Does H&A Guarantee Maximum Fire And Brilliance?

[frankie1967]

hi,

I need some help on a burning question. I had been to several shops in my area while shopping for a diamond ring. The thing is, I can't tell much difference in brilliance and fire from my newbie eye when I am looking at Excellent Cut diamonds vs H&A diamonds.

I had been to a retailer who carries Hearts on Fire diamonds. Despite being told consistently to the point of annoyance, H&As diamonds are supposed to look better/ perform better.

Can anyone especially the professionals here shed light on this?

1) Does H&A diamonds Guarantee Maximum Fire And Brilliance? If yes, why. If no, why?

thanks
f

 

[sleeprequired]

I will try and answer with what limited knowledge i have, having a month ago asked the very same question.

Hearts and arrows means that the diamond is cut to a specific range of dimensions and outside that they start to deteriorate in quality. At places like whiteflash.com, briangavindiamonds.com, or jamesallen.com these diamonds you will see have a specific depth range, table size range and generally star and pavillion facet range as well.

The optical performance of the diamond has less to do with the hearts and arrows and more to do with ideal/excellent cut grade, polish and symmetry which you will see on the AGS or GIA report. The hearts and arrows is a definite tick in terms of symmetry, not performance.

Having said that, vendors cutting to exacting dimensions to produce hearts and arrows diamonds generally are pairing that with ideal/excellent cut, polish and symmetry.

have a read of these websites -
http://goodoldgold.com/4Cs/ - pay particular attention to cut as this is considered the most important C by most. If you really want to understand it, read everything here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiM3COzjFM&feature=plcp - here's a video comparing various cuts... one of them is H & A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiM3COzjFM&feature=plcp - this might be a good one...

basically H & A is a very good way of viewing symmetry and proportions.. then look to everything being 'ideal' on the certificate for light performance etc...
'

 

[denverappraiser]

‘Brilliance’ is the light return. There are some squishy variables like the location of the light source and the viewing angle and distance that are obviously not gemological properties but basically this is driven by the angles of the facets on the back or pavilion.

‘Fire’ is caused by the internal refraction of the light. Basically, the longer the light path stays bouncing around inside the diamond, the more fire you’ll get. There are some downsides to this as well, by the way, particularly in the appearance of color. In addition to the above variables, this comes from the relationship between the crown and pavilion facets and getting the angles just right so that the light bounces from one mirror to another.

Hearts and Arrows is primarily about symmetry. It’s necessary to get the crown and pavilion facets lined up properly to get the effect, it’s necessary for the minor facets to be the right size compared to the major facets, and everything needs to be the same throughout the stone. These are good things, and there is definitely some overlap in these areas but it is not mandatory. That’s why there are ‘excellent’ diamonds that don’t show the pattern. The reverse is not so common. Stones are not cut to H&A by accident, and if the cutter is going to do it they generally get the angles right as well. A non-ex H&a would be nearly impossible to sell. The cutters know this and their job is to make things that SELL, hopefully at a premium, so it makes sense that they target the GIA-x or AGS-0 standards first and h&a symmetry second.

In answer to your question, no, H&A does not guarantee maximum brilliance and/or fire. Whether or not it maximizes beauty depends on your taste. They are consistently bright. They are consistently GIA-excellent in terms of cutting and are frequently also AGS-0 in terms of proportions but these are not mandatory to get the effect.

 

[frankie1967]

a big thank you to the posters. i have cleared up some doubts and along the way, have my questions as my mind processes the answers.

1) Let's say i walk into a retailer with Hearts on Fire diamonds or which other vendor that sells H&A diamonds. Is it safe to say that amongst the HOF diamonds that portray perfect H&A, the optical performance in terms of fire/brilliance would still vary amongst 5 HOF diamonds (five for the sake of examples)? Might some be more leaky than others?

2) Does an AGS triple '0' diamond necessarily equate to H&A patterning on the diamond?

Sorry if i sound abit dense here, because I am pretty confused by how the diamonds are marketed by salespeople.

fnk

 

[DiamondBrokersofFlorida]

There are AGS 0 stones that have no hearts and arrows.
Not all AGS 0 hearts and arrows perform the same way. Some are brighter than others, including branded stones like HOF. So in answer to original question, a hearts and arrows image doesn't guarantee maximum fire and brilliance.

