EGL Israel says "Falsely Accused" by JAA

[John P]

Full Story: http://www.idexonline.com/start.asp?purl=portal_FullNews%2easp%3fid%3d31092


JAA sent an industry alert to all its members in late August citing EGL International as the main laboratory issuing certificates that overstated color and clarity by more than one grading difference and naming EGL International’s Israeli laboratory as the primary source of the overstated certificates.

“There are a number of EGL laboratories located around the world and it would appear that the EGL facility in Israel is the primary source of the over stated certificates,” the JAA said in a statement, noting that all EGL certificates should be treated with the greatest care as they do not appear to list the address of the EGL facility that produced the certificate... (story continues)>>


A couple of other threads related to the topic:

Indian Government creates diamond standards
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/indian-government-creates-diamond-standards.86010/

International diamond grading standards to be established?
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/international-diamond-grading-standards-to-be-established.87885/

 

[sarah95]

Interesting! Thanks for posting.

 

[strmrdr]

Bout time someone shined a flashlight on the rats nest on a large scale.

 

[purrfectpear]

Grabs popcorn and takes a great seat....................

 

[:)]

Way to go JAA! I am glad to see EGL Israel publically called out on their practices. It is unfair to consumers that end up overpaying, purchasing based on an incorrect grading report.


Joining Purrfect..

 

[dbsdiamonds]

I''ve been denouncing EGL for years. Every customer who has ever called asking about EGL I''ve told them the skinny. If they choose to ignore then that is their option from there.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-are-your-thoughts-on-egl-usa-los-angeles-certs-are-tey-reliable.93353/

I think this thread says it all, especially if this topic keeps coming up. It''s not just EGL Israel. Funny thing is I''ve seen EGL Israel certs and actually felt they were the tighter of the group.

Of course I''m not viewing 10''s or 100''s of stones in a study, it''s a case by case basis.... but BUYER BEWARE...

Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com

 

[ButterBean]

Date: 9/3/2008 4:20:45 PM
Author:
Way to go JAA! I am glad to see EGL Israel publically called out on their practices. It is unfair to consumers that end up overpaying, purchasing based on an incorrect grading report.


Joining Purrfect..

I second that.

And where on earth do you find such SWEET emotis?? He''s so cute - I love it (and popcorn.)
BB

 

[LaurenThePartier]

This is so incredibly timely as I have a colleague who purchased a diamond which is still under the return period.

He thinks he has an F VVS1 EGL Israel diamond and it''s clearly not an F, nor a VVS stone - thanks for posting this, John.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Maybe Garry can comment from down under about the reliability of the JAA.

What I found very interesting to read, was the following note: "The JAA also said that there were other diamonds accompanied by certificates of the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) offered on the Internet that were over graded. It noted that Australia and other countries were used by some dealers to dump GIA graded stones that were over graded in error."
It proves a point that I already observed in the Antwerp-market. Cutters who have their stones graded by GIA, generally have a number of solid customers (wholesalers, retailers, ...) in the U.S. They will generally try to supply these regular customers with good product. When a stone got a ''lucky grade'' from GIA, they will generally not send it to their regular customers, since these will find this hard to sell. As a result, on the Antwerp market, the majority of GIA-graded stones that I have seen, are lacking in quality in some respect. This does not mean that GIA''s grading is not reliable. It means that one needs to be careful when one is buying in the less obvious market.

Live long,

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/4/2008 5:40:44 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Maybe Garry can comment from down under about the reliability of the JAA.

What I found very interesting to read, was the following note: ''The JAA also said that there were other diamonds accompanied by certificates of the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) offered on the Internet that were over graded. It noted that Australia and other countries were used by some dealers to dump GIA graded stones that were over graded in error.''

It proves a point that I already observed in the Antwerp-market. Cutters who have their stones graded by GIA, generally have a number of solid customers (wholesalers, retailers, ...) in the U.S. They will generally try to supply these regular customers with good product. When a stone got a ''lucky grade'' from GIA, they will generally not send it to their regular customers, since these will find this hard to sell. As a result, on the Antwerp market, the majority of GIA-graded stones that I have seen, are lacking in quality in some respect. This does not mean that GIA''s grading is not reliable. It means that one needs to be careful when one is buying in the less obvious market.

Live long,

Agree..., it would be interesting to hear who JAA are?

In regards to the GIA comment..., "over graded" by who''s opinion? Maybe under graded??
I have been noticing a "slight" problem with the GIA grading consistency lately...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/4/2008 5:40:44 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Maybe Garry can comment from down under about the reliability of the JAA.

