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EGL and TolKowsky ideal cut

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simonnessen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2003
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13
Still trying to figure out if I should buy this stone tomorrow, its an EGL new york stone with Tolkowsky ideal cut on the girdle and cert. Its priced at 10,200$, no tax or labor. There is some questionable things about this stone, and I wonder how it still rates ideal, the store owner says its a AGS O cut stone. Is it a good deal?

2.02 ct
8.15-8.04 x 4.95
61.1% depth
58% table
crown hgt 14%
pav. depth 44%
girdle slt. thick, fac.
pol/sym very good
culet none
flur none
SI2 H color (by colorimeter)

Somethings that bother me are the variance of the measurements, as well as the stone has two extra facets on the pavillion. It looks incredible, and its in my price range, I just need to know if its priced reasonably. Thanks.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
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Still trying to figure out if I should buy this stone tomorrow, its an EGL new york stone
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EGL-NY is a decent lab.

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with Tolkowsky ideal cut on the girdle and cert.
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Interesting. The figures I have for the Tolkowski cut show this stone having a crown height .2% too low and pavilion depth .2% too high. The description underneath the Tolkowski profile says that stones labeled by the EGL as Tolkowski cuts fall "within tolerance of the proportions proposed by Marcel Tolkowski". I guess there's a small amount of leeway there.

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There is some questionable things about this stone, and I wonder how it still rates ideal, the
store owner says its a AGS O cut stone.
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Although it is a very fine make, it falls outside the AGS 0 ranking on three counts: The table, the crown height and the pavilion depth all fall very slightly outside the 0 ranking. This stone would be an AGS 1, which is still a very fine cut.

2.02 ct
8.15-8.04 x 4.95
61.1% depth
58% table
crown hgt 14%
pav. depth 44%
girdle slt. thick, fac.
pol/sym very good
culet none
flur none
SI2 H color (by colorimeter)

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Somethings that bother me are the variance of the measurements,
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I don't feel the girdle variance (if that's what you're referring to) is a problem.

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as well as the stone has two extra facets on the pavillion.
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I wouldn't be bothered too much by this if they are small and unobtrusive.

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It looks incredible
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NOW you're talkin. That's where the rubber meets the road. The visual...

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and its in my price range,
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Always nice.

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I just need to know if its priced reasonably ($10,200, no tax).
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Yes, that is a very reasonable price, IF the stone is graded correctly. The big thing you want to be sure of here is whether the stone is truly an SI2, versus an I1. If it happens to be an overgraded I1 (it happens), then the price goes from being reasonable to being significantly overpriced.

If you make the sale contingent upon the diamond appraising out to your satisfaction with an independent appaiser, you can't lose.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Here's one POSSIBLE DiamCalc computer generated profile on the cut, along with a POSSIBLE simulated IdealScope image. Basically great stats, except for the moderate leakage under the table. That's whats pushing the HCA score down.

Light Return Mono…….....Very Good 1.01
Light Return Stereo……….Very Good 1.00
(Non) Leakage Mono……...Very Good to Good 0.94
(Non) Leakage Stereo…….Good to Very Good 0.85
Contrast………….......…....Very Good 0.91
(Non) Fisheye Effect……..Very Good 1.00

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IdealScope- In general, the darker pink areas indicate areas of greater light return, with the lighter pink areas indicating areas of lesser light return. The black areas indicate areas of greater contrast, with the gray areas indicating areas of lesser contrast. The white areas indicate areas of light leakage. A good explanation of the IdealScope image along with examples can be found at https://www.pricescope.com/idealscope_indx.asp

Disclaimer- The facet arrangement and symmetry of the image will probably vary from your actual diamond, which may affect the light performance indicated. The image shown has perfect symmetry, which is rare, and the star facet/lower girdle facet lengths may vary from your diamond. The computer simulation is reproduced best when the actual diamond is being viewed and the image "tweaked" to the appearance of the diamond, or when the Sarin data is downloaded directly into the program. However, this "blind" reproduction should be helpful in indicating the major light performance aspects.
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2.02 RBC- Simon.jpg
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Hi Simon,

How are you?
I'm sorry, but I don't think it's an EGL NY stone for a few reasons: first, the 'tolkowsky ideal' is used only by EGL Israel (EGL NY writes 'ideal cut' or 'ideal cut plus'), second it looks like all percentages are rounded, and EGL Israel does this, third, the girdle thickness seems to be the average, and EGL Israel lists the girdle in this way...
Also, I've seen a lot of EGL Israel stones with very good or even excellent symmetry with some extra facets... For what I understand, and according to an EGL table, a Tolkowsky Ideal cut must have very good symmetry, so if a stone has the right proportions (tab 53-58, cr 14-16, pav 42-44) and the finish is not that bad, they simply put very good as symmetry grade. Is the cert white or bluish??
Now, if you say that the stone looks incredible and the price is right, I think it's worth a try... Just make sure it's correctly graded and bring it to an appraiser... As Rich stated, the cut is nice... What about the clarity?? Can you see inclusions with your naked eye?

