Emerald Cut ideal Specs: Please advise & educate

[Lorelei]

FWIW, my new 6.59 ct. EC technically falls in the "too shallow" category, yet the stone is super-bright, sparkly-with colorful fire, has the "hall of mirrors" effect and is one of the most beautiful EC's I've ever seen, including the ones I've seen in Graff. It's L-color and it doesn't even have the super-high crown that people rave about, yet I wouldn't trade it!
I've been told, I've read it here and I believe it, that you can't judge a fancy from the numbers because they don't fully predict how the stone will perform. What's important with EC's in terms of numbers are the length, width and symmetry. For the rest, you must let your eyes be the judge because otherwise, you might settle for a stone that's less than exciting IRL or pass on something great because of it's "pedigree" on a piece of paper!

That's the thing exactly, EC's and especially big ones have to be evaluated in a different way, especially as diamonds of these sizes are thin on the ground anyway, an open mind and some flexibility can be so useful.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would take that HW 6.36 in a second if I could. Gorgeous ring and it will always hold value due to the brand. Of course, I would negotiate the price.

I have no problem with I color in a large step cut. But you have the budget for higher color.

 

[chl]

I have to admit that, personally speaking, I just don't look at the actual numerical specs of stepcuts!

Unlike Rounds (of all flavours), for which we have ASETscope and IdealScope and HCA tools to use to assess, and there are known 'best combinations' of crown angles and pavilion angles and table sizes which ensure the highest light performance / miminal leakage / good contrast (hence the 'SuperIdeals' range of cuts and the also the various 'flavours' of new and genuinely vintage cuts), the facets and angles of ECs and Asschers seem to have a lot more variability.

This means that one can view 'chunky' faceting, 'skinny' faceting, 'antique' style, 'modern' style, 3-step/4-step/5-step crowns, 3-step/4-step/5-step pavilions, clipped corners / squared-off corners, skinny windmills / fat windmills / no windmills (carré-cut style), straight pavilions / 'portly' pavilions, no culet / open culet, defective and spot-on Pavilion 3 facets, 'hall of mirrors' effect (if you're lucky!), slow-moving vs fast-moving flashes...

While Rounds can also have different 'flavours' in terms of faceting (chunky vintage-look producing lots of fire Vs skinny Solasfera or Eightstar producing lots of splintery white-light scintillation), the angles still have to be in certain ranges to work well, as mentioned.

Stepcuts, however, seem to be a lot more difficult to get 'right' - I don't think they necessarily have more angles and facets (so more work to get them all interacting successfully with each other), but to me, they are more 'artisinal', meaning the cutters can tweak the various faceting angles to produce different looks.

That is why I don't believe there is necessarily one set range of numerical values to stick with for stepcuts, in terms of angles / table sizes / etc. - there is just too much variation and too many options to consider, and even when the angles etc. look like they'll be complementary to each other, sometimes a stone just looks, well, a bit crap...

I therefore just look for stones that perform really well to my eyes and pretty much ignore all the actual numerical details, other than carat and size measurements because they are usually key criteria in a search.

Is this approach incorrect? I don't know - I believe that @Rockdiamond would approve, as he has previously expressed many times his frustration with 'numerical' grading systems that take no account of beauty but (IIRC) @oldminer has posted a table showing graded ranges of angles etc., so perhaps I am wrong in my approach?

I would have to let others comment on my success or failure - I can only recommend what I think looks good and performs really well in the videos!

Of course, if my approach is leading people astray / completely wrong / recommending terrible stones, someone please do tell me!!


Anyway, WRT that 5ct asscher, I just find that it looks incredible in the video - lots of coloured fire (which seems rare for stepcuts), lots of white light flashes across the stone from edge to edge but without being 'all-on' or 'all-off' at the same time, what looks like that 'hall of mirrors' effect (where it looks like the stone goes down forever in the centre when head-on and a few degrees each side ), and pleasing contrast/obstruction patterns (to my eye).

Compare it to the other options available on James Allen and other sites, and see if you agree that it looks different and seems to have completely different performance to most other stones!

