a poorer lab or without a certification at all.
Neat....


The apparent color of diamonds can appear lower, the same or higher in the face up position. I have personally seen a K-L stone that faced up like a G.

Grading a diamond for its face up color is NOT accurate color grading, because diamond can face up differently than what their color grade is. ALL the major labs, color grade in the face down position.

THE ONLY WAY to accurately color grade a stone is under proper lighting, in the face down position, and diagonally viewed for fancy shaped stones. Even through the side, a diamond''s color can vary. The major labs, if they see a variance from one view to another AVERAGE the color grade.

Needless to say, since consumers "depend" on face up appearances of color, which of course is the only way they care about the body color appearance of the stone, since virtually NO ONE is generally going to set the stone upside down, there is some merit for a consumer to judge the face up appearance. BUT analyzing face up color can vary wildly, and rating a color in this way really isn''t the proper gemological way to do this.

The cutting of a stone CAN affect its appearance face up. If a stone does face up differently than its face down color grade, it is an opportunity for a consumer get a better appearing color in the face up position for a lower price. Fluoresence can also affect this. There are some cutters that are able to consisitently cut better face up appearing diamonds than others.

Generally speaking, consumers only care about "face up" which is certainly understandable. In setting a diamond the type and color of the metal used, as well as the finishing can also affect its appearance especially for brightness. For fancy shapes, sometimes how high or low the stone is set in the prongs can cause variance in its face up appearance even more drastically paticularly in the bow tie area.

Rockdoc
 

neatfreak

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
14,167
Thanks for clarifying Rockdoc. When I said "face up" I guess what I really meant was viewing it in a ring, from both the side and the top. I agree that stones can look better than their color grade, but isn''t it true that you will generally be able to see the truer color from the side? It was my perception that stones can look better than their color grade from the top down, but you will see the true color from the sides. Even in rings that do appear to be a better color from the top down, it often appears much yellower than the top on the sides, which bothers me. That''s why I was making the point that if you see some stones in person and are only comfortable with down to an H let''s say, you probably should just buy an H. Since he mentioned "mind clean" I thought that was safer for him than to try and find a lower color that faces up on top but would still bother him in the side view.

I guess to me it is important that the diamond not look yellow from the sides either, so I include that in my definition of "face up", which probably doesn''t make sense to anyone but me now that I think about it...

If I was unclear, I am sorry laplacz for any confustion! Rockdoc did a much better job explaining.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,633
I have 3 H stones that are beautiful, but they aren''t as icy white as a D or E. On the other hand, I can''t see color in them as much as I can in a J. H is a good compromise color to get more size for your money without getting an obvious tint. Mine are all set in white metal and look very white in natural light. If I had unlimited money, though, I''d probably go with E or F!
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
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2,509
Date: 3/31/2007 11:40:12 AM
Author: neatfreak
Thanks for clarifying Rockdoc. When I said ''face up'' I guess what I really meant was viewing it in a ring, from both the side and the top. I agree that stones can look better than their color grade, but isn''t it true that you will generally be able to see the truer color from the side? It was my perception that stones can look better than their color grade from the top down, but you will see the true color from the sides. Even in rings that do appear to be a better color from the top down, it often appears much yellower than the top on the sides, which bothers me. That''s why I was making the point that if you see some stones in person and are only comfortable with down to an H let''s say, you probably should just buy an H. Since he mentioned ''mind clean'' I thought that was safer for him than to try and find a lower color that faces up on top but would still bother him in the side view.

I guess to me it is important that the diamond not look yellow from the sides either, so I include that in my definition of ''face up'', which probably doesn''t make sense to anyone but me now that I think about it...

If I was unclear, I am sorry laplacz for any confustion! Rockdoc did a much better job explaining.
Thanks for the above.......

The "fooler" to consumers in many stores selling lower quality stones, is to take a stone of much lower color and set it in yellow gold. This causes stones with darker colors, to appear less colorless both from the sides and tops.

