Emerald cut search - expert help please!

[pancake]

Hi all,

I'm new here but have been diligently (ok, obsessively) reading all the advice previously given about buying ECs.

At the moment Dan at ERD is looking into stones for us. It is for a plain solitaire setting.

The pic attached shows 4 stones sourced by ERD - I know that we need detailed top-down and side-on pics, but I was interested in face value impressions.

Ignore the 1st and 3rd stones - they look horrible. From the limited pic I have, I like the look of 4 - not because it's bigger but because the patterns look pretty to my very untrained eye! At the angle of the photo I don't think I can really tell if the crown facet pattern looks too dark or not.

Now, neither stone 2 nor 4 has the cut dimensions that are so often discussed here. Both meet our requirements for carat weight, colour and clarity.

2: 70.1% Depth, 70% Table
4: 59.6% Depth, 68% Table

I see that 2 is deep with a very large table, and 4 is shallow with a large table. I have no Sarin info for these two at this stage.

I guess my question is, is the fact a stone looks bright/pretty enough to look into it further? Or should we just go back to the drawing board already? Is it possible that eg. stone 4, whilst having all the "wrong" characteristics, could be a great stone? I know that PS wisdom often says that an EC should have table < depth with table preferably <65.

We haven't discussed this with Dan yet (timezone differences - we're in Australia) but I imagine he may have something to say about it.

Obviously one can read and read and read but there's no substitute for actual experience (of which I have ZERO)!

Many thanks from a puzzled antipodean

 

[Dreamer_D]

ERD is notorious for their photos. It is too bad it is so hard to tell anything much from those pics

I agree that 2 and 4 look best, but that may only be a contrast with the other two which are not that great looking.

See what they have to say at ERD, since they are actually looking at the stones. You might also consider calling WF and GOG to see what they have. Maybe something better? No harm in contacting a few different vendors.

 

[Hest88]

Unfortunately, I find it impossible to tell from that pict what you should choose.

 

[marcy]

If I were to pack from the photos I would go for # 2. You can ask their honest opinion and let them know what you expect. If they have a return policy you are comfortable with you can have them send you the one they think meets your specs and see what you think. Good luck. I hope you find a real beauty. I am an EC fan.

 

[bgray]

not liking these

 

[pancake]

Mmmm. I know, the photo is not fantastic to say the least!

Dan''s comment was that he''d spent quite a while trying to take a photo that would accurately represent the comparison in performance. He agrees that 1 and 3 are bad and that I should largely ignore them, and that part of the purpose of putting them all together was to make sure that I was happy with the shape/ratio that I''d specified.

We have contacted both GOG and WF - GOG sent a helpful initial reply but we haven''t heard anything since, and WF had an initial rush of phone/email replies and interest, before going off the radar entirely - I spoke to the WF rep 6 days ago, specified what we were looking for, and haven''t heard from them since

I''m unsure of what other kinds of photos ERD may be able to produce - we picked them for their "eyes" rather than their photos! - but these are the first stones they''ve pulled out so presumably there are some more kicking around.

 

[bgray]

Date: 1/13/2010 11:28:15 PM
Author: pancake
Mmmm. I know, the photo is not fantastic to say the least!


Dan's comment was that he'd spent quite a while trying to take a photo that would accurately represent the comparison in performance. He agrees that 1 and 3 are bad and that I should largely ignore them, and that part of the purpose of putting them all together was to make sure that I was happy with the shape/ratio that I'd specified.


We have contacted both GOG and WF - GOG sent a helpful initial reply but we haven't heard anything since, and WF had an initial rush of phone/email replies and interest, before going off the radar entirely - I spoke to the WF rep 6 days ago, specified what we were looking for, and haven't heard from them since

I'm unsure of what other kinds of photos ERD may be able to produce - we picked them for their 'eyes' rather than their photos! - but these are the first stones they've pulled out so presumably there are some more kicking around.

i must say I dont think ERD is your best bet for EC's. Can you try again with Whiteflash? Good Old Gold? What about James Allen?

Its not the pix-its the pix and the numbers.........really weak

 

[pancake]

Researching this forum I found that ERD, GOG and WF all have excellent reputations for sourcing good ECs. As I previously mentioned, I am still awaiting follow-up contact with the other two vendors.

Interestingly of the stones pictured above, stone 3 is the one with the best "numbers" as per many PS discussions in the past.

I guess my question is really, how much do "bad numbers" preclude a stone from being beautiful? I guess the question is a silly one but I am wondering whether I am going to miss some beautiful ECs by "filtering by numbers", so to speak.

 

[bgray]

pictures like this are somewhat meaningless. numbers can be a great indicator or not. there are many factors at play. ERD is not to my knowledge known for EC''s or really much besides cushions. not to say they cant get them but you dont want a vendor that will waste your time either.