What I found very interesting to read, was the following note: ''The JAA also said that there were other diamonds accompanied by certificates of the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) offered on the Internet that were over graded. It noted that Australia and other countries were used by some dealers to dump GIA graded stones that were over graded in error.''

It proves a point that I already observed in the Antwerp-market. Cutters who have their stones graded by GIA, generally have a number of solid customers (wholesalers, retailers, ...) in the U.S. They will generally try to supply these regular customers with good product. When a stone got a ''lucky grade'' from GIA, they will generally not send it to their regular customers, since these will find this hard to sell. As a result, on the Antwerp market, the majority of GIA-graded stones that I have seen, are lacking in quality in some respect. This does not mean that GIA''s grading is not reliable. It means that one needs to be careful when one is buying in the less obvious market.

Live long,

Paul it is true that our market is naive and a good dumping ground.
There are still jewellers who are watchmakers first. And many who are bench people - all good people and well meaning, but not up to par with ice.
Remember that Australia was like Britian outside of London up until a decade or 2 ago. Now we have a much higher living standard and have overcome much of our ''tall poppoy syndrome''; it is OK to wear a 2ct diamond every day, and sit in a luxurious cafe sipping cappachino and chardy. But with little diamond experiance consumers are at risk.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/3/2008 4:43:40 PM
Author: dbsdiamonds
I''ve been denouncing EGL for years. Every customer who has ever called asking about EGL I''ve told them the skinny. If they choose to ignore then that is their option from there.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-are-your-thoughts-on-egl-usa-los-angeles-certs-are-tey-reliable.93353/

I think this thread says it all, especially if this topic keeps coming up. It''s not just EGL Israel. Funny thing is I''ve seen EGL Israel certs and actually felt they were the tighter of the group.

Of course I''m not viewing 10''s or 100''s of stones in a study, it''s a case by case basis.... but BUYER BEWARE...

Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com

DBS see if you can find a School 4 How 2 Blog.
You have no idea how self serving you appear to be and how much damage you can be doing to your self and your business.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

JAA = jewellers assoc of Oz
They are a well meaning toothless tiger trying to get more engaged.
I am a member and support them fully, but there is a long history of battles between gemo''s, Valuers (read appraisers) and other industry groups. I am part of them all and wish they would focus on 1 thing - consumer confidence.

At the GIA 2006 Symposium I made this poster presentation - there are some pscope video interviews somewhere made on the sopot.
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/42/1/Diamond-Grading-Labs-%e2%80%93-A-Plan-for-Peer-Review.aspx

The man from Israel EGL who doth complian so loudly - Mr Guy - came and debated the issue with the stone they over graded to hell. The stone is what it is - it is a dog.

Sue me too Guy!

Sue everyone here who said nasty lies about your lab. We know you are reading this Guy.

 

[diagem]

Date: 9/4/2008 6:16:08 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
JAA = jewellers assoc of Oz
They are a well meaning toothless tiger trying to get more engaged.
I am a member and support them fully, but there is a long history of battles between gemo''s, Valuers (read appraisers) and other industry groups. I am part of them all and wish they would focus on 1 thing - consumer confidence.

At the GIA 2006 Symposium I made this poster presentation - there are some pscope video interviews somewhere made on the sopot.
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/42/1/Diamond-Grading-Labs-%e2%80%93-A-Plan-for-Peer-Review.aspx

The man from Israel EGL who doth complian so loudly - Mr Guy - came and debated the issue with the stone they over graded to hell. The stone is what it is - it is a dog.

Sue me too Guy!

Sue everyone here who said nasty lies about your lab. We know you are reading this Guy.

Hey..., you sound mad Garry...

But I do agree that they do more damage than good..., to themselves and the industry as one....

 

[BKDJ]

I've heard about this as well. But from personal experiance, I have bought several stones at the Israeli Boursa with EGL's. When I resold them, the customers requested GIA or AGS certs which I then had to send in the stones to get certified, in all cases they matched my israeli EGLs and in a case or two, the % distribution (cut) was a higher grade when marked by GIA...

 

[elle_chris]

Falsely accused my a$$.
When I was looking for a stone , I went to 47th street (nyc) just to get a good idea of a size I''d be comfortable with.
8/10 stores kept pushing EGL stones on me. When I insisted on only seeing GIA or AGS (yeah right, i think one store had 2 AGS stones) they all warned me that they were more expensive. So i asked why. The response I most commonly heard was it takes longer and costs more for their reports. Oh really? GIA''s report costs THOUSANDS more for the same color and clarity grade?? I''m not confrontational so just kind of nodded my head and moved on. Only one place was honest about the grading differences (wish I could remember who they were).
Apparently jewelers know exactly why EGL stones trade for less than GIA stones of the same color/clarity. Why not just be honest about their softer grading instead of pretty much lying to consumers and swearing up and down they we got a deal.
Leave it up to us to decide if we''re comfortable with the EGL grade.

