Do you think this pad. has brown undertones?

[Indylady]

TL- My jaw just dropped after see Art Nouveau''s padparadascha.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/19/2009 12:07:48 AM
Author: szh07
TL- My jaw just dropped after see Art Nouveau''s padparadascha.

And that''s not the best pic of it that I''ve seen. On my monitor (which is why it''s so hard to judge them by computer monitor pics!) it looks orange with hardly any pink. But I know that stone shows pink in pics because I''ve seen it, and it''s gorgeous.

szh07, have you decided what you are going to do? I hadn''t been on Richard Wise''s site in a while but saw this one and it reminded me of the one you are looking at.

 

[TravelingGal]

Putting them next to each other since we''re now on page 1 of this thread...

 

[morecarats]

Everyone has an opinion about padparadscha sapphire. You see all kinds of colors represented as pads, from the brown-pink of the original poster''s stone to the spessartite-like orange in the brightly-lit ring setting. Everyone knows what they like, and many people have a preference for the highly saturated colors. So you see a lot of these offered as pads.

As far as the gem trade goes, it''s worth considering the best effort to date to try to bring some kind of standard to the topic. In April 2007, the Laboratory Manual Harmonisation Committee (LMHC), a committee with representatives from the world''s leading gem labs, published a statement on Padparadscha Sapphire ("Information Sheet #4). Here are the main points:

----------------------------------------

Padparadscha sapphire is a variety of corundum from any geographical origin whose color is a subtle mixture of pinkish orange to orangey pink with pastel tones, and low to medium saturation.

The name ''padparadscha sapphire'' SHALL NOT be applied in the following cases:

* If the stone has any colour modifier other than pink or orange.

* If the stone has major uneven colour distribution when viewed with the unaided eye and the table up +/- 30 degrees

* If the stone has been treated by lattice diffusion of a foreign element, treated by irradiation or dyed, coated, painted, etc.

------------------------------------------

I asked if the original poster''s sapphire was offered by the dealer as a padparadscha and whether it had been certified as such. I wouldn''t want to offer an opinion until I saw the actual stones, and I would defer in any case to the lab gemologists who have seen hundreds or thousands of padparadscha candidates.

Given the guidelines from the LMHC, it is possible that the original poster''s gem would fail to qualify due to the brown tones, or that the bright stone in the ring setting would fail to qualify due to yellow tones or color zoning or high saturation. Or maybe they both qualify as pads.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/19/2009 12:14:38 AM
Author: TravelingGal
Putting them next to each other since we''re now on page 1 of this thread...

Nice find Tgal - the colours look close from the pics, but I actually like the cutting on the RW one better.

szh, any thoughts?

 

[T L]

Date: 10/19/2009 2:59:11 AM
Author: morecarats
Everyone has an opinion about padparadscha sapphire. You see all kinds of colors represented as pads, from the brown-pink of the original poster''s stone to the spessartite-like orange in the brightly-lit ring setting. Everyone knows what they like, and many people have a preference for the highly saturated colors. So you see a lot of these offered as pads.

As far as the gem trade goes, it''s worth considering the best effort to date to try to bring some kind of standard to the topic. In April 2007, the Laboratory Manual Harmonisation Committee (LMHC), a committee with representatives from the world''s leading gem labs, published a statement on Padparadscha Sapphire (''Information Sheet #4). Here are the main points:

----------------------------------------

Padparadscha sapphire is a variety of corundum from any geographical origin whose color is a subtle mixture of pinkish orange to orangey pink with pastel tones, and low to medium saturation.

The name ''padparadscha sapphire'' SHALL NOT be applied in the following cases:

* If the stone has any colour modifier other than pink or orange.

* If the stone has major uneven colour distribution when viewed with the unaided eye and the table up +/- 30 degrees

* If the stone has been treated by lattice diffusion of a foreign element, treated by irradiation or dyed, coated, painted, etc.

------------------------------------------

I asked if the original poster''s sapphire was offered by the dealer as a padparadscha and whether it had been certified as such. I wouldn''t want to offer an opinion until I saw the actual stones, and I would defer in any case to the lab gemologists who have seen hundreds or thousands of padparadscha candidates.

Given the guidelines from the LMHC, it is possible that the original poster''s gem would fail to qualify due to the brown tones, or that the bright stone in the ring setting would fail to qualify due to yellow tones or color zoning or high saturation. Or maybe they both qualify as pads.