 

[Po10472]

Emerald cuts and Asschers are all about light performance and you can''t always predict this using numbers alone, you need to see a step cut. Sure, use the ratios, table % etc, but you have to feel it, see it for yourself. Also, apart from a sarin report or asset image, you''d be better off looking at the stone in diffused lighting as you can clearly see where there is light and leakage.

I know there are many excellent vendors who sell step cuts but it would appear that GOG have the edge as does James Allen for selling fine stones. The beauty with GOG is that Jon videos his stones and explains clearly what you are viewing when looking at diffused lighting. For this type of cut, I''d want to see how it performs more than what the numbers say.

Have a look on GOGs site at the videos and you''ll see what I mean. As for the stones you mention above, can you get asset images, this will show you any leakage?

This is a table which shows you the l/w ratio of step cuts......I like fat ECs myself.

 

[pancake]

Thanks for the helpful reply, Po.

Reviewing the email from ERD, I suspect that Dan was sending images to clarify shape/ratio etc than anything else. I'll talk to him in the morning and see.

I have had a trawl through WF - who do seem to have a bigger virtual inventory currently (presumably other vendors could source the same stones too though). I've sent another email to them chasing it up but I do kind of feel like they should be chasing us

We are still waiting to hear back from Sarah at GOG - apparently they have been understaffed over the last week or two and are responding to emails more slowly than usual.

Looking in the James Allen inventory, there were no stones that piqued my interest

Ratio-wise, I am looking around the 1:4-1:5 range. The squarer ones looked funny on my fingers.

 

[Dreamer_D]

A phonecall can work wonders sometimes when e-mail is not cutting the mustard.

 

[pancake]

This is true. The issue is the time difference - all the vendors close about an hour after I wake up during which I am madly trying to get myself out of the house in some semblance of order! But looks like I might have to give it a shot tomorrow.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I think that vendors get a lot of emails and perhaps sometimes don''t know how serious the person is, whereas a phonecall says the client is serious. Maybe a good assumption on their part, maybe bad, but hopefully you will have better luck speaking in person!

 

[stone-cold11]

Good luck.

 

[Lestat]

By all means, stick with your chosen vendor if you're comfortable there, but I'd just like to share my experience with Whiteflash for your consideration.

I purchased my emerald cut diamond through Whiteflash with a lot of help from others here on Pricescope, I had great support via e-mail, most days I could send an e-mail when I woke up in the morning, and I'd already have a reply before I left for work! Some days I could even get another e-mail out and a second reply!

My main point of contact there was Chris Gonzales, his e-mail service was excellent and he even has followed up with me a few times since to ask how my ring was going (I had it custom made by an outside vendor using Whiteflash's diamond). You could also try their "Live Chat" feature on their website if you wake up early enough or stay up late enough, it was good for me to get some quick answers when I was trying to transfer money back and forth before work! And it was Chris who happened to answer when I joined the Live Chat, so I lucked out there again.

I would recommend giving Whiteflash another shot before you write them off as an option, maybe try a different salesperson there if you were unhappy with the last one. I never actually had to make a phone call since their e-mail service was so great, which was definitely not the case with other vendors I worked with.

The only things that were slight negatives for me were having to pay for shipping on the other 2 diamonds I had called in for analysis and rejected because they didn't meet my standards (fair enough, it costs money to do things like that), and the fact that Whiteflash doesn't do video of their diamonds, which would have been a nice extra for choosing an emerald cut, however I still felt that I was given enough information to make an informed choice.

Just my 2 cents, good luck in your search!

 

[pancake]

So last night we sent detailed emails to Whiteflash and GOG.

This morning I have an email from ERD with another photo stone 4 (again not a technical photo but taken in diffused light, which shows nice light/dark patterns right to the edges) as well as confirmation of my suspicion that the original photo was just to make sure that he was looking for the right kind of thing for us - he was off to look at 3 more diamonds that he hoped might be in line with what he and we are looking for! So that is promising.

When emailing WF (the consultant there is Traci - haven't seen her mentioned here before) I included links of 5 stones that came up in a WF search that I thought might be looking at. I got a reply this morning, acknowledging that I'd listed the stones and was in the right ball park but she came up with 2 GIA reports for 2 completely different stones so I am assuming that the 5 I listed are unavailable? Don't know. In any case she came up with an E VVS1 (Depth 60.4/Table 63) and an F IF (Depth 64.5/Table 61) - and apparently the supplier said the latter was the better.

I've emailed to say I'm interested in seeing the F IF but at the same time I think I somewhat baulk at the idea of paying for an F IF when I am perfectly happy with a G VS1-2 - I kind of feel like I would prefer not to pay the premium on colour and clarity and spend that instead on cut and to some degree weight.

