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Extremely Concerned about on ongoing deal

Q

qwertyuiop

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 16, 2019
Messages
11
Hey Everyone,

I've been lurking here for a few weeks now trying to gather as much information as I can in order to purchase an engagement ring for my partner. After looking around Blue Nile, White Flash and James Allen I wanted to purchase something similar with excellent fire and no light leakages but without my order getting caught up in UK customs. I decided to visit a very well known brick and mortar store here in the UK. The dealer showed me something impressive and got me to put down a £500 deposit, after showing me images from the blue hearts and arrows viewer along with an "Ideal scope" which seemed impressive. However I'm pretty sure the dealer is pulling the wool over my eyes and trying to give me the run around because after placing the deposit I decided to do a little more research and I'm concerned the dealer was telling me porkies
I even questioned the dealer and asked if this was just a red hearts and arrows viewer to which he assured me it was an "ideal scope" Upon further investigation I'm pretty sure the "Ideal Scope" is just red Hearts and Arrows viewer and I've been conned. I'm not sure how to proceed with this deal as the receipt I was given says "no refunds on deposits or purchases" I'm due to collect my ring tomorrow. I've also attached an image of the "ideal scope" image.
20190810_152514.jpg

This is a very well known Dealer in the UK and somebody who should know better.
 
its a hearts and arrow viewer.
 
Karl_K said:
its a hearts and arrow viewer.
Click to expand...

This was my suspicion..
I want to back out of this deal right now but am afraid of loosing my deposit.
 
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There are some different ideal scope models the red ones here are the current models:
https://ideal-scope.com/
An older one looks like this:
ideal-scope.jpg
 
download (8).jpeg
The scope I was shown looked like this :angryfire:
 
Print out some pictures of the ideal scope and show him ask and ask for a refund.
See what happens.
I'm not up on UK law and consumer groups/review sites but in the US I would mention the Attorney generals office, BBB and yelp.
 
Karl_K said:
Print out some pictures of the ideal scope and show him ask and ask for a refund.
See what happens.
I'm not up on UK law and consumer groups/review sites but in the US I would mention the Attorney generals office, BBB and yelp.
Click to expand...

I'm most uncertain that they will Honour a refund and I'm pretty sure I will have to take them to court to get my money back.
This is the Diamond in question and wanted to know even with the BS I've been given what peoples thoughts are on this Diamond.
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2327455657
 
It’s not terrible. What concerns you about it?
 
whitewave said:
It’s not terrible. What concerns you about it?
Click to expand...

To be honest not much, The Diamond itself seems excellent and shows a very very good but not excellent hearts pattern. It has plenty of fire and scintillation and I was allowed to view it in an outdoor environment. My only concern is that I'm confused as to why the dealer would lie to me about a hearts and arrows viewer being the same thing as an Ideal scope. I'm paying £2200 including tax for the Diamond and the Ring (Solid Platinum) and I am aware this is slightly at the more expensive end of the spectrum for this type of ring But it's very far off from being a total rip off. I have no problem with paying a premium for what I'm buying but I expect that if I pay that premium I'm not going to be lied to
 
It's not a bad stone at all, but no that's not an ideal scope viewer, as said previously. I would personally want more size (vs D/IF), but that's a personal decision. Yes it's pricey, but you'll pay a premium for the color and clarity. So it's definitely not a total rip off given what you are looking for.
 
I don’t see any issues with the stone, especially for a D/IF, it has a beautiful cut. While the jeweler wasn’t honest or well-informed about the difference between IS and H&A viewer, the diamond is still lovely.
 
qwertyuiop said:
My only concern is that I'm confused as to why the dealer would lie to me about a hearts and arrows viewer being the same thing as an Ideal scope.
Click to expand...

Most jewelers have never heard of the idealscope and don't know much at all about cut quality - only what the GIA cut quality grades are. It is likely ignorance rather than malice, but he still should have said to you that he didn't know what you meant by idealscope, rather than lying.
 
The 'no refunds on deposits or purchases' would have been a red flag to me - regardless of what store it was or what I was buying, jewellery or not.

That said, if the diamond looks good to your eyes and the angles/performance checks out, don't stress about minutiae if it would be a total hassle to start over again.

