ebay sapphire purchase here

[agapitor]

Well wonders of all wonders my ebay purchase arrived. Please refer to my previous post and lesson learned about ebay bidding [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cheap-cutter.150277/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cheap-cutter.150277/[/URL] It seems that the majority agreed that this is a synthetic sapphire instead of the posted "natural" sapphire stone. But, since it was quite cheap, I am willing to overlook that and use this as a learning opportunity. But, now that I have this, what do I do with it? How do I distinguish between synthetic and natural? I ordered a magnifier loupe and just not sure what to look for in a gem to determine whether it's a good stone when I get the loupe. Any help would be great to get me started. I've attached pics. It looks pretty to my untrained eye and am planning on setting it on a simple silver ring or pendant. thanks again to everyone for all your help.

 

[agapitor]

YIKES!! those pictures are HUGE!! how do I resize them?

 

[chrono]

A loupe alone cannot tell you if it is synthetic or natural. Even the reflective index of a synthetic sapphire will be the same as a natural stone. The only way to tell the difference is by looking for tell tale signs of natural inclusions within the stone or its growth pattern under high magnification.

 

[agapitor]

A loupe alone cannot tell you if it is synthetic or natural. Even the reflective index of a synthetic sapphire will be the same as a natural stone. The only way to tell the difference is by looking for tell tale signs of natural inclusions within the stone or its growth pattern under high magnification.

thanks Chrono.. this is my first CS purchase so I am hoping to learn something from it. Any advice on how I should start. Do I just use the loupe and examine the stone for any characteristics then compare it to future purchases?

 

[chrono]

Unfortunately, I don't think louping your stone will provide any clues either now or in the future. For future purchases:
1. Buy only from trusted vendors be it eBay or someone else.
2. Depending on your risk tolerance, you might want to consider a lab memo/brief for more expensive stones and stones that are commonly diffused, faked, synthesized, etc.
3. Not all labs are created equally either. In the US, AGL offers a brief for $50 (I think). At this point in time, I personally only trust GIT because they have equipment that will test for diffusion. I cannot recommend AIGS anymore because they no longer offer online verification of their briefs/memos.

 

[SB621]

I'm not a huge fan of the color or the window, If you want to start learning about CS I would start with things like saturation, hue, windows etc. I would also stay away from ebay vendors that don't cert or at least give you the option of certing stones.

 

[RockHugger]

Easy way to tell the difference between synthetic and natural is to fill a Jem jar with baby oil, then plop the stone in it face down. You can usually see the growth lines in the stone with a loupe and curved means synthetic, straight means real in most cases. Also you can see fine natural inclusions much easier this way. Of course fine inclusions mean real.

Sometimest there is strong color zoning where the stone is dark on the table, but clear at the lower pavilion. This isn't always 100% but if that's the case and no inclusions, I would bet synthetic.

Below is a pic I jsut took for you to see. This is a synthetic padparadsha sapphire I bought on ebay a year ago (for 9$). It is a a great learner stone. As you can see, colored table and colorless pavilion. Plus no visable inclusions with 30x mag. Diagnosis....synthetic.

 

[desertgem]

Sapphire grown in the Verneuli flame fusion method is grown into boules ( short candlestick shaped) which are then split into half to allow for cutting. The color is in a "rind" on the outer curvature, thus the curved growth liners. Here is a piece of blue sapphire boule on a dop before I cut it. I cut the pavillion to have the darker blue color and the lighter as the crown. This seems to give a more equal appearance to the stone.



Sapphire grown by flux or flux-melt or newer methods do not form boules and will lack the curved growth lines. Most still will be missing the inclusions, but the companies that make this now know how to add some appearing inclusions, which can confuse others than experts with sophisticated lighting and microscope. Some inclusions are from the process and immediately label it as non-natural source crystals, but you have to know what you are looking for. There are many books on this subject, but lab equipment is needed, the safest is to pass it through a competent lab IMO.

Jim

 

[chrono]

I'm not a huge fan of the color or the window, If you want to start learning about CS I would start with things like saturation, hue, windows etc. I would also stay away from ebay vendors that don't cert or at least give you the option of certing stones.