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 9/4/2008 6:08:58 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 9/3/2008 4:43:40 PM
Author: dbsdiamonds
I''ve been denouncing EGL for years. Every customer who has ever called asking about EGL I''ve told them the skinny. If they choose to ignore then that is their option from there.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-are-your-thoughts-on-egl-usa-los-angeles-certs-are-tey-reliable.93353/

I think this thread says it all, especially if this topic keeps coming up. It''s not just EGL Israel. Funny thing is I''ve seen EGL Israel certs and actually felt they were the tighter of the group.

Of course I''m not viewing 10''s or 100''s of stones in a study, it''s a case by case basis.... but BUYER BEWARE...

Marty
CEO/Pres
Diamond Brokerage Service, Inc
www.dbsdiamonds.com

DBS see if you can find a School 4 How 2 Blog.
You have no idea how self serving you appear to be and how much damage you can be doing to your self and your business.

No kidding. Don''t underestimate the discernment of the consumer. It''s quite obvious which vendors are here for promotion, and which are here to contribute to the knowledge base.

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 9/4/2008 5:40:44 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Maybe Garry can comment from down under about the reliability of the JAA.

What I found very interesting to read, was the following note: ''The JAA also said that there were other diamonds accompanied by certificates of the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) offered on the Internet that were over graded. It noted that Australia and other countries were used by some dealers to dump GIA graded stones that were over graded in error.''

It proves a point that I already observed in the Antwerp-market. Cutters who have their stones graded by GIA, generally have a number of solid customers (wholesalers, retailers, ...) in the U.S. They will generally try to supply these regular customers with good product. When a stone got a ''lucky grade'' from GIA, they will generally not send it to their regular customers, since these will find this hard to sell. As a result, on the Antwerp market, the majority of GIA-graded stones that I have seen, are lacking in quality in some respect. This does not mean that GIA''s grading is not reliable. It means that one needs to be careful when one is buying in the less obvious market.

Live long,

Paul, does anyone have an idea of the percentage of "lucky graded diamonds" which have been overgraded by GIA? Reliability is questionable if these are more than just a very rare anomaly, no?

 

[BKDJ]

Date: 9/4/2008 8:46:14 AM
Author: elle_chris
Falsely accused my a$$.

When I was looking for a stone , I went to 47th street (nyc) just to get a good idea of a size I''d be comfortable with.

8/10 stores kept pushing EGL stones on me. When I insisted on only seeing GIA or AGS (yeah right, i think one store had 2 AGS stones) they all warned me that they were more expensive. So i asked why. The response I most commonly heard was it takes longer and costs more for their reports. Oh really? GIA''s report costs THOUSANDS more for the same color and clarity grade?? I''m not confrontational so just kind of nodded my head and moved on. Only one place was honest about the grading differences (wish I could remember who they were).

Apparently jewelers know exactly why EGL stones trade for less than GIA stones of the same color/clarity. Why not just be honest about their softer grading instead of pretty much lying to consumers and swearing up and down they we got a deal.

Leave it up to us to decide if we''re comfortable with the EGL grade.

Its true that the reports cost a few hundred dollars, but thats not the main problem.... the problem is that it can take anywhere from 2 to 6 months to grade the diamond! So its VERY TIME CONSUMING... Which means that in the long run, it raises the cost significantly.

Hope this helps,
Anthony

 

[Dee*Jay]

Date: 9/4/2008 9:23:29 AM
Author: BKDJ

Date: 9/4/2008 8:46:14 AM
Author: elle_chris
Falsely accused my a$$.

When I was looking for a stone , I went to 47th street (nyc) just to get a good idea of a size I'd be comfortable with.

8/10 stores kept pushing EGL stones on me. When I insisted on only seeing GIA or AGS (yeah right, i think one store had 2 AGS stones) they all warned me that they were more expensive. So i asked why. The response I most commonly heard was it takes longer and costs more for their reports. Oh really? GIA's report costs THOUSANDS more for the same color and clarity grade?? I'm not confrontational so just kind of nodded my head and moved on. Only one place was honest about the grading differences (wish I could remember who they were).