Thank you for the synopsis Morecarats. The part I''m confused about is the highlighted part above. As Coatmundi (a GG herself) pointed out earlier in this thread, the less saturated a warm stone, the more brown. I would think it would be rather low to medium tone, such as the pastel tones they are referencing above. Always learning about padparadschas, so if you have anything to say to that, I would appreciate yours and other opinions

 

[chrono]

If it is indeed a low to medium saturation, then it’s definitely not the stone for me. I take it to mean that a fine quality padparadscha sapphire will never be a vivid and intense colour. So a vivid orange pink untreated sapphire of equal parts and well mixed will remain an orange pink sapphire, and not a padparadscha?

Slightly off topic, but the categorization of the low to medium saturation reminds me very much of aquamarines where saturation doesn’t count for much, only tone.

 

[morecarats]

I wish I could give more information about the LMHC''s decision to define padparadscha in terms of low to medium color saturation. The committee has representatives from AGTA-Gemological Testing Center (USA), CISGEM (Italy), GAAJ Laboratory (Japan), GIA-Gem Trade Laboratory (USA), GIT-Gem Testing Laboratory (Thailand), Gubelin Gem Lab (Switzerland) and SSEF Swiss Gemmological Institute (Switzerland). Apparently they explicitly wanted to rule out the highly saturated colors that some dealers are selling as padparadscha.

One notable point in the LMHC''s statement is that they explicitly rule out geographical origin as a factor in identifying a sapphire as a padparadscha. This is consistent with their stand on the paraiba tourmaline controversy, where they rejected the idea that paraiba tourmaline should be confined to its original source in Paraiba, Brazil. One dealer with an interest in Brazilian tourmaline mines made a move to challenge this position in court, but he dropped his suit and paraiba tourmaline has now been accepted as a varietal term not tied to geographical origin.

It is not surprising that the LMHC ruled out sapphires colored by beryllium diffusion as deserving of the title of padparadscha. But they apparently accept simple heat treatment as consistent with an appropriately-colored sapphire being a padparadscha. At least nothing in their statement seems to rule it out.

 

[morecarats]

For anyone who would like to read the original versions of the LMHC''s information sheets, you can find them on the Gubelin Gem Lab''s website:

http://www.gubelinlab.com/lmhc.asp

 

[chrono]

Therefore, based on LMHC’s definition, the very finest padparadscha with medium saturation will be an orange pink sapphire with a slight brown undertone? Puzzling but it explains why both you and Richard Wise consider that first stone posted to be a fine padparadscha.

 

[morecarats]

Just to clarify my position, I thought it looked like a fine sapphire, but I''m not sure whether it counts as a padparadscha. I''d want to see the stone in person. The brown tone may be an artifact of the photo. The LMHC is clear that "any colour modifier other than pink or orange" would disqualify it as a pad.

Mr. Wise can speak for himself.

The original poster could help us out by providing a link to the stone that started this discussion. I''d like to see how the dealer presents it and if there are any other photos.

 

[chrono]

Morecarats,
I’m not trying to beat a dead horse but I am honestly confused. If LMHC’s stance that "any colour modifier other than pink or orange" would disqualify it as a padparadscha, a stone with low to medium saturation is going to show a brown undertone. Any lack of saturation is going to manifest itself as brown (in warm colours) or gray (in cool colours).

As for the stone itself, it could very well be a nice stone in person. It could just be a not so nice picture.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/19/2009 8:45:09 AM
Author: Chrono

Morecarats,
I’m not trying to beat a dead horse but I am honestly confused. If LMHC’s stance that ''any colour modifier other than pink or orange'' would disqualify it as a padparadscha, a stone with low to medium saturation is going to show a brown undertone. Any lack of saturation is going to manifest itself as brown (in warm colours) or gray (in cool colours).

As for the stone itself, it could very well be a nice stone in person. It could just be a not so nice picture.

The horse may be long dead already, but I''m not sure it''s been established that a low to medium saturation is necessarily going to show a brown undertone. I know someone said that, but I''m not yet convinced. I''ve seen light baby pinks in sapphire and tourmaline that didn''t seem to show any brown. Maybe there''s a color theorist in the house who can demonstrate for us that this isn''t possible.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/19/2009 8:01:06 AM
Author: Chrono

If it is indeed a low to medium saturation, then it’s definitely not the stone for me. I take it to mean that a fine quality padparadscha sapphire will never be a vivid and intense colour. So a vivid orange pink untreated sapphire of equal parts and well mixed will remain an orange pink sapphire, and not a padparadscha?

Slightly off topic, but the categorization of the low to medium saturation reminds me very much of aquamarines where saturation doesn’t count for much, only tone.