I only see a tilt window which is normal and also seen in almost all coloured gemstones when tilted past a certain degree. Based on the 3 pictures shown, I cannot tell if the stone is windowed or not because there is no straight on picture of the stone. The only way to judge windowing is by looking down through the table, not at an angle.

 

[SB621]

I was going off the last picture of OP had posted. Looking at it more closely perhaps I might have been to quick out the gate. It is hard to tell off that picture.

 

[LD]

Sarah - I'm pretty sure that stone doesn't have a window. It has a large tilt window but because of it's colour you can see that very clearly but I wouldn't stress about it.

Agapitor - unfortunately unless you send the gemstone to a lab there is absolutely no way of knowing for certain. If you look at what Rockhugger has suggested and then Desertgem you'll see that they contradict (i.e. curved lines). Even with years of experience you can get a feeling, do a few "feel good" tests but at the end of the day, you can always be wrong! There is nothing 100% conclusive apart from a note from a lab. Unfortunately manufacturers of synthetic gemstones (as Desertgem has said) have moved on in leaps and bounds so that they really do replicate the real deal and if that means adding inclusions, then they do it!

 

[agapitor]

thanks everyone it is amazing that there are so many variables when distinguishing between synthetic and natural gem stone. I also assume that it also varies depending on the gem. Rockhugger, I'll try the baby oil test if not for anything but as a learning tool. I am quite enjoying the learning process. Fortunately, this was an inexpensive one to start with.

 

[iLander]

thanks everyone it is amazing that there are so many variables when distinguishing between synthetic and natural gem stone. I also assume that it also varies depending on the gem. Rockhugger, I'll try the baby oil test if not for anything but as a learning tool. I am quite enjoying the learning process. Fortunately, this was an inexpensive one to start with.

I think it's a beautiful stone--and $5?--heck it's a fabulous stone! An awful lot of jewelry stores sell synthetic stones in fancy settings, I had a jeweler try to sell me a Chatham (synthetic) emerald for $10,000! He said he would give me a "deal" of $6,000.

Set it in something big and glamorous, you're the only one that has to know (need an emoticon with a wink right here).

Really very pretty.

 

[agapitor]

thanks everyone it is amazing that there are so many variables when distinguishing between synthetic and natural gem stone. I also assume that it also varies depending on the gem. Rockhugger, I'll try the baby oil test if not for anything but as a learning tool. I am quite enjoying the learning process. Fortunately, this was an inexpensive one to start with.

I think it's a beautiful stone--and $5?--heck it's a fabulous stone! An awful lot of jewelry stores sell synthetic stones in fancy settings, I had a jeweler try to sell me a Chatham (synthetic) emerald for $10,000! He said he would give me a "deal" of $6,000.

Set it in something big and glamorous, you're the only one that has to know (need an emoticon with a wink right here).

Really very pretty.

Oh iLander.. I love you!! you're my kind of girl

 

[desertgem]

you're the only one that has to know (need an emoticon with a wink right here).

Really very pretty.

I agree with this. I often buy stones on ebay that are suspicious, but if they are interesting and low cost, especially if they are less than a fast food meal, they will provide me with an interesting time examining it or maybe even recutting it.

I also didn't want to leave the impression that the new synthetics are rampant on the internet. In many countries, the natural rough costs less than the more exotic synthetics. I think there is more misrepresentation of natural stones ( saying one is a type different from what it is) than synthetics, especially the new ones which are difficult and slow to produce.

If you are interested in defending yourself to some extent, without a lot of equipment, you might study this Richard Sherwood posting from 2002. The techniques take a little work, but they are sound.
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-weapons-tactics-for-guerilla-gemology.10635/

Jim

 

[morecarats]

I cannot recommend AIGS anymore because they no longer offer online verification of their briefs/memos.

You can verify AIGS reports on this page:

http://www.aigslaboratory.com/CertificateAuthenticityCheck.aspx

Enter the report number and the carat weight from the report. I just tested one of my reports and it works fine.

 

[chrono]

MC,
Did you use an older report or something recent?

 

[morecarats]

I verified two reports -- one from June 2010 and one from Sept 2009.

 

[T L]

Thanks MC, it wasn't working not too long ago.