Oh my....WOW

This means that one can view:
'chunky' faceting vs 'skinny' faceting: which one reflects more optimal flashes?
'antique' style vs 'modern' style: personal preference. I believe I prefer modern
3-step/4-step/5-step crowns vs 3-step/4-step/5-step pavilions: crowns vs pavilions- what is the difference...
clipped corners / squared-off corners: what is the difference?
skinny windmills / fat windmills / no windmills (carré-cut style): which one reflects more optimal flashes?
straight pavilions / 'portly' pavilions: which one reflects more optimal flashes?
no culet / open culet: from what I know, no cutlet is desired
defective and spot-on Pavilion 3 facets: no defects id assume
'hall of mirrors' effect (if you're lucky!): how do you gage what is "hall of mirrors"
low-moving vs fast-moving flashes: fast moving flashes should be desired right? I'd assume slow/low moving flashes would mean leakage?


I would like to take this time to personally thank all of you with educating me, the inputs and recommendations and suggestions have been none but extremely helpful. You all are such passionate, knowledgeable and kind people. Sorry if I have sSOOOOOOO much questions and SOOOOO uneducated. I almost feel like what a shame/waste that I am looking at high carat weight but so unaware/uneducated in EC.

 

[chl]

I now have a video of the 6.36 carats but it won't let me upload.

 

[chl]

FWIW, my new 6.59 ct. EC technically falls in the "too shallow" category, yet the stone is super-bright, sparkly-with colorful fire, has the "hall of mirrors" effect and is one of the most beautiful EC's I've ever seen, including the ones I've seen in Graff. It's L-color and it doesn't even have the super-high crown that people rave about, yet I wouldn't trade it!
I've been told, I've read it here and I believe it, that you can't judge a fancy from the numbers because they don't fully predict how the stone will perform. What's important with EC's in terms of numbers are the length, width and symmetry. For the rest, you must let your eyes be the judge because otherwise, you might settle for a stone that's less than exciting IRL or pass on something great because of it's stats on a piece of paper!

Wow wow wow!! your 6.59 ct EC sounds amazing!!
May I ask what might your LW symmetry be? the 6.36 symmetry isn't excellent, but 'good'.

Thank you!!!

 

[chl]

I would take that HW 6.36 in a second if I could. Gorgeous ring and it will always hold value due to the brand. Of course, I would negotiate the price.

I have no problem with I color in a large step cut. But you have the budget for higher color.

That's nice to hear you would prefer the 6ct over the 8ct.
If you don't mind me asking, with your. knowledge what is a fair price for the 6 HW in 2ndary market? How much can I negotiate for?

As for I color in large step cut, wouldn't the large carat size table show the color more? Given the budget, you would choose an E color over I color but sacrifice the 8 ct to 6ct?

Thanks dolL!!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am out of town right now but I will try look at prices tonight.

I think I’d rather have an E color HW ring at 6 cts than a no name I color 8 ct. but it is definitely possible that I might find an F-G-H Emerald cut stone that I like. But I love that whole HW ring and the center stone. But if you want closer to $200k, I think we need to look some more. I haven’t had a chance to look at all the stones posted today yet.

 

[Blingalingaling]

Wow wow wow!! your 6.59 ct EC sounds amazing!!
May I ask what might your LW symmetry be? the 6.36 symmetry isn't excellent, but 'good'.

Thank you!!!

Hi,

Wow wow wow!! your 6.59 ct EC sounds amazing!!
May I ask what might your LW symmetry be? the 6.36 symmetry isn't excellent, but 'good'.

Thank you!!!

Hi, Chl! Thanks for your question! I'll try to answer as best I can.

The length of my stone is 12.85mm, the width is 9.92mm. My EC is 6.59 ct. which refers to it's Carat Weight, which has no bearing on the stone's Symmetry grade.

GIA graded my EC "Very Good" which refers to the CUT ( meaning that the stone is very symmetrical) and is considered to be a high grade in that category.

The Symmetry grade has nothing to do with the dimensions of the stone's Length, Width or Depth (although if a stone were not cut evenly around the perimeter or not cut with equal angles, perhaps that would affect the symmetry grade (?). Someone please chime in and tell us if that's true!)

A stone could have the same Length x Width and Depth as my stone but only be graded "Good" or, conversely, be graded "Excellent" for Symmetry. To my best understanding, the Symmetry grade refers to the internal cut and balance of the stone. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Matthews1127]

Hi,

Hi, Chl! Thanks for your question! I'll try to answer as best I can.

The length of my stone is 12.85mm, the width is 9.92mm. My EC is 6.59 ct. which refers to it's Carat Weight, which has no bearing on the stone's Symmetry grade.

GIA graded my EC "Very Good" which refers to the CUT ( meaning that the stone is very symmetrical) and is considered to be a high grade in that category.