It would be lovely to see pictures when it is set if you are happy to post them :)
 
I agree with the no refund policy - in this day and age you don’t have to be stuck with such a thing. I too though am guessing he doesn’t know what an IS scope is and thinks the hearts and arrow viewer is the same thing. I would show him the difference though and tell him that you are having reservations because of it. The diamond is pretty and while not a branded hearts and arrows stone it should still be a lovely diamond.
 
Thanks for the replies, The dealer initially sold me this Diamond for the same price,
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=1317655182
However something didn't seem right about it. The colour seemed off like it was milky but I was told this was because of the Inclusions and there wasn't much fire either.. When placed side by side with the 0.41 IF it didn't sparkle as much and it seemed clear that the 0.41 was much brighter, whiter and better Diamond. It's playing on my mind that the Dealer deliberately deceived me knowing that if the first stone was placed under an Ideal scope there would be very obvious light leakages and wanted to cover this up to sell it to me knowing that the average consumer could easily be tricked into thinking a H&A viewer is an ideal scope. I'm going to take a guess and gamble on this one as I think I've already gone too far into this to back out now. I'll try and post some photos up tomorrow!
 
qwertyuiop said:
Thanks for the replies, The dealer initially sold me this Diamond for the same price,
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=1317655182
However something didn't seem right about it. The colour seemed off like it was milky but I was told this was because of the Inclusions and there wasn't much fire either.. When placed side by side with the 0.41 IF it didn't sparkle as much and it seemed clear that the 0.41 was much brighter, whiter and better Diamond. It's playing on my mind that the Dealer deliberately deceived me knowing that if the first stone was placed under an Ideal scope there would be very obvious light leakages and wanted to cover this up to sell it to me knowing that the average consumer could easily be tricked into thinking a H&A viewer is an ideal scope. I'm going to take a guess and gamble on this one as I think I've already gone too far into this to back out now. I'll try and post some photos up tomorrow!
Click to expand...
That link has a stone with an HCA score of 5.7 - in other words, terrible, so it's not a surprise it looked dead.

The stone you have purchased has an HCA score of 0.6. Anything under 2(ish) is worth considering, so it is much better. The score under 1 shows it is a shallow stone so has more 'spread' (physical diameter) for its carat weight than other stones, as the HCA 'Looks Like' score of 'Bigger' shows.

It should look lovely so do not worry about the dealer's unscrupulousness (whether accidental or intended) - you have 'dodged that bullet' and done well in the end, so enjoy your purchase! You do at least have a great story to tell when people ask about the ring, and you can always make sure to mention the vendor's name to anyone who asks ;)
 
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The D/if changes things a little they are very rarely well cut and while not a super-ideal even without an IS its well cut.
If you want a D/IF the odds are there isn't a better cut one out there in that size range.
The .54 is very badly cut.
 
Karl_K said:
The D/if changes things a little they are very rarely well cut and while not a super-ideal even without an IS its well cut.
If you want a D/IF the odds are there isn't a better cut one out there in that size range.
The .54 is very badly cut.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response, I'm no expert (but I think I'm getting there :D) However even by eye I could tell the .41 was better cut.

OoohShiny said:
That link has a stone with an HCA score of 5.7 - in other words, terrible, so it's not a surprise it looked dead.

The stone you have purchased has an HCA score of 0.6. Anything under 2(ish) is worth considering, so it is much better. The score under 1 shows it is a shallow stone so has more 'spread' (physical diameter) for its carat weight than other stones, as the HCA 'Looks Like' score of 'Bigger' shows.

It should look lovely so do not worry about the dealer's unscrupulousness (whether accidental or intended) - you have 'dodged that bullet' and done well in the end, so enjoy your purchase! You do at least have a great story to tell when people ask about the ring, and you can always make sure to mention the vendor's name to anyone who asks ;-)
Click to expand...

I'm gonna try and close the deal tomorrow, See if I can get them to knock a little $$$ off the final price as I feel I'm quite not getting what I asked for when I walked in.

I'll keep you all updated!
 
I live in the Netherlands and I’ve noticed that people here on PS are much more knowledgeable on diamonds and colored Stones compared to jewellers. My guess is that is that it’s not much different in the UK. Your jeweller probable lacks knowledge in this area.

You have done well by doing your homework while diamond shopping. Looking forward to admire lots of pics of your ring.
 