 

[iLander]

Ooo, ooo,

I have an idea! Try these people for an inexpensive sterling setting for your stone: $7!

http://www.pickyourjewelry.com/index.php?p=product&id=44379&parent=0

Their site is hard to navigate, but if you use the pull down menu in the lower left corner, you can find a setting based on stone size.

Then you can set it yourself! Check out Tripps homepage for cheesy animation for how to set the stone. Also youtube has a video if you search Tripps. You can do it with regular pliers, you don't need their fancy pliers, actually.

I've done it, it's easy! I've ordered from them many times, they're fine.

Then you will have a nice home for your awesome stone! And you will have a REALLT GREAT RING FOR UNDER $20!

How cool is that?

Then show your friends your fancy sapphire ring!

IF I got tired of the ring, I would sell it to my admiring friend for $40. There's actually the makings of a good business here!

I would do it.

 

[Largosmom]

Ideas:

Inexpensive pendant setting....then:

Gift to someone who cannot afford it, or a child relative
Donate to a charity fund raiser, many people don't care if it's "natural" or lab-made
Keep it and wear it yourself---has a story as a learning stone that you can share with others later

 

[agapitor]

Ooo, ooo,

I have an idea! Try these people for an inexpensive sterling setting for your stone: $7!

http://www.pickyourjewelry.com/index.php?p=product&id=44379&parent=0

Their site is hard to navigate, but if you use the pull down menu in the lower left corner, you can find a setting based on stone size.

Then you can set it yourself! Check out Tripps homepage for cheesy animation for how to set the stone. Also youtube has a video if you search Tripps. You can do it with regular pliers, you don't need their fancy pliers, actually.

I've done it, it's easy! I've ordered from them many times, they're fine.

Then you will have a nice home for your awesome stone! And you will have a REALLT GREAT RING FOR UNDER $20!

How cool is that?

Then show your friends your fancy sapphire ring!

IF I got tired of the ring, I would sell it to my admiring friend for $40. There's actually the makings of a good business here!

I would do it.

OMG! That is awesome!! $11 for sterling silver! Have you had any issues with not bending the prong securely enough? This is definitely a consideration.

On a positive note, while I was getting my ering appraised for insurance purposes I asked about semi mountings for my sapphire and showed them the stone. The jeweler did a "rough" look at the stone and confirmed that it was natural as advertised but heated. He also said that had it been purchased at his store, he would have priced it at about $1k so that's pretty cool. ilander.. I'm going to check out those videos. I do love make jewelry pieces so maybe that will hit two birds with one stone. Thanks for the info.

 

[agapitor]

Ideas:

Inexpensive pendant setting....then:

Gift to someone who cannot afford it, or a child relative
Donate to a charity fund raiser, many people don't care if it's "natural" or lab-made
Keep it and wear it yourself---has a story as a learning stone that you can share with others later

thanks Largosmom.. I have a niece who's 11 and I'm thinking of keeping the stone and resetting it eventually to give to her when she turns 13.. kind of something to give to her as she officially becomes a teen. It's going to be a honker for her but I think the pendant would be a better setting for a teen.

 

[chrono]

What did your appraiser do in his “rough” look? I question the fact that anyone can just look at a stone and be able to tell if it is natural or not, without the use of specialized tools. Did he spot any tell tale inclusions? A loupe will not tell you anything; he will need at least a microscope to be able to spot specific types of inclusions commonly found in natural sapphires. Heated can also mean many things; diffusion falls under heat only.

 

[desertgem]

I have an idea! Try these people for an inexpensive sterling setting for your stone: $7!

http://www.pickyourjewelry.com/index.php?p=product&id=44379&parent=0

Notice that Tripp's says that setting is for "well proportioned stones", and most of native cut stones are not well proportioned, and are hard/impossible to set in such a mount. I have used these, and they are tight for 98% of ebay stones. Jim

 

[agapitor]

What did your appraiser do in his “rough” look? I question the fact that anyone can just look at a stone and be able to tell if it is natural or not, without the use of specialized tools. Did he spot any tell tale inclusions? A loupe will not tell you anything; he will need at least a microscope to be able to spot specific types of inclusions commonly found in natural sapphires. Heated can also mean many things; diffusion falls under heat only.

