Do you have the right to recline your plane seat?

[MissStepcut]

No, I totally agree with you, I guess I would say, rather than the recliner having a right, neither clearly has a right to either not be reclined on or recline.

That said, I do think you have the right to not be reclined on when you specifically say that being reclined on will result in a non-consentual touching. Or, if a hypothetical worker with a laptop out said, "If you recline, you will break my screen" (as very nearly happened to me once when the person in front of me reclined and my screen was caught on the lip of the tray table indent) then again, you might be infringing on someone's rights. Which is obviously the best I can do. No clear right to recline, and possibly sometimes a right not to be reclined upon.

 

[Aoife]

No, I totally agree with you, I guess I would say, rather than the recliner having a right, neither clearly has a right to either not be reclined on or recline.

That said, I do think you have the right to not be reclined on when you specifically say that being reclined on will result in a non-consentual touching. Or, if a hypothetical worker with a laptop out said, "If you recline, you will break my screen" (as very nearly happened to me once when the person in front of me reclined and my screen was caught on the lip of the tray table indent) then again, you might be infringing on someone's rights. Which is obviously the best I can do. No clear right to recline, and possibly sometimes a right not to be reclined upon.

I do think there is a substantial difference between "reclining" when the the person behind you already has his or her knees pressed against the seat back with no place to move to get comfortable, and the person behind doing an "OMG you're in my space." I'm not sure any of the regulations cover that!

 

[MissStepcut]

The fact that it's unclear is probably why people get so upset about it (and according to the other poll I linked, the 7,000+ MSNBC.com readers who responded were evenly split about whether it's okay or not). I mean other than the two examples I came up with, circumstances in which you might be invading someone else's space, I don't know what right the person behind could assert. On the other hand, if the person behind used those little tray table thingies to stop the person in front from reclining, I don't see what they could do about it either. So there are two people who feel entitled to the space, and pretty good arguments on both sides.

I think the controversy stems from the fact that the very limited resource of "space" initially "belongs" to one party, and then the other party has the option of either taking it for themselves, or leaving the other person to enjoy it. I can totally see how both parties feel like it's theirs. Or like the other person is a jerk for thinking it's theirs. Or entitled to impose restrictions on when it belongs to them and when it belongs to the other party.

Furthermore, even if we agreed that you don't have a right to recline that you could exercise against the airline (and I think we could show that by looking at the common law for carriers and adding the federal legislation covering airlines), that doesn't really have anything to do with the person behind you anyway.

No wonder we're on page 6!

 

[kenny]

"Non-consensual touching"???
Oh, gimme a break!

That's an unfair and loaded term to use when talking about something so innocuous as a reclining seat.
Plus, the SEAT is touching you, not the stranger, excuse me, the pervert.

Such an inflammatory term brings up some of the associations of that four letter R-word., or hints that the man in front of you may be touching himself inappropriately as he touches you non-consensually
It manipulates, emotionalizes, and inflames the whole conversation like using terms pro life and pro choice.

 

[MissStepcut]

"Non-consensual touching"???
Oh, gimme a break!

That's an unfair and loaded term to use when talking about something so innocuous as a reclining seat.
Plus, the SEAT is touching you, not the stranger, excuse me, the pervert.

Such an inflammatory term brings up some of the associations of that four letter R-word., or hints that the man in front of you may be touching himself inappropriately as he touches you non-consensually
It manipulates, emotionalizes, and inflames the whole conversation like using terms pro life and pro choice.

Kenny, just FYI, I meant it differently than you are taking it. In law, it's a way of expressing an intentional tort. I didn't mean at all to invoke a comparison to rape or that sort of violation. I can see how you took it that way though.

 

[kenny]

Thanks Miss Stepcut.

 

[Nomsdeplume]

I practice law in a completely different jurisdiction, so just a quick question. Is the principle of de minimis non curat lex ever applied in US law?

 

[Deia]

Just an observation, but it seems to me that those who are against people reclining their seat do not take many long haul flights (I'm talking 6.5 hours +). I don't recline on short haul flights usually, unless I am really tired or it's early/late, but not because I think it's a rule or anything but simply its just what I do.

I'm sorry but if I recline and someone starts kicking my seat, pulling my seat, grumbling etc etc, it will not end well. I am a very seasoned traveller and that kind of shite doesn't fly with me. We are all confined in the same place, no need to fill it with animosity. I feel sorry for those that fly but have severe issues with flying, but to be honest why expose yourself and others to that if you can take a train/car etc for anything domestic?

 

[swimmer]

Ha, No, I was not saying that I let my baby kick people. Thanks!

I fly with my baby quite a bit and the glares I get from people just for showing up with a baby are really priceless. He has never kicked anyone that I am aware of at the airport or anyone else, but he does get squirmy and some of you were complaining about the person near you moving around, that was what I was referring to, movement. Even babies with excellent parents move, snore, giggle, etc. They are babies, not yet children so thanks; we are also working on getting him to use a spoon and to say "thank you."

Yes, my baby knows -in as much as any 17mth old can know- what "no" is. It is in fact his very favorite word after Elmo. I was just asking for a bit of compassion from the super judgy and totally lacking empathy posters here who seem akin to the many cranky people I see on airplanes. But I smile knowing that some day you will be holding your baby (or parent suffering from dementia, or ill friend or sibling) and while they have a meltdown and strangers glare and judge you will think "wow, I should never have been so nasty, I should really try to develop a sense of empathy!" I know your time is coming I too used to think "wow that person should control that infant" while earning elite mileage status for over a decade. Now as a mom who flies 3xs a year max, I know that control is very tricky.