Giangi
 

simonnessen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2003
Messages
13
Thanks Rich, and Giangi for the helpful posts, the cert is dark blue laminated. The variance I spoke of was on the measurements 8.04 - 8.15, and the stone looks eye clean. The ideal scope picture you sent me looks like it has alot of light leakage. The tutorial on this site seems like a stone with that picture should be rejected. I will take it to an independent appraiser, I just dont know who, or how. I live in the Charlotte, NC area. Thanks again.

Simon
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Can you tell me the cert number or at least the first figures??
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,144
----------------
On 4/5/2003 8:26:15 AM simonnessen wrote:

cert number- 2210416319
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Hi, Simon: The cert number shows that this stone IS, as Giangi suspected, an EGL Israel stone.

EGL Israel is known to be extremely lenient in their grading.....so it is very likely that this stone graded more favorably than it should be. That may mean, as Rich mentioned, that the stone is truly an I1, in which case he mentioned it would be very overpriced.

Rich is right, though....what your eyes tell you is the most important thing. If I were in your shoes, though, I think I'd pass on this stone.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Hey Giangi, Aljdewey, if you don't mind my asking, could you share the numbering prefixes that the different EGL labs use, along with any other tips for distinguishing between the various labs? That's really handy information.

Used to be, they would just plainly state it on their certs, and you could consider the source in judging their grading.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
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The ideal scope picture you sent me looks like it has alot of light
leakage. The tutorial on this site seems like a stone with that
picture should be rejected.
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Simon, I wouldn't call the amount of leakage shown "a lot". It's actually a moderate amount, and the stone should be quite good looking.

Bear in mind that the tutorial shows you the highest possible ideal, and gradations from thereof. That highest ideal you could liken to Miss Universe, and then the gradations various different women of extraordinary beauty, with some aspect of "non-perfectness" that would knock them out of the running for the title, yet you would never kick them out of bed.

All that said, I would be sure and have any EGL-Israel certed stone double checked by an independent appraiser. I've yet to see an EGL-Israel stone that I agreed on the grading with.

There's a list of recommended appraisers on this site. If you can't find one locally, you could always request the jeweler send it out to an appraiser of your choice. If fedex is used, the turn-around time could be as little as 3 or 4 days.
 

simonnessen

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2003
Messages
13
Thanks Rich, and Giangi, you guys are so helpful, I bought the stone today, but!!, only on a 90 day contingincy, as I had it shipped to Martain Fuller, who will apraise the stone and is located near my hometown, that way my father can go and talk with him, and pick up the stone. The store owner was not happy about the contingincy, but said "Ill state my reputation on the stone that it is a H and an S12. The only visible inclusion is a tiny feather which is on the pavillion, it cannot be seen from the face, and you have to really strain to see it from the bottom, its tiny, thats the only real inclusion except 2 tiny pinpoints on the crown, Hopefully it appraises good, or Ill try again. Thanks Simon
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
NICE analogy Rich...comparing cuts of diamonds to the degrees of beautiful sleepworthy women. Spoken like a true MAN. Thought you could sneak this by us did you?!
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
These we go, Rich:
(These are from about 1999 to now...)

Antwerp: AO, AP, AQ, AR, AS and at the moment we're at AT + 6/7 figures (the first one or two are the month... eg AS 2xxxxx was issued on february, while AS 12xxxxx was issued on december...)... The cert is white and NOT laminated

Israel: starts with 2000, 21, 22, 23... I think it has 10 digit... The cert is blue and laminated

USA-NY: older ones start with NA AN, while newer ones start with 18/19/2... LA and NY certs have the same look --the common EGL USA cert--

USA-LA: Starts with 7

EGL Johannesburg (very unusual): starts with SA
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
There's also EGL London, but I haven't ever seen their certs...
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
NICE analogy Rich...comparing cuts of diamonds to the degrees of
beautiful sleepworthy women. Spoken like a true MAN. Thought you could
sneak this by us did you?!
-----------

You, my dear, are an AGS 000.
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Rich... My pleasure!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003


Figuring that a compliment will get you out of hot chauvinistic water? Well you're probably right. It's Sunday and I feel lazy!
 
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