When I say rough I mean really rough. He weighed it looked at it put it in some kind of apparatus. He didn't charge me for it. I think his wife who was a clerk was just interested in finding out what they would sell it for.

So just to clarify, even though a stone is "natural" it can still be synthetic because of diffusion?

 

[chrono]

A natural sapphire that is diffused (high tech dye-ing method that goes through the entire stone and is considered very invasive) is still a sapphire. A synthetic (lab) sapphire is still a sapphire, other than the fact that it is made by humans and not Mother Nature. However, pricing for both are significantly less than an untreated natural stone, if all else is equal.

 

[LD]

What did your appraiser do in his “rough” look? I question the fact that anyone can just look at a stone and be able to tell if it is natural or not, without the use of specialized tools. Did he spot any tell tale inclusions? A loupe will not tell you anything; he will need at least a microscope to be able to spot specific types of inclusions commonly found in natural sapphires. Heated can also mean many things; diffusion falls under heat only.

When I say rough I mean really rough. He weighed it looked at it put it in some kind of apparatus. He didn't charge me for it. I think his wife who was a clerk was just interested in finding out what they would sell it for.

So just to clarify, even though a stone is "natural" it can still be synthetic because of diffusion?

No. A diffused sapphire is a natural sapphire, normally an unattractive colour to begin with, that has been cooked with Beryllium to produce a fake (permanent) colour that makes it look pretty and acceptable. However, the market is flooded with BE diffused sapphires and they can be picked up very cheaply. There's no way your jeweller would be able to "see" or test for BE diffusion unless he had the same equipment as some of the most sophisticated labs in the world.

 

[Lee Little]

Hello agapitor,
Your stone looks lovely and certainly has many uses.
I don't want to be the bearer but it is very likely that your stone is a synthetic and your jeweler is mistaken. Jewelers are often fooled and cannot be trusted completely, however, a simple 10x loupe CAN tell you many times if the stone is a natural. Natural sapphire will usually have straight lines with 60 degree corners (hexagonal shape corners). These are almost exclusive to natural stones. If you can find a trace of such a line in your stone then go to the girdle and look for a seam. Sometimes they glue a thin natural crown to a synthetic pavilion, it is called a doublet. If there is no seam and yet you see a 60/120 degree corner, it is extremely likely a natural. A microscope would be the tool at this point to search for a conclusive inclusion.
That color is rarely and perhaps never a diffused stone. Even synthetic stones can be diffused but I doubt seriously that it is diffused.
If your jeweler put the stone in some sort of apparatus perhaps it was a refratometer and that will tell you it is very likely a sapphire, synthetic or natural, instead of glass.
I am sure you will make the best of it. Best regards, Lee

 

[agapitor]

Hello agapitor,
Your stone looks lovely and certainly has many uses.
I don't want to be the bearer but it is very likely that your stone is a synthetic and your jeweler is mistaken. Jewelers are often fooled and cannot be trusted completely, however, a simple 10x loupe CAN tell you many times if the stone is a natural. Natural sapphire will usually have straight lines with 60 degree corners (hexagonal shape corners). These are almost exclusive to natural stones. If you can find a trace of such a line in your stone then go to the girdle and look for a seam. Sometimes they glue a thin natural crown to a synthetic pavilion, it is called a doublet. If there is no seam and yet you see a 60/120 degree corner, it is extremely likely a natural. A microscope would be the tool at this point to search for a conclusive inclusion.
That color is rarely and perhaps never a diffused stone. Even synthetic stones can be diffused but I doubt seriously that it is diffused.
If your jeweler put the stone in some sort of apparatus perhaps it was a refratometer and that will tell you it is very likely a sapphire, synthetic or natural, instead of glass.
I am sure you will make the best of it. Best regards, Lee

Thanks Lee.. no worries about being the "bearer of bad news" Given that the cost of shipping was higher than the stone, I have no disillusion about its value. Although, wouldn't that have been a great story had it been a real natural sapphire. ah well.. I do hope to get a nice ring out of it. It's being set by Daniel M at the moment.