Also consider that the color of a diamond that causes a lower color grade may NOT be yellow. Color grading more "basically" explained ranges from colorless ( totally devoid of any color) to stones with Yellow, BROWN or greyish tints.
"Brownies" as they are called in the trade, can face up very deceptively, when set in yellow gold. You will find this a lot with tennis style bracelets, that have "bargain" prices. Unless you are really trained in how to grade color, grading such stones set in yellow gold, don''t get noticed by consumers or novices. Where consumers get fooled at lot is, when you "mentally" expect to see yellow and you don''t, but aren''t looking for other tints of color. In most H-I color stones, the "tint" is usually silvery ( light gray in a less saturation ). There is rarely yellow in a stone in the H-I color range that consumers can readilly notice. Some consumers have written that the see yellow in a H color stone. IMO they say that because they are mentally expecting the color tint to BE YELLOW. It rarely is.

Another interesting note, is what is called the "Master Eye Affect". Our eyes generally see a stone on the left, as less colorless than a stone on the right. So in making a comparison for grading, you need to switch places to be accurate in the color grading. Also the lighting type, kelvin temp, and any UV affect in color grading is paramount to what you see. I doubt that most sellers show body color of diamonds that people are considering in the proper grading environment.

Hope this helps.

Rockdoc
 

laplacz

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2004
Messages
46
Thank you for the continued explinations. I think rocdoc zeroed in on my issue. Ultimately, if the stone faces up whiter, that is all that really matters (To Me). It is the same difference as an eye clean SI. Yes there are inclusions, but for me , personally I dont care because no one can see them. If a stone faces up a G, does it really matter is on paper it is an H or I.? That is a personal "Mind Clean" issue.

It does seam to me that the face up color issue issue must be dealt with on a per stone basis though. Each stone must stand on its own with its own unique face up properties and be examined and compared accordingly in person. There is no standard or guarantee that an a well cut stone will likely face up better in color although this conversation does point to the fact that a consumer MAY get lucky with a stone that will face up better.
 

neatfreak

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
14,167
Date: 3/31/2007 11:58:56 AM
Author: laplacz
Thank you for the continued explinations. I think rocdoc zeroed in on my issue. Ultimately, if the stone faces up whiter, that is all that really matters (To Me). It is the same difference as an eye clean SI. Yes there are inclusions, but for me , personally I dont care because no one can see them. If a stone faces up a G, does it really matter is on paper it is an H or I.? That is a personal ''Mind Clean'' issue.


It does seam to me that the face up color issue issue must be dealt with on a per stone basis though. Each stone must stand on its own with its own unique face up properties and be examined and compared accordingly in person. There is no standard or guarantee that an a well cut stone will likely face up better in color although this conversation does point to the fact that a consumer MAY get lucky with a stone that will face up better.
I think you hit the nail on the head. You''re ready to go find a stone! Good luck!


And Rockdoc, thanks for the great lesson! Very interesting.
 

Unearthed

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
103
When I played with a set of master stones from the New England Gem Lab my first thought of the color differences was "That''s all?" To me, the difference between a D and a G or even an H is tiny. In fact, she let me look at my ring vs all the master stones from the top and from the side and within 3 color grades looks very similar from the top. Under magnification from the side is when you can see it. It also changes based on which side of the stone you look at.

To sum it up: I was very happy I bought the H and didn''t pay the premium to "Upgrade" to a better color.
 

justjulia

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2006
Messages
2,308
How into diamonds is your girlfriend? If so far you are the primary one doing the research, I would say that the general public looks at size first - not color-and she won''t be looking for it. I''d give H''s a chance. They can be a good deal. Buy from someone with a good trade up policy, just in case you decide you must go colorless. I personally feel that H is fabulous.
 

chiefneil

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
174
I recently upgraded my wife''s .8 D to a 1.8 H. We compared them side by side when the H arrived - both are set in white gold. Honestly, we couldn''t see a difference in color when looking from the top. I was relieved since I was shopping for a G but they were hard to come by so I took the H. We didn''t think to check from the side. Who looks at diamonds from the side once they''re set anyway?
 

kcoursolle

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
10,589
I think a key question is whether the stone in general will face up "white." You may be able to visually tell the difference between a G stone and a J stone...but will this difference bother you, do you like icey color instead, how important is size and saving money versus the slight difference in color? These are questions to think about. I would if possible check out some well-cut lower color stones in person if you are able to. Color is not really discernible through a computer monitor or pictures.

For me personally, I''m can "see" the difference between a G and a J, but I am perfectly comfortable with colors as low as J in stones around 2 carats or smaller if they are well-cut rounds. In fancies I''d go down to an H.
 