I fully agree with everyone else here that the jeweller will have had no idea what an idealscope was (you should have tried asking for ASET pictures, that's always a laugh!). They probably justified themselves by thinking you misnamed the hearts and arrow viewers, especially when you accepted the demonstration from one. That's not your fault but I doubt they were being malicious, they were just being the usual jeweller type personality here in the UK.

I agree that alarm bells should ring with the lack of ability to get a refund, and that's not a small deposit. I suspect their upgrade policy, if it exists, is also pretty stringent (like spend 100% more). Also worth finding that information out for the future. I originally bought a stone from a place very much like that, and when I wanted to upgrade, I cut my losses and ran away because I had learnt enough that their ignorance about the very industry they were working in was unbearable.

Please don't feel cheated, you've actually done extremely well with that diamond considering its colour and clarity, and you shouldn't let an unsatisfactory jeweller ruin a really lovely stone.

We are excited and looking forward to seeing pictures! I bet it's going to be beautiful!
 
Okay guys!

So I got the ring! When I went back to collect it, I had the pleasure of dealing with the main manager. I could tell right away that he knew his stuff, we spoke about Aset scopes and angle cuts and he was on the point with everything and reiterated what others here pointed out to me and let me know how lucky I was to get this Diamond. I've come to the conclusion and given the first guy I spoke with the benefit of doubt that that he just made a mistake and didn't understand what I was after.

The Diamond is absolutely beautiful. And this picture does it no justice whatsoever,
I must say it Sparkles like crazy! Pretty much in all lighting environments although there's less fire when it's overcast and a bit dull. I must say in Direct sunlight on a bright day I stared into it and thought I was going to do some serious eye damage when I got blinded by rainbow bursts of blue red and green.
Although my favourite light setting has to be in candle light / low light. The Diamond sets off like a firework and just goes absolutely crazy! I'm not going to publicly name the Dealer but if anybody is curious or would like to know where I got this I will be happy to respond to direct messages.
IMG_20190817_145332.jpg

P.S (She said yes) :D
 
Congratulations! Delighted for you. Please share more photos if you're able!

Diamonds are complicated mirrors... Their light performance will reflect their environment, so on a cloudy day you're likely to get brilliance/white light return compared to under direct spotlighting when you'll get fire and scintillation (sparkle). Sounds like you did very well!
 
Congratulations @qwertyuiop :appl: Glad to hear your fears were put to rest by a knowledgeable employee and that you are happy & at peace with the overall purchase! It’s beautiful!
 
Looks great! Just FYI we don't have any direct messaging function here, and people are always looking for trustworthy B&M stores. So I think you would help people out a lot if you named the vendor, since many people in the UK don't want to deal with VAT and would prefer to find something in person if possible.
 
It looks beautiful - congrats! So glad that you are both happy with the ring!
 
lovedogs said:
Looks great! Just FYI we don't have any direct messaging function here, and people are always looking for trustworthy B&M stores. So I think you would help people out a lot if you named the vendor, since many people in the UK don't want to deal with VAT and would prefer to find something in person if possible.
Click to expand...

Didn't realise there was no DM on here! :wall:
For those curious it was Marlows Diamonds. From my understanding they have two stores here in the UK their main store is in Birmingham, however I bought from the store in London, which is located next to Harrods.

I searched about Hatton Garden a lot too. And I can't really recommend that as some shops offered me some very nice Diamonds at Not so very nice prices. And a lot of dodgy people offered me things that seemed too good to be true and only wanted to be paid in cash :$$): .
 
Here are a couple of extra shots of it,

Diamonds have to be one of the hardest things to photograph!
It's really hard to capture what you see with your eye compared to what you see in a still image.

This one was taken under normal indoor lighting
IMG_20190820_175055.jpg

And this one we went into a High street chain of Jewellery stores (very overpriced) and asked to photograph the pattern with their Hearts and arrows viewer! The pattern in this photograph seems a lot better, symmetrical and cleaner than the first one I uploaded. I'm not sure if that was another Diamond (the 0.54 that I swapped out) or just a really bad H&A viewer
IMG_20190820_173855.jpg
 
Diamonds are nearly impossible to photograph. I even read the help pages on it and still struggle.

Nice of that place to let you use their scope to photograph.

Congratulations again!
 
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