Presumably GOG are still snowed under and I won't hear from them for a couple of days - will try and get organised and call them tomorrow.

ETA: Somewhere on PS I previously found an online L:W "calculator" which had a dynamic graphic that showed you the shape of the stone as the L/W changed - does anyone know where that is? My browser crashed yesterday and I lost it!

 

[neatfreak]

I''ve worked with both Traci at WF and ERD. You are in good hands either way. ERD''s pictures are generally pretty bad but I have not seen them recommend a stone to someone that was a complete dud. They are very good at picking great stones in the end.

FWIW I am sure if you told ERD that you wanted to talk to them on the phone they would arrange to stay an hour or two later for you. They are very accommodating.

 

[pancake]

Got an email (well, several) from Dan at ERD: he went out, brought back 2 stones, one of which he hated and the other of which he loves. It's an E VS2 (good plot too - he sent me a scan of the cert) - depth 65.2/table 64, with the extra pavilion facet. He sent me another ERD photo (which whilst limited, I do appreciate to some degree as it is not taken in "ideal" light conditions and so I have some idea of whether it looks awful or good irl) comparing it to the F VS1 (depth 59.6/table 6 and I have to say, they both look good.

What I like about the new (smaller) one is that it has those crown facet twinkles, and also (presumably because of the extra pavilion facets) the virtual steps are narrower and give narrower bands of contrast. I do think the other one looks pretty elegant regardless of the numbers (and in 5 or 6 photos I've now seen of it, it does look really pretty - consistently light/dark to the edges, no photos in which there are black holes/black stairwells, different angles).

Example picture below (yes yes, ERD picture quality, but anyway): E VS2 to the left, F VS1 to the right.

 

[Laila619]

Keep in mind I''m no expert on ECs, but those both look very pretty to me!

 

[emeraldlover1]

Based on those I like the E. The F, while larger, seems to have larger facet patterns which I don''t find as appealing as the E. I also bought my EC from ERD. I was fortunate that I live close enough to work with them in person. What is said about the pictures is true however I was very happy with all the stones they brought in for us to compare. I hope that helps.

 

[marcy]

Date: 1/14/2010 9:07:46 PM
Author: Laila619
Keep in mind I''m no expert on ECs, but those both look very pretty to me!

Ditto.

 

[bgray]

The stone on the left has sort of a strange shape. IMO I dont think the outline is very pleasing.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Which one does Dan prefer? They both look pretty good to me.

 

[pancake]

There are several other photos I haven''t attached but my gut at the moment is going with the E - I am pretty convinced that the F is beautiful despite the numbers and I''m confident Dan wouldn''t advise us otherwise, but I think the E is likely to be a livelier stone with a bit more twinkle. We''re planning to have a discussion about it tomorrow!

Do you think it''s greedy of me to ask Dan to see if he can find any more? I kind of feel like with this online process, I''ll feel more reassured if I see MORE MORE MORE (although as Dan points out, it''s hard when he''s now only showing me nice stones - if he showed me "horrible ones" the comparison would be easier

) - but I don''t want to be too demanding. I guess in the end it''s a sizable purchase and we have to feel sure.

 

[Lorelei]

Hi pancake

It would be helpful if you could get an ASET image for each diamond, it isn't possible to tell much from the photos as they aren't close up and clear. ERD can sometimes provide ASET on request, also ask if they can run a Sarin scan to get the crown height percentage for each diamond too please.

 

[Lestat]

Date: 1/14/2010 5:57:29 PM
Author: pancake

ETA: Somewhere on PS I previously found an online L:W ''calculator'' which had a dynamic graphic that showed you the shape of the stone as the L/W changed - does anyone know where that is? My browser crashed yesterday and I lost it!

Here''s the shape selector you''re after: http://www.gemappraisers.com/shapePickerNew.asp

 

[pancake]

Great - thanks Lestat!

Sarin is coming. I don't think ERD will give us ASET (given they can't take detailed photos of the stone even without filters) but I am comfortable with their expertise. Am considering having the F IF stone at WF brought in for a lookie and I know that they would provide ASET but F IF isn't really what I'm after and they haven't yet come up with anything that really fits - and I'd have to pay for having it evaluated.

 

[bgray]

you shouldnt buy anything from anyone if they havent shown you enough. dont take something just because it happens to be the best thing you ve been shown.

 

[bgray]

"Now, neither stone 2 nor 4 has the cut dimensions that are so often discussed here. Both meet our requirements for carat weight, colour and clarity."



Pancake: It is easy for a vendor to meet the carat, color and clarity requirements but NOT so easy to meet the great cut quality request. Please dont disregard these factors, simply because that is all they have shown you.