Fly Girl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 9, 2007
Messages
7,312
I posted a couple of pictures comparing my 1.5 F to some .4x Js here.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/it-worked-my-new-j-diamond-studs.56953/

You can see a difference in color from the side, but not face up. Now, as far as how you look at a diamond, I look at the diamond in my ring through the side all day long. It is set so I can see clearly through the stone from the side, and this is how I view it when my hand is cupped naturally in my lap, or laying on my desk. I have to twist my wrist a bit to the right in order to view the back of my hand directly. So, I appreciate my stone''s clear F-ness. However, I think the difference in color is kind of like the difference in color between a couple of random sheets of white paper. Yes, a bit different, but I frankly don''t care. Another reason I got the Js for earrings.
 

laplacz

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2004
Messages
46
Thank you for the continued responces in helping flush this issue out. This was innitially brought on by a friend of mine purchacing a 1.2 H ACA from whiteflash. I checked out the stone and thought "Its sparkles like crazy, whats wrong with that?". I noticed little if any color face up. Honnestly, it could have been my mind playing tricks AND i wasnt doing a side by side comparison. Only once upside down on white paper did I notice the "tint".

As I am still doing research and saving for the big purchace this discussion has helped me sort through this issue. Ultimately, my comfort level with going with an H graded stone has improved drastically. What it boils down to is that my preference is going to be to get the biggest acceptable stone (Acceptable stone by my preferences). As someone mentioned earlier, size is what people notice first. I beleive this to be true. I also think sparkle is a close deffinately second.

I am feeling that a 1.5- 1.8 H well cut stone is in my future... I will just have to ensure it faces up white...
 

justjulia

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2006
Messages
2,308
Well, just reach up and pat yourself on the back. You''re doing great! Keep us posted on what you find..
 

kcoursolle

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2006
Messages
10,589
Date: 4/2/2007 2:02:43 PM
Author: laplacz
Thank you for the continued responces in helping flush this issue out. This was innitially brought on by a friend of mine purchacing a 1.2 H ACA from whiteflash. I checked out the stone and thought ''Its sparkles like crazy, whats wrong with that?''. I noticed little if any color face up. Honnestly, it could have been my mind playing tricks AND i wasnt doing a side by side comparison. Only once upside down on white paper did I notice the ''tint''.

As I am still doing research and saving for the big purchace this discussion has helped me sort through this issue. Ultimately, my comfort level with going with an H graded stone has improved drastically. What it boils down to is that my preference is going to be to get the biggest acceptable stone (Acceptable stone by my preferences). As someone mentioned earlier, size is what people notice first. I beleive this to be true. I also think sparkle is a close deffinately second.

I am feeling that a 1.5- 1.8 H well cut stone is in my future... I will just have to ensure it faces up white...
You are going to be absolutely fine with an H! I think stones look even whiter when set...who cares if you can see a tint face down on a piece of white paper...that''s not how the ring is going to be viewed or appreciated!
 

BunniBling

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Messages
120
Date: 4/2/2007 2:18:51 PM
Author: kcoursolle

Date: 4/2/2007 2:02:43 PM
Author: laplacz
Thank you for the continued responces in helping flush this issue out. This was innitially brought on by a friend of mine purchacing a 1.2 H ACA from whiteflash. I checked out the stone and thought ''Its sparkles like crazy, whats wrong with that?''. I noticed little if any color face up. Honnestly, it could have been my mind playing tricks AND i wasnt doing a side by side comparison. Only once upside down on white paper did I notice the ''tint''.

As I am still doing research and saving for the big purchace this discussion has helped me sort through this issue. Ultimately, my comfort level with going with an H graded stone has improved drastically. What it boils down to is that my preference is going to be to get the biggest acceptable stone (Acceptable stone by my preferences). As someone mentioned earlier, size is what people notice first. I beleive this to be true. I also think sparkle is a close deffinately second.

I am feeling that a 1.5- 1.8 H well cut stone is in my future... I will just have to ensure it faces up white...
You are going to be absolutely fine with an H! I think stones look even whiter when set...who cares if you can see a tint face down on a piece of white paper...that''s not how the ring is going to be viewed or appreciated!
Ditto!

-J
 

kev-man

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
40
In my experience, the smaller the stone the more lenient the color will be. I''ve seen .5ct I that looks very white and 3ct. G that looked less white. We have a 2.4ct E and we are pairing it with a G/H wedding band as the band has much smaller stones. I think the color thing becomes a much bigger deal as you go over 2cts.

Just my $.02
 
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