Dog peeps - need different perspectives on neighborhood etiquette

[MaisOuiMadame]

We just moved into our new home. Two out of five neighbors in our gated community have dogs. The neighbors right next to us have a great Dane, the others a lab. Both are cute & totally docile. How do I know? They like to hang out at our place.
Per the HOA standards and other restrictions (we have to ask historic monuments for any changes), we can't have higher fences inside our walled area.
I love dogs, but both keep stealing stuff from my kids.
I also had everything set up to get chickens, but abandoned the project because I'm pretty sure they're at risk - wanted to let them free range inside our fenced yard. Same goes for guinea pigs/bunnies... just afraid I might have to leave them suddenly while in the outside area (have a toddler and a baby, so this happens all the time..).

Anyone ideas how this could work? What can I expect the owners to do? What's realistic?

Fyi: lab people have been here for 45 years (both around 75+ y o, very sweet people), Dane people for about 15 years (both around 50, bit arrogant), so I get that we are new and they are used to just letting their dogs roam. When the lab stole a big (pricy ...) toy horse from my 3 y o while she was playing on the terrace, they found it funny, but leashed him for a day... but this was temporary and I also don't think this an appropriate treatment for a dog/doesn't make any sense education wise...
My RL dog enthusiast friends just laugh and find it funny and think I should get a dog myself and work with the other dogs so they get along. No small critters / potential prey, though...

 

[kenny]

Oh boy.
Red Flags here.

All things considered I would not get any critters for your backyard.
I hate to say it, but I'd chalk it up to not doing enough homework before buying this house.

Isn't large dogs taking toys away from a 3 yo a serious risk to the child?
It's not quite clear from what you wrote but apparently those big dogs are getting into your backyard and you're not allowed to build a fence high enough to keep them out.
If so, I'd never leave my small kids in the back yard unsupervised.

Perhaps build solid safe dog-proof structures in your backyard for the critters you want to get.

Hope I'm not being too alarmist, but I'm not a gambler especially when child safety is involved.

 

[redwood66]

Oh I am so sorry you have this issue. This is one of my huge pet peeves. Pun intended. People who do not respect a neighbor's space with their animals. My next door neighbor was terrible about this (he just closed on the house and is moving! Yay!). His guard dog German Shepard attacked me on my own property. The dog was always out and ended up getting hit in the road. I had chickens for quite a long time and had to confront him about his other loose dogs which he ended up taking care of. I personally won't put up with it because you never know what a dog's reaction might be even if they seem docile most times. We have dogs and never let them roam because that is what a good neighbor does IMO.

 

[lissyflo]

Isn't large dogs taking toys away from a 3 yo a serious risk to the child?

Exactly this. Any responsible dog owner would be extremely concerned about their dog taking a toy from a child for a whole host of reasons.

Plus, if the dogs have free access, what's to stop them using your garden as a toilet? Dog faeces can cause blindness, especially easily in children because of poor hygiene. I have a dog and children and manage his toilet accordingly, but you shouldn't need to mine sweep your garden for your children to play if you don't own a dog!

I think you should bite the bullet and talk to the owners. You could also investigate invisible dog barriers (the electronic kind), although I think most require the dog to wear a collar so would need the owners to agree to a set up where your plot was invisibly 'fenced' off.

 

[Puppmom]

Not cool. Keep your dog on your property. Period. I cannot fathom that anyone would operate any other way. I live in a suburban community with small lots - under 2/10 acre - and most people have dogs. I've never had an uninvited dog on my property.

Those people are asking for trouble. It's a liability to allow their dogs to roam like that. It's also unsafe for the dogs and humans. And it's just plain rude.

I would talk to them.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Thanks for your honest opinion and concerns @kenny.
Since my kids are still small , they are never outside alone , hubby saw it and tried to take it back it, but is so much slower in steep terrain than a lab....The dog took that toy when she wasn't holding it - so not a dramatic situation, but yes, we need to keep. watching this very closely.


Thanks @redwood66, @lissyflo, @Puppmom for your opinions. I *did* talk to them. But they just totally did not understand (not in the least aggressive... they just found the sight of the dog w/that horse funny and shrugged it off). Conversation seemed not really get to them. So I need a reality check if I'm being unreasonable...