I don''t want to derail the thread, but I''m not sure about this point on aquamarine. Isn''t the so-called "Santa Maria" aquamarine especially valued because it is a more saturated intense blue than your average pastel aquamarine?

 

[chrono]

Date: 10/19/2009 9:00:00 AM
Author: morecarats
The horse may be long dead already, but I''m not sure it''s been established that a low to medium saturation is necessarily going to show a brown undertone. I know someone said that, but I''m not yet convinced. I''ve seen light baby pinks in sapphire and tourmaline that didn''t seem to show any brown. Maybe there''s a color theorist in the house who can demonstrate for us that this isn''t possible.

A light baby pink is just that to me; a stone with light tone but not low in saturation. I too am interested in having this straightened out.

 

[chrono]

Date: 10/19/2009 9:04:11 AM
Author: morecarats
I don''t want to derail the thread, but I''m not sure about this point on aquamarine. Isn''t the so-called ''Santa Maria'' aquamarine especially valued because it is a more saturated intense blue than your average pastel aquamarine?

I’ve read past discussion here in CS and elsewhere that the determining price factor for aquamarines isn’t the saturation but the tone. A darker (toned) blue aquamarine showing a gray undertone is priced more than a lighter (toned) blue aquamarine even if the lighter toned aquamarine has a more intense (saturated blue with almost no gray undertone) colour.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/19/2009 9:18:23 AM
Author: Chrono

Date: 10/19/2009 9:00:00 AM
Author: morecarats
The horse may be long dead already, but I''m not sure it''s been established that a low to medium saturation is necessarily going to show a brown undertone. I know someone said that, but I''m not yet convinced. I''ve seen light baby pinks in sapphire and tourmaline that didn''t seem to show any brown. Maybe there''s a color theorist in the house who can demonstrate for us that this isn''t possible.

A light baby pink is just that to me; a stone with light tone but not low in saturation. I too am interested in having this straightened out.

I thought in color theory pink is just a desaturated red. Since baby pink is not really on the intense end of pink, it would seem to follow that baby pink is not highly saturated.

I''m sorry I''m not smart enough about color to sort this out. I hope one of the members here will come to the rescue.

 

[chrono]

MoreCarats,
You brought up a good point that in theory, pink is a de-saturated red. So how does one categorize an intense hot pink colour?

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/19/2009 9:33:24 AM
Author: Chrono
MoreCarats,
You brought up a good point that in theory, pink is a de-saturated red. So how does one categorize an intense hot pink colour?

I hope this is not a case of the blind leading the blind, but I''ll try. Though pink is not as saturated as red, some pinks -- like hot pink -- are more saturated than other pinks, such as baby pink. Saturation is relative.

 

[chrono]

So where does a brownish red fall in saturation as opposed to an intense hot pink? My poor head is spinning.

 

[ma re]

Hot pinks tend to have some blue, and are really not a desaturated red (pink), but more of a desaturated purple (magenta). Hope this helps (but I doubt that it does...

).

 

[T L]

Date: 10/19/2009 9:23:03 AM
Author: Chrono

Date: 10/19/2009 9:04:11 AM
Author: morecarats
I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure about this point on aquamarine. Isn't the so-called 'Santa Maria' aquamarine especially valued because it is a more saturated intense blue than your average pastel aquamarine?

I’ve read past discussion here in CS and elsewhere that the determining price factor for aquamarines isn’t the saturation but the tone. A darker (toned) blue aquamarine showing a gray undertone is priced more than a lighter (toned) blue aquamarine even if the lighter toned aquamarine has a more intense (saturated blue with almost no gray undertone) colour.

Slightly off topic, but just to provide a reference, Richard Wise makes this statement in his book. It appears one of the few stones that has this distinction. I'm still confused about how the gem labs came up with this distinction of only low to medium saturation for padparadschas though.

 

[T L]

Szh07,
Do you want this stone because it's a padparadscha, or because you love the color? For me, a name or designation on a stone is pretty worthless if I don't love the color. You may love it, and that is fair, but I wouldn't get it just because it's a padparadscha. It may be worth it for you to see the stone in person if it's fairly inexpensive and returns are easy. If so, you must promise to take pictures!!