The Symmetry grade has nothing to do with the dimensions of the stone's Length, Width or Depth (although if a stone were not cut evenly around the perimeter or not cut with equal angles, perhaps that would affect the symmetry grade (?). Someone please chime in and tell us if that's true!)

A stone could have the same Length x Width and Depth as my stone but only be graded "Good" or, conversely, be graded "Excellent" for Symmetry. To my best understanding, the Symmetry grade refers to the internal cut and balance of the stone. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

This is correct. Symmetry refers to the even-ness/balance of the angles in order to create optimal performance of a diamond. All diamonds are graded on symmetry, but for a step cut diamond, symmetry is extremely important. Balancing the facets in a step cut is what makes those beautiful flashes, and keeps the stone lively. Poor symmetry will leave dead steps or dead centers in a step cut, which is why all of these angles (crown, pavilion) and percentages are so important.

 

[Matthews1127]

@Karl_K was gracious to share this with me.
Please take the time to read this article, as it was extremely helpful to me, as I was yearning to learn more about my favorite cut diamonds: Step Cuts.

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/performance-and-p3-facets-discussion-about-step-cut-diamonds

 

[Karl_K]

Lab graded symmetry refers to how well the facets meet each other and how well they intersect physically with each other.
It does not refer to how they optically align.
A diamond could be Good lab symmetry and still have excellent optical symmetry and the reverse is also true.
Many 1920s step cuts are stunning looking but with good polish or symmetry or both.

 

[Karl_K]

With the older cuts the lab Good grade for symmetry and or polish often came from cutting the pavilion windmill facets due to the way they are positioned on the rough.
This had little to no impact on the face up appearance.
Modern tooling should not have as much issue with that which is why vg/vg is more expected these days.
However hand inspected to make sure its not an issue I would consider a lower grade with newer production.
It comes down to where and how much if the rest of the stone is great.
The right angles and placement of the facets make for a beautiful diamond.

 

[Matthews1127]

With the older cuts the lab Good grade for symmetry and or polish often came from cutting the pavilion windmill facets due to the way they are positioned on the rough.
This had little to no impact on the face up appearance.
Modern tooling should not have as much issue with that which is why vg/vg is more expected these days.
However hand inspected to make sure its not an issue I would consider a lower grade with newer production.
It comes down to where and how much if the rest of the stone is great.
The right angles and placement of the facets make for a beautiful diamond.

Ok, so I have to pose the question: if symmetry is how well the facets and angles intersect, is it fair to say that placement & angle of facets contribute to symmetry?

 

[Karl_K]

Ok, so I have to pose the question: if symmetry is how well the facets and angles intersect, is it fair to say that placement & angle of facets contribute to symmetry?

Of course :}
But it does not mean that they are at angles or placement that result in a great looking diamond.
They can be perfectly physically aligned but not at the right angles and placement for a great looking diamond.

 

[Matthews1127]

Of course :}
But it does not mean that they are at angles or placement that result in a great looking diamond.
They can be perfectly physically aligned but not at the right angles and placement for a great looking diamond.

Awesome!! Thank you for the clarification! So, I must say this made my day! My EC has G/G Sym/Polish, and it has BAFFLED me! Now, I understand why!!

 

[chl]

I am out of town right now but I will try look at prices tonight.

I think I’d rather have an E color HW ring at 6 cts than a no name I color 8 ct. but it is definitely possible that I might find an F-G-H Emerald cut stone that I like. But I love that whole HW ring and the center stone. But if you want closer to $200k, I think we need to look some more. I haven’t had a chance to look at all the stones posted today yet.

Hi dear,

The I color 8 ct is also a HW ring however, it is from the 70s. From my understanding HW only offers D-F color diamonds, I don't know about old HW colors tho.

I would love to post some videos I received of the 6ct for you fellow members here to see. let me figure it out tonight.
Thank you!!!

 

[chl]

Hi dear,

The I color 8 ct is also a HW ring however, it is from the 70s. From my understanding HW only offers D-F color diamonds, I don't know about old HW colors tho.

I would love to post some videos I received of the 6ct for you fellow members here to see. let me figure it out tonight.
Thank you!!!

PS the "I" color 8ct HW is priced more reasonably than the 6ct E color. I believe despite the difference in carat weight, the color differences made a huge difference in pricing too!

 

[chl]

Hi all

How does one get started on ASET testing?
If the stone is already mounted on a ring at a store ?

Thank you !