 

[lovedogs]

This is ABSOLUTELY not ok. I seriously don't understand what they could possibly be thinking. It's a complete hazard to have roaming dogs, especially around a small child. Unsafe for everyone involved, and inconsiderate of neighbors!

We have dogs (as does almost everyone in our neighborhood), and almost everyone is really responsible. The exception is that one of the neighbors across the street lets their dog roam randomly, and he always ends up in the street or pooping in our front yard. At one point he was just standing on our porch, and when I went to take our dogs for a walk chaos ensued. I was furious and almost called the HOA to complain.

I would definitely talk to them and explain that it's really unsafe to have their dogs roaming on your property--especially if the dogs are taking stuff from your child. That can become dangerous really quickly.

Good luck and I'm so sorry you are dealing w this!

EDIT: you are NOT being unreasonable. They are being unreasonable and putting their dog and your child at risk! Plus, it's just incredibly rude!

 

[canuk-gal]

Thanks for your honest opinion and concerns @kenny.
Since my kids are still small , they are never outside alone , hubby saw it and tried to take it back it, but is so much slower in steep terrain than a lab....The dog took that toy when she wasn't holding it - so not a dramatic situation, but yes, we need to keep. watching this very closely.


Thanks @redwood66, @lissyflo, @Puppmom for your opinions. I *did* talk to them. But they just totally did not understand (not in the least aggressive... they just found the sight of the dog w/that horse funny and shrugged it off). Conversation seemed not really get to them. So I need a reality check if I'm being unreasonable...

Not unreasonable! Safety is at the fore and their pet is on your personal property. Anything in the bylaws that addresses "free range/off leash" pets?

cheers--Sharon

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Oh and to clarify : part of the yard is situated on a slope so it's easier for them to get in and out. Height of inside fences at about 130 cm (47 inches )seemed good to us, given we have a 200 year old 3m high (almost ten feet) solid stone wall all around the community...didn't occur to me that they just let the dogs out w/ out supervision...
Live and learn...

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Not unreasonable! Safety is at the fore and their pet is on your personal property. Anything in the bylaws that addresses "free range/off leash" pets?

cheers--Sharon

Not yet, but we'll for sure try to get that in there on the next occasion...

 

[Octo2005]

I don't think that you are being unreasonable at all.

I think that you are just going to have to be blunt with them and say that while the dogs are friendly, it concerns you that they are entering your yard with your small children and insist that they keep the dogs out of your yard.

Are there no rules in the HOA about unleashed pets?

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

By law are not off leash areas designated?

cheers--Sharon

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

We're not in the US, so our construction ( equivalent to a gated community) is quite rare and HOAs a are generally less organized. Ours was established in the 1960ies and covers the basics ( fees/basic rules... no specifics on pets whatsoever). Our strict building restrictions are due to our county and national laws (we're in an environmental protection area AND national heritage area AND our place itself is protected...). So no need to go into any more detail than that HOA-wise

 

[Rfisher]

What a pain in the butt!
I know it's often that when looking at potential houses, noticing the neighbors habits is hard to detect.
I hope you the best- after addressing the neighbor directly unfruitfully - and then addressing the HOA - sometimes the neighbor relationship sours more.
You'd probably never let this happen, but what do you think they'd say if it were your kids hanging out in their yards and moving their yard/garage stuffs around?
Take it to the HOA that for you to be a responsible chicken/bunny/guinea owner you need to add to the bottom of the fence at the slope. That won't make the fence any higher than it already is- and should contain the dogs as well?

ETA: saw your HOA clarification. Ugh.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

What a pain in the butt!
I know it's often that when looking at potential houses, noticing the neighbors habits is hard to detect.
I hope you the best- after addressing the neighbor directly unfruitfully - and then addressing the HOA - sometimes the neighbor relationship sours more.
You'd probably never let this happen, but what do you think they'd say if it were your kids hanging out in their yards and moving their yard/garage stuffs around?
Take it to the HOA that for you to be a responsible chicken/bunny/guinea owner you need to add to the bottom of the fence at the slope. That won't make the fence any higher than it already is- and should contain the dogs as well?