 

[coati]

Date: 10/19/2009 7:42:45 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Thank you for the synopsis Morecarats. The part I'm confused about is the highlighted part above. As Coatmundi (a GG herself) pointed out earlier in this thread, the less saturated a warm stone, the more brown. I would think it would be rather low to medium tone, such as the pastel tones they are referencing above. Always learning about padparadschas, so if you have anything to say to that, I would appreciate yours and other opinions

Hey TL,
I said that *generally, warm colored stones de-saturate to brown. I stated this to answer this question:

Date: 10/17/2009 11:54:24 PM
Author: szh07
Does it really have a brown undertone, or is it simply just very saturated in color, which might make it look dark?

This particular stone does not look highly saturated, so if brown is present, then it is a factor of saturation.

It is extremely difficult to judge color from photographs, so I am hesitant to label this sapphire as anything but a sapphire.

I find tone and saturation, and color in general to be a tricky business, as each eye perceives color differently--and monitors run the gamut. (I have a mac laptop connected to a huge pc monitor and the differences are astonishing)

Here's a fun page on color grading--with GIA the tone and saturation scales.
http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/index.php?title=Color_grading

I was taught that pink is a de-saturated red, and I was also taught that warm colored gems de-saturate to brown. I have seen pink gems that show very little brown, and I have seen pink gems that show a little grey. I have seen sapphires of vivid saturation that are a blend of orange and pink--with the padparadscha price tag. *Throws hands in the air*

morecarats--thanks for posting the LMHC standards.

In my experience, color defies conclusive definition. Color is contextual. Ask 3 people to define the color violet--you'll get 3 different answers. GIA has established a basic language, but it is only a framework. Cut and dry? Nope.

 

[T L]

I think of pink as a light toned red, not necessarily a desaturated red. Hot pink is more of a medium light/toned purplish red with strong to intense saturation, for example. When the intesity of color (saturation) tends to dissipate in reddish gems, that color is typically replaced by brown. I'm not going to argue it, but that's what I've read and encountered. Here I go quoting RW again, but on this page of his, he states "The hue we call pink is simply the name given to light-toned red."

http://www.rwwise.com/cg2.2.html

Thanks for the page Coati, I will look at it.

 

[Linda W]

Good grief, this is all sooooo confusing.

 

[T L]

We should probably start a new thread on color, saturation and tone since this is a fascinating subject to me, and I don''t want to bog this thread down with it.

 

[TravelingGal]

And let''s talk a moment about judging from pics...take a look at the one below. Would anyone be interested in it by the pic? It looks gray!! But since that is my pad, I can tell you it does not have gray or brown in it all to my novice eye (I''m sure Richard can chime in here). It is also more saturated than this pic, but still delicate. The photo below is on Richard Wise''s website. I would never make a decision on a pad based on a photo.

 

[Indylady]

I''ve just emailed the vendor to ask for additional pictures. This thread has created such an interesting discussion!

T-Gal, that color really is incredibly close the the one I originally posted! I just looked all over Richard Wise''s site, and I couldn''t find it. I''m really close to being won over, but I''m going to wait till I get to see a couple more pictures. I want to scope it out thoroughly before I order it, because I usually have a hard time letting go of a gem after I''ve gotten it unless there really is a serious problem.

TL- I like the color of this stone; I also don''t mind if its not called a padparadascha. I was never quite after a pad; I''ve always liked them, but wasn''t precisely looking for one when I came across this. What else do you think it should be called? Just a pink sapphire? The amount of brown that I see in the stone is just borderline out of the color that I really love. However, finding the color that I really love within my budget usually results in a very tiny gem (my emerald is a great example). The stone has a wonderful tropical sunset type feeling. I''ve asked to see the gem in different lighting and with a different background, which I am hoping will lead me to a decision.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/19/2009 2:06:51 PM
Author: szh07
I''ve just emailed the vendor to ask for additional pictures. This thread has created such an interesting discussion!

T-Gal, that color really is incredibly close the the one I originally posted! I just looked all over Richard Wise''s site, and I couldn''t find it. I''m really close to being won over, but I''m going to wait till I get to see a couple more pictures. I want to scope it out thoroughly before I order it, because I usually have a hard time letting go of a gem after I''ve gotten it unless there really is a serious problem.

TL- I like the color of this stone; I also don''t mind if its not called a padparadascha. I was never quite after a pad; I''ve always liked them, but wasn''t precisely looking for one when I came across this. What else do you think it should be called? Just a pink sapphire? The amount of brown that I see in the stone is just borderline out of the color that I really love. However, finding the color that I really love within my budget usually results in a very tiny gem (my emerald is a great example). The stone has a wonderful tropical sunset type feeling. I''ve asked to see the gem in different lighting and with a different background, which I am hoping will lead me to a decision.

http://rwwise.com/products/category%7C92