 

[denverappraiser]

HoF is a brand. They are consistently pretty good but they are not all the same. The same applies to competitive sources.

No, AGS-0 is not an evaluation of Hearts and Arrows. The standards are about proportions, light performance, and visual symmetry and polish.

H&A has no well-defined and agreed upon standard. Some people will call something H&A that others would not. First evaluate the source, then evaluate the conclusion just like you are doing with clarity and color.

 

[tyty333]

1) Branded stones. (HOF, ACA) are usually cut within certain ranges (table, depth, crown and pavilion angles). It will probably take
A very decerning eye to tell the difference. They may look slightly different but they are all good. You can look at the pictures of the
ACAs on Whiteflash to see what I mean.

2) Like DBoF said, you can have AGS000 without H&A. You could also have H&A on a stone with angles that do not compliment each other.

 

[frankie1967]

Would an idealscope be the best for evaluating cut grade if i am in the store looking at a bunch of 'h&a" diamonds? Or are they any kind of instrumentation that I should request from the jeweler to help me 'see' the diamond for it's optical performance.

If not, what other method/s would you guys suggest?

thanks again,
fnk

 

[Karl_K]

IS or ASET are both good.
Anyone claiming a stone is h&a should show you that it is, either with real images remotely or seeing for yourself in a h&a scope in person.
To me no stone is h&a until I see the hearts and arrows images myself.
I have seen way to many stones called h&a that were not even close to feel otherwise.

 

[denverappraiser]

Idealscopes are a handy enough thing to have but they don't show H&A.
On the other hand, any store claiming their goods are H&A should have a viewer you can use to 'prove' it.

 

[frankie1967]

I just returned from another visit to the jeweler that sells Hearts on Fire diamond.

I borrowed an idealscope and ideal light from a friend and took them to the store to examine the diamonds. There was only one loose diamond available and the rest were already mounted.

Here's what I saw.

Using this chart, I see nice arrows like that described in the "excellent" grade. The typical arrows that you would expect to see. Symmetrical. What DISTURBS me is that I see whites in the diamond that looks like those described in the chart under 'Good'. Some whites and transparent under the table.

Please refer to this chart that I am using.
http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_reference_chart.asp

Basically, it has nice arrows with a bit of leakage and I told the jeweler to check it out with her own eyes. Of course, this caused a ruckus. I raised the question on why the diamond showed some light leakage despite being the world's most perfect cut diamond. This immediately put her on defensive mode and we had a debate. It's not a good experience at all.

Here's what I was told.

1) Each HOF diamond is cut to exact proportions. I asked if the quality of the HOF were the same across the board. For example, If I were to take a 1.002 carat HOF diamond and compare it to another 1.002 carat HOF diamond, the jeweler told me that I would see the same exact ratios and depth proportions. For example, 57.4% for depth/59.1% for table (I came up with these numbers just for example.) I was told THAT IS HOW HOF CUT THEIR DIAMONDS.. I couldn't verify this at the jewler because of there wasn't 2 exact diamonds with same carat weight in the store.

I am perplexed. Can anyone verify this? I think I am misled but the truth is, I am not a diamond cutter and would seek opinion from you guys.

2) Is the HOF a traditional round brilliant cut that is the same type of cut in Whiteflash's ACA or JamesAllen TrueHearts.

Confused...

Fncs
I

 

[frankie1967]

thread bump. sorry about that, i am counting down to a proposal date and would like to get the ring off things to do. anyone?

 

[GMUAlum08]

Denverappraiser, can you tell me about Solasfera diamonds? I bought one that has "VG" symmetry but still maxes out the GemEx and looks absolutely stunning in terms of fire and brilliance.

I guess I'm confused because I thought that all Solasfera's were cut so meticulously that they were considered ideal cuts but then mine only has a VG symmetry rating. Is this simply referring to the physical symmetry of the diamond and not the 3D optical symmetry? My stone is a round cut btw.

Thanks!

 

[TC1987]

thread bump. sorry about that, i am counting down to a proposal date and would like to get the ring off things to do. anyone?

Let me take a try: All H&A "super-ideal cut" diamonds are going to be cut to certain ranges of angles, table sizes, faceting, etc. But there can still be subtle or not-so-subtle variations in how they look when compared to each other side by side. Use the reports and the Idealscope and HCA and other tools to weed out diamonds that are not the cut quality that you want. But in the end, you or the recipient have to look at the diamond and like how it looks. But you cam look throigh the eye candy thread in Show Me The Bling and see loads of gorgeous round diamonds with H&A pattern. The arrows on mine never look black, They are either silvery white or they are throwing flashes of fire.