ETA: saw your HOA clarification. Ugh.

Exactly what DH said. And we have a lot of kids .
Just kidding, obviously... but I'll see if can get that analogy into our next conversation...

 

[redwood66]

What a pain in the butt!
I know it's often that when looking at potential houses, noticing the neighbors habits is hard to detect.
I hope you the best- after addressing the neighbor directly unfruitfully - and then addressing the HOA - sometimes the neighbor relationship sours more.
You'd probably never let this happen, but what do you think they'd say if it were your kids hanging out in their yards and moving their yard/garage stuffs around?
Take it to the HOA that for you to be a responsible chicken/bunny/guinea owner you need to add to the bottom of the fence at the slope. That won't make the fence any higher than it already is- and should contain the dogs as well?

ETA: saw your HOA clarification. Ugh.

This is excellent! Or if they dropped the diaper and something fell out?

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

If the dog ate something on your property (toys) got sick or died...would you be liable? Your neighbors know what is happening. Perhaps this has been a long standing issue--nonetheless. This is about accountability. What is your plan?

cheers--Sharon

 

[Matata]

I don't care how long they've been there. They chose to get large dogs that can't be confined by the fencing parameters of the HOA. It's the dog owners' responsibility to fix the situation. Find out what your HOA can do and what your local law enforcement can do and then ask them to do it. Hire a lawyer to write letters to the dog owners explaining the situation, their liability should the dogs damage your property or harm your children, and explain what actions you'll take if they don't remedy the situation.

 

[arkieb1]

There is no way in hell I'd put up with large dogs and small children, something dangerous could happen and they should not be able to have open access to your children's toys.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

HI:

If the dog ate something on your property (toys) got sick or died...would you be liable? Your neighbors know what is happening. Perhaps this has been a long standing issue--nonetheless. This is about accountability. What is your plan?

cheers--Sharon

Per my lawyer friends we won't be liable for harm to their dogs.

I don't care how long they've been there. They chose to get large dogs that can't be confined by the fencing parameters of the HOA. It's the dog owners' responsibility to fix the situation. Find out what your HOA can do and what your local law enforcement can do and then ask them to do it. Hire a lawyer to write letters to the dog owners explaining the situation, their liability should the dogs damage your property or harm your children, and explain what actions you'll take if they don't remedy the situation.

Mr. Great Dane is a lawyer, so well aware of the legal implications of the situation. And pretty confrontational,. So I am not too keen on a legal battle. If it's inevitable, yes. If not, much better. Local police were super nice (went to introduce myself). If they don't go for the electric fence (see below).
I'll ask if they could make an educational visit as the next step.

There is no way in hell I'd put up with large dogs and small children, something dangerous could happen and they should not be able to have open access to your children's toys.

This is the only positive effect: my kids never leave anything outside and tidy up their stuff immediately. I just told them anything they leave is fair game for the dogs.


Next I'll suggest @lissyflo 's excellent idea of the indivisible fencing. That should work and I can't find an argument against it.

 

[arkieb1]

You can buy nearly invisible electric fences, that will teach them not to go into your yard pretty fast, and actually if you don't want the dogs there and want something less visible again, look into devices that emit sounds humans can't hear that dogs don't like that might be another viable option to teach the dogs not to go onto your property.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

Thanks @arkieb1! Off to see what's available locally

 

[Puppmom]

The invisible fence - wouldn’t the dog need some sort of collar for the invisible fence to actually do it’s thing?

I would avoid lawyers if at all possible. I would hope this could be resolved amicably between neighbors.

Have you talked to the other families in the neighborhood? Are the dogs entering their properties as well?

 

[missy]

I love dogs and whenever I see one I have to go over and pet them and say hi and no matter if you love or don't love dogs this is inconsiderate and rude and poor behavior to allow one's dog roam freely on others property. These are neighbors who are all behaving quite unneighborly IMO.

I would talk to them ASAP before you set a precedent that it doesn't bother you enough to say anything and allow this to continue. And yes while your child's safety is paramount I don't feel that you need a reason to not want other's pets on your property without permission.