 

[Matthews1127]

Hi all

How does one get started on ASET testing?
If the stone is already mounted on a ring at a store ?

Thank you !

I am also curious about this; I’m learning more about doing this, myself. If I’m not mistaken, the stone has to be removed, in order to do the ASET, but that may not be the case.
Following....

 

[OoohShiny]

Hi all

How does one get started on ASET testing?
If the stone is already mounted on a ring at a store ?

Thank you !

I am also curious about this; I’m learning more about doing this, myself. If I’m not mistaken, the stone has to be removed, in order to do the ASET, but that may not be the case.
Following....

I might be completely wrong here! but I think it is still possible to use an ASETscope on a mounted diamond - in my head, if light is blocked from coming through from the back, it's no different to having a 'black background' ASET image?

A white background (or unmounted stone) would better enable leakage detection, but I think the mounted/black background view would still be helpful

 

[Karl_K]

ASET is 100% capable of being used on a mounted diamond, they are not as pretty as doing them loose in Dibox or other setup, but they can be informative.
Viewing them mounted in ASET in person is in some cases easier than with a loose stone.
Getting an ASET picture on the other hand is harder.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Hi dear,

The I color 8 ct is also a HW ring however, it is from the 70s. From my understanding HW only offers D-F color diamonds, I don't know about old HW colors tho.

I would love to post some videos I received of the 6ct for you fellow members here to see. let me figure it out tonight.
Thank you!!!

Ohhhh, that's different if the 8 ct stone is HW, also. But I would have to have some proof that the diamond is the original due to the color, such as the original HW sales receipt showing that the original diamond was this one, or a current HW evaluation that attests to it's authenticity. I know Tiffany goes down to I color, but I would not know the history of HW and color, either. But if both are authenticated, I would say I would be thrilled with either one! The 6 ct is appealing due to the color, and the 8 ct would be preferred for one who values larger size. Both diamonds look beautiful to me. I'd choose the one I think I'd like the most, and order it to look at (or go to see it) as long as there is an unconditional return policy.

I'd love to see the video, but unfortunately I don't know how to post them, either!

 

[chl]

Ohhhh, that's different if the 8 ct stone is HW, also. But I would have to have some proof that the diamond is the original due to the color, such as the original HW sales receipt showing that the original diamond was this one, or a current HW evaluation that attests to it's authenticity. I know Tiffany goes down to I color, but I would not know the history of HW and color, either. But if both are authenticated, I would say I would be thrilled with either one! The 6 ct is appealing due to the color, and the 8 ct would be preferred for one who values larger size. Both diamonds look beautiful to me. I'd choose the one I think I'd like the most, and order it to look at (or go to see it) as long as there is an unconditional return policy.

I'd love to see the video, but unfortunately I don't know how to post them, either!

There is only a GIA for the 8ct. I think it would be difficult to even have it appraised and proofed by HW now...You're right its hard to know whether a lotto changes have been done and the many owners it might've gone through. There is no HW sales receipt or a current HW evaluation, just the GiA.
Also note the band has a hinge which makes me believe its been brought to a 3rd party for alterations/resize etc.

Nope to unconditional return policy. Do stores even do that? I have never heard of that.

I would love to show you and the rest of the people here as I have videos of both now!!

anyway we can get each others contact? this is so frustrating! haha

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am on Loupetroop.com with the same user name. In one of my listings, you will see my contact info. Don't use loupetroop messaging, though, because it is unreliable.

Many of our diamond vendors offer return policies of various lengths for loose diamonds and non-custom settings. They range from a couple of weeks to 30 days. If a jeweler wants to sell over the internet, the only way people can see a ring is to order it to look at. Although, I suppose the shipping and insurance on a $300k ring might be costly and it might make sense to just fly to see the most likely choice. I realize that would be complicated if a ring is in another country!

 

[chl]

I am on Loupetroop.com with the same user name. In one of my listings, you will see my contact info. Don't use loupetroop messaging, though, because it is unreliable.

Many of our diamond vendors offer return policies of various lengths for loose diamonds and non-custom settings. They range from a couple of weeks to 30 days. If a jeweler wants to sell over the internet, the only way people can see a ring is to order it to look at. Although, I suppose the shipping and insurance on a $300k ring might be costly and it might make sense to just fly to see the most likely choice. I realize that would be complicated if a ring is in another country!

Hi diamond seeker I sent you an email via gmail!

 

[OoohShiny]

I've been off-board for a few days - any update?