Apparently jewelers know exactly why EGL stones trade for less than GIA stones of the same color/clarity. Why not just be honest about their softer grading instead of pretty much lying to consumers and swearing up and down they we got a deal.

Leave it up to us to decide if we're comfortable with the EGL grade.

Its true that the reports cost a few hundred dollars, but thats not the main problem.... the problem is that it can take anywhere from 2 to 6 months to grade the diamond! So its VERY TIME CONSUMING... Which means that in the long run, it raises the cost significantly.

Hope this helps,
Anthony

If I understand your post correctly, you're saying when you send a stone off to GIA or AGS you don't get it back for up to 6 months? I don't think that's the case...

 

[BKDJ]

Date: 9/4/2008 9:40:12 AM
Author: Dee*Jay

Date: 9/4/2008 9:23:29 AM

Author: BKDJ

Date: 9/4/2008 8:46:14 AM

Author: elle_chris

Falsely accused my a$$.


When I was looking for a stone , I went to 47th street (nyc) just to get a good idea of a size I''d be comfortable with.


8/10 stores kept pushing EGL stones on me. When I insisted on only seeing GIA or AGS (yeah right, i think one store had 2 AGS stones) they all warned me that they were more expensive. So i asked why. The response I most commonly heard was it takes longer and costs more for their reports. Oh really? GIA''s report costs THOUSANDS more for the same color and clarity grade?? I''m not confrontational so just kind of nodded my head and moved on. Only one place was honest about the grading differences (wish I could remember who they were).


Apparently jewelers know exactly why EGL stones trade for less than GIA stones of the same color/clarity. Why not just be honest about their softer grading instead of pretty much lying to consumers and swearing up and down they we got a deal.


Leave it up to us to decide if we''re comfortable with the EGL grade.

Its true that the reports cost a few hundred dollars, but thats not the main problem.... the problem is that it can take anywhere from 2 to 6 months to grade the diamond! So its VERY TIME CONSUMING... Which means that in the long run, it raises the cost significantly.


Hope this helps,

Anthony

If I understand your post correctly, you''re saying when you send a stone off to GIA or AGS you don''t get it back for up to 6 months? I don''t think that''s the case...

Well... That is the case. give them a call
I have had stones returned to me as fast as 2 months, and as slow as 6 months. I guess you can average it out at 4 months.

Again, this is from experience, not an hypothesis.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Date: 9/4/2008 9:45:51 AM
Author: BKDJ

Date: 9/4/2008 9:40:12 AM
Author: Dee*Jay

Date: 9/4/2008 9:23:29 AM

Author: BKDJ

Date: 9/4/2008 8:46:14 AM

Author: elle_chris

Falsely accused my a$$.


When I was looking for a stone , I went to 47th street (nyc) just to get a good idea of a size I''d be comfortable with.


8/10 stores kept pushing EGL stones on me. When I insisted on only seeing GIA or AGS (yeah right, i think one store had 2 AGS stones) they all warned me that they were more expensive. So i asked why. The response I most commonly heard was it takes longer and costs more for their reports. Oh really? GIA''s report costs THOUSANDS more for the same color and clarity grade?? I''m not confrontational so just kind of nodded my head and moved on. Only one place was honest about the grading differences (wish I could remember who they were).


Apparently jewelers know exactly why EGL stones trade for less than GIA stones of the same color/clarity. Why not just be honest about their softer grading instead of pretty much lying to consumers and swearing up and down they we got a deal.


Leave it up to us to decide if we''re comfortable with the EGL grade.

Its true that the reports cost a few hundred dollars, but thats not the main problem.... the problem is that it can take anywhere from 2 to 6 months to grade the diamond! So its VERY TIME CONSUMING... Which means that in the long run, it raises the cost significantly.


Hope this helps,

Anthony

If I understand your post correctly, you''re saying when you send a stone off to GIA or AGS you don''t get it back for up to 6 months? I don''t think that''s the case...

Well... That is the case. give them a call
I have had stones returned to me as fast as 2 months, and as slow as 6 months. I guess you can average it out at 4 months.

Again, this is from experience, not an hypothesis.

Interesting. My impression was that it usually took about 4-6 weeks (and sometimes less). Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 9/4/2008 5:40:44 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Maybe Garry can comment from down under about the reliability of the JAA.

What I found very interesting to read, was the following note: ''The JAA also said that there were other diamonds accompanied by certificates of the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) offered on the Internet that were over graded. It noted that Australia and other countries were used by some dealers to dump GIA graded stones that were over graded in error.''