I love the invisible fence suggestion. I also love a physical fence but if the rules state they are not allowed that is that. I am of the thought that good fences make good neighbors and that is why I loathe HOAs and their rules and regulations. It's your property and your house and IMO you have the right to do what is necessary to keep your family (including fur babies which includes chickens and bunnies if you so choose) and property safe. Damn their rules. If they won't keep you safe then you will do what you need to do.

I wouldn't get lawyers involved and hopefully it won't come to that as that is extreme and might (probably will) create a bad relationship with them that you won't be able to recover from. Like it or not they are your neighbors and will be probably for some time given how long they have been living there.

However if you don't get cooperation from the neighbors then I would go to the HOA board and if they won't help then and only then would I get attorneys involved. But yeah if you cannot reach a reasonable (and the only reasonable solution here is they keep their dogs off your property at ALL times) solution then I would get the attorneys involved.

I am sorry you are dealing with this and good luck. Hopefully this can and will be resolved relatively simply.

 

[kgizo]

I am a dog lover with lots of dogs. There is no doubt about it, you are in the right. Sadly, I doubt your situation will change. Inconsiderate people tend to consistently be inconsiderate. Like recognizing they need to leash their dog, but only doing it for one day.
My suggestions are:
1. Keep a hose handy with a nozzle on the end. Most dogs hate to be sprayed.
2. Get an air horn (the kind from a boat store, not a party air horn).
If the dogs know this is going to happen in your yard they should start avoiding your yard. And, maybe the neighbors will get annoyed by their wet dogs and hearing the air horn (especially if the lawyer works from home) and will correct their behavior. Good luck.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

The invisible fence - wouldn’t the dog need some sort of collar for the invisible fence to actually do it’s thing?

I would avoid lawyers if at all possible. I would hope this could be resolved amicably between neighbors.

Have you talked to the other families in the neighborhood? Are the dogs entering their properties as well?

Yep, my hope as well!

I

I wouldn't get lawyers involved and hopefully it won't come to that as that is extreme and might (probably will) create a bad relationship with them that you won't be able to recover from. Like it or not they are your neighbors and will be probably for some time given how long they have been living there.

However if you don't get cooperation from the neighbors then I would go to the HOA board and if they won't help then and only then would I get attorneys involved. But yeah if you cannot reach a reasonable (and the only reasonable solution here is they keep their dogs off your property at ALL times) solution then I would get the attorneys involved.

I am sorry you are dealing with this and good luck. Hopefully this can and will be resolved relatively simply.

Thanks missy!
Bolded part is the reason why I am dealing with it, not DH...

Will talk to both separately and see how this works out.

As I mentioned: next step for me would be the HOA or an amicable lecture by a nice officer (they are at our pre-school gate every day, so I casually asked again at lunchtime, he said no problem, they'd do this).

 

[missy]

Kipari a thought I just had for when there are no children in the yard -motion activated sprinklers since we all know they probably won't like that. However that would only work when there is no one in your family in the yard and that includes your animals.
Another thought is you can surround your perimeter with sturdy thorny or prickly plants or shrubs. That might act somewhat as a deterrent.

 

[Efe]

Think maybe they got wind of your chicken plans and decided to head that off? Assuming there are not chickens already in the neighborhood, I would be none too happy with a new neighbor showing up and getting chickens when neighbors are in close proximity. Are chickens even allowed by the HOA? Don't know your neighborhood setting, but chickens attract coyotes and they create all sorts of problems for kids, dogs, cats, etc.

 

[soxfan]

Think maybe they got wind of your chicken plans and decided to head that off? Assuming there are not chickens already in the neighborhood, I would be none too happy with a new neighbor showing up and getting chickens when neighbors are in close proximity. Are chickens even allowed by the HOA? Don't know your neighborhood setting, but chickens attract coyotes and they create all sorts of problems for kids, dogs, cats, etc.

Hmmm....I have chickens. How do they create problems for kids, dogs and cats?

 

[Efe]

Hmmm....I have chickens. How do they create problems for kids, dogs and cats?

Chickens attract foxes and coyotes. Coyotes are very aggressive getting to their prey.

Don't even get me started about people with chickens and roosters!