As others said, HoF is a branded cut. You will not get it at a discount, and all you will achieve by nit-picking and downgrading the HoF's performance is you'll anger the jeweler. You can get an equal or superior non-branded H&A pattern diamond from Good Old Gold or Whitflash or Brian Gavin or any Pricescope vendor. It may or may not be pricedlower than the HoF diamond. You can ask for quotes via the diamond search tool here. Maybe at least look through the Whitflash ACA selections, etc. and see how the prices compare to what you're looking at in HoF diamonds.

Not all people like round brilliant diamonds or H&A or Old European Cut or cushion cut or marquise shape, or whatever. Round brilliant with H&A pattern is probably a very safe choice for the majority of engagement ring buyers. The two schools of thought on e-ring purchases are 1) the guy makes a unilateral decision and buys what he wants to buy, and 2) let the woman pick it. A compromise might be you narrow down the choices or at least the price range, and then you let her make the final decision, or you make that decision together.

2) Is the HOF a traditional round brilliant cut that is the same type of cut in Whiteflash's ACA or JamesAllen TrueHearts.

Unless you are looking at the squarish Dream diamonds, yes, the HoF RB is essentially the same. It's a branded cut, as opposed to a "generic." See what PS-ers can help you find in your price range.

Good luck! Quit stressing. Lots of people here will help you locate a diamond online, from PS vendor inventories or virtual stones, too.

Search here for the PS "cheat sheet" of RB diamond parameters. It will tell you what crown/pavillian angle ranges, etc. to look at, to bias your search toward only the top performance in H&A RBs.

 

[John287]

Re: Does H&A Guarantee Maximum Fire And Brilliance?

thread bump. sorry about that, i am counting down to a proposal date and would like to get the ring off things to do. anyone?

Let me take a try: All H&A "super-ideal cut" diamonds are going to be cut to certain ranges of angles, table sizes, faceting, etc. But there can still be subtle or not-so-subtle variations in how they look when compared to each other side by side. Use the reports and the Idealscope and HCA and other tools to weed out diamonds that are not the cut quality that you want. But in the end, you or the recipient have to look at the diamond and like how it looks. But you cam look throigh the eye candy thread in Show Me The Bling and see loads of gorgeous round diamonds with H&A pattern. The arrows on mine never look black, They are either silvery white or they are throwing flashes of fire.

As others said, HoF is a branded cut. You will not get it at a discount, and all you will achieve by nit-picking and downgrading the HoF's performance is you'll anger the jeweler. You can get an equal or superior non-branded H&A pattern diamond from Good Old Gold or Whitflash or Brian Gavin or any Pricescope vendor. It may or may not be pricedlower than the HoF diamond. You can ask for quotes via the diamond search tool here. Maybe at least look through the Whitflash ACA selections, etc. and see how the prices compare to what you're looking at in HoF diamonds.

Not all people like round brilliant diamonds or H&A or Old European Cut or cushion cut or marquise shape, or whatever. Round brilliant with H&A pattern is probably a very safe choice for the majority of engagement ring buyers. The two schools of thought on e-ring purchases are 1) the guy makes a unilateral decision and buys what he wants to buy, and 2) let the woman pick it. A compromise might be you narrow down the choices or at least the price range, and then you let her make the final decision, or you make that decision together.

2) Is the HOF a traditional round brilliant cut that is the same type of cut in Whiteflash's ACA or JamesAllen TrueHearts.

Unless you are looking at the squarish Dream diamonds, yes, the HoF RB is essentially the same. It's a branded cut, as opposed to a "generic." See what PS-ers can help you find in your price range.

Good luck! Quit stressing. Lots of people here will help you locate a diamond online, from PS vendor inventories or virtual stones, too.

Search here for the PS "cheat sheet" of RB diamond parameters. It will tell you what crown/pavillian angle ranges, etc. to look at, to bias your search toward only the top performance in H&A RBs.

)

 

[diamondquestion1]

Seeing as you have to have a special viewer to see the hearts and arrows, is it true that an GIA ExExEx will generally not look any different to the naked eye than a Hearts and Arrows diamond (that is presumably also GIA ExExEx)?