It proves a point that I already observed in the Antwerp-market. Cutters who have their stones graded by GIA, generally have a number of solid customers (wholesalers, retailers, ...) in the U.S. They will generally try to supply these regular customers with good product. When a stone got a ''lucky grade'' from GIA, they will generally not send it to their regular customers, since these will find this hard to sell. As a result, on the Antwerp market, the majority of GIA-graded stones that I have seen, are lacking in quality in some respect. This does not mean that GIA''s grading is not reliable. It means that one needs to be careful when one is buying in the less obvious market.

Live long,

I would not be surprised by this at all. From my experience of browsing the retail here, it is mainly EGL and other less-than-trusted labs'' stones, even in the Very high end stores.
Many vendors have not heard of GIA (I know), and some who otherwise seem well informed have a bad impression of them. At least now I understand why !
And don''t even start on the view on AGS ..

 

[strmrdr]

GIA publishes the average turn around time on their website on a weekly basis.
They have been getting better.
http://www.gia.edu/gemtradelab/35565/turnaround_time.cfm

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/4/2008 11:34:30 AM
Author: strmrdr
GIA publishes the average turn around time on their website on a weekly basis.

They have been getting better.

http://www.gia.edu/gemtradelab/35565/turnaround_time.cfm

another link with actual turn around times for different labs.


http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullMazalUbracha.asp?id=30660

 

[elle_chris]

I''m a little confused- based on what BKDJ has said, it''s anywhere between 2-6 months and if that''s the case, i can understand the significant price increas for GIA graded stones (that in itself makes me question certain things) . Based on the link that Storm provided it shows 15 days at most. That''s a huge discrepancy and wouldn''t account for the cost difference between stones graded by EGL vs GIA. So which is it?

 

[jewelerman]

EGL-Israel needs to be called out... ive had differance of professional opinion when it comes to their grading.

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 9/4/2008 11:41:47 AM
Author: strmrdr

another link with actual turn around times for different labs.


http://www.idexonline.com/portal_FullMazalUbracha.asp?id=30660

Thanks for the link, Storm. Funny though, the quote "We are not disclosing which results came from which lab"- but looking at the results, you can pretty much figure out who gave the grades. You''d think they''d mix it around a bit if they didn''t want you to know.
Then again maybe I shouldn''t assume they didn''t mix it up. Who knows, EGL may have been the strictest.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/4/2008 9:45:51 AM
Author: BKDJ

Date: 9/4/2008 9:40:12 AM
Author: Dee*Jay

Date: 9/4/2008 9:23:29 AM

Author: BKDJ

Date: 9/4/2008 8:46:14 AM

Author: elle_chris

Falsely accused my a$$.


When I was looking for a stone , I went to 47th street (nyc) just to get a good idea of a size I''d be comfortable with.


8/10 stores kept pushing EGL stones on me. When I insisted on only seeing GIA or AGS (yeah right, i think one store had 2 AGS stones) they all warned me that they were more expensive. So i asked why. The response I most commonly heard was it takes longer and costs more for their reports. Oh really? GIA''s report costs THOUSANDS more for the same color and clarity grade?? I''m not confrontational so just kind of nodded my head and moved on. Only one place was honest about the grading differences (wish I could remember who they were).


Apparently jewelers know exactly why EGL stones trade for less than GIA stones of the same color/clarity. Why not just be honest about their softer grading instead of pretty much lying to consumers and swearing up and down they we got a deal.


Leave it up to us to decide if we''re comfortable with the EGL grade.

Its true that the reports cost a few hundred dollars, but thats not the main problem.... the problem is that it can take anywhere from 2 to 6 months to grade the diamond! So its VERY TIME CONSUMING... Which means that in the long run, it raises the cost significantly.


Hope this helps,

Anthony

If I understand your post correctly, you''re saying when you send a stone off to GIA or AGS you don''t get it back for up to 6 months? I don''t think that''s the case...

Well... That is the case. give them a call
I have had stones returned to me as fast as 2 months, and as slow as 6 months. I guess you can average it out at 4 months.

Again, this is from experience, not an hypothesis.

You know it is not that bad anymore.
We have had stones in and out and back to australia withing 10 days including shipping.
And the charges are a small fraction of your indication for colourless stones.

I do my share of gIA bashing, but I need to ask what your motif is to support EGL israel and bash GIA BKDJ?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

AGS takes 5 working days.

GIA, in its slowest period, could take up to 5 weeks, but now apparently is around 2 weeks.

If you did not pay your previous bill, of course, I imagine that it could take up to 6 months before you get your stones back

.