Just wait for the next time you spend three hours trapped on the tarmac in a puddle jumper of a plane during a lightning storm. My baby slept through it thanks to GOD, nature, or whoever; I can't claim it was my masterful parenting abilities. We appreciated the applause baby got when we arrived, but ask yourself will you be as lucky as I was? Good parenting helps, but it doesn't cover everything. Keep on judging without any empathy and Karma will surely get you... Don't worry, I won't "tut tut" and shame you, I'll shift the diaper bag to another shoulder and try to help you out.
Maybe some of you could also try some compassion for others?

 

[Deia]

I feel so bad for the mom/dad of a crying baby. Sometimes the baby doesn't stop crying for more than 5 mins during the whole flight... and although I WANT to to tell the mom/dad to shut their baby up, I am sure they have tried doing so over and over again so me putting more pressure doesn't help anyone. I just put a movie on and hope I fall asleep.

 

[VRBeauty]

WOW!

It's nice to see that we can still get passionate about something!

Other than bling, of course...

 

[Aoife]

Just an observation, but it seems to me that those who are against people reclining their seat do not take many long haul flights (I'm talking 6.5 hours +). I don't recline on short haul flights usually, unless I am really tired or it's early/late, but not because I think it's a rule or anything but simply its just what I do.

I'm sorry but if I recline and someone starts kicking my seat, pulling my seat, grumbling etc etc, it will not end well. I am a very seasoned traveller and that kind of shite doesn't fly with me. We are all confined in the same place, no need to fill it with animosity. I feel sorry for those that fly but have severe issues with flying, but to be honest why expose yourself and others to that if you can take a train/car etc for anything domestic?

The bolded comment had occurred to me, too. There is a huge difference between sitting bolt upright in a not-very-comfortable position for 2-3 hours, and not being able to recline your seat at all for 4-9+ hours. In addition, not all airplane seats are equally comfortable/uncomfortable. There are airlines that we will not fly on simply because the seats are so miserable, no matter how cheap the fares are. So if your experience has mainly been flying in carriers with the better-quality, more ergonomic seats, it might be very hard to comprehend how really crippling some unreclined seats can be. Before someone starts advocating for the recline feature being disabled on all airplane seats, I suggest a few long-haul, preferably evening flights sitting completely upright, because I honestly do not believe that those who are so vehemently anti-reclining would never use the recline feature themselves. I'm guessing that what is really meant in a lot of cases is that they don't want the person in front of them reclining, but want the option to get comfortable themselves.

 

[jewelerman]

i like what kenny said about requesting that the air line attendant help find an other seat for someone who may have a problem with the reclining seats.just because you are assigned a seat dosent mean you cant be re-assigned to another one if they are available.Get the flight attendant involved if theres a problem...it is part of their job to see to each customers comfort while on the plane.everyone in the general public has their own idea of what is polite where this question is concerned(i never have reclined while on a flight)and would have no ploblem asking a flight attendant to move me or to help deal with an unpleaseant situation if it arises because ive paid for the expectation to have a reasonably comfortable sitting area.

 

[Haven]

I didn't read this thread yet, so here is my first response:

I think I have the right to recline my plane seat. When I choose to recline, I always turn to the person behind me and say "Do you mind if I recline my seat?" if the person is awake. I frequently travel, and nobody has ever denied my request. I think asking before I recline is important because it automatically makes the whole experience more human, if that makes sense. I'm not just some faceless person thrusting the back of my seat into someone else's space.

If someone said "No," then I wouldn't recline my seat.

I always recline my seat if the person in front of me reclines. I probably recline my seat first about 50% of the time.

I think there's a big difference between domestic and international flights, as well. I don't often recline my seat if I'm on a relatively shorter flight, anything four hours or less. But if I'm settling in for a ten or 12 hour flight, I'm going to ask the person behind me if I can recline.

I flew from Switzerland to Chicago with severe back pain this summer. I was more comfortable with my seat in the upright position, so of course I didn't recline. At one point during the flight the woman sitting behind me leaned forward to say that it would be okay if I reclined. She saw that I was physically debilitated in some way, so I'm assuming that's why she did that. I thought it was very kind of her to do.

I typically find that people become much more human when you actually communicate with them.

 

[TravelingGal]

I personally have more issue with sitting next to people on the plane--usually with at least one person who doesn't quite fit into their seat so that I am way too close to the person on my left or right than I feel comfortable being--than the reclined seat in front of me. On my last flight, a very large guy who was almost taking up the entire 2 seats on one side of a small plane just outright took my seat, probably hoping I wouldn't show up... and thankfully the guy in front of him said I could sit next to him instead, it was much more comfortable for me.

I flew last week and had a very large woman next to me. She had to put the arm rests up on either side of her (she was in the middle.) Even as I leaned against the window her entire body was completely touching mine, from shoulders to thighs. She thought there was an aisle open so she moved...only to come back when the rightful owner came.

Funny thing was when she moved, I was COLD! They don't have blankets/pillows on American anymore and I have to use my light jacket as a pillow. Well she moved back, fell asleep with a big blanket on her (which spilled onto me) and didn't even twitch for the entire 4 hour flight. Meanwhile, her radiating body heat totally kept me warm, and I passed out and slept like a baby, go figure.

And to wrap it up, a little story:

There once was a traveler who came upon a town with an old man at the gate. He asked, "Old man, what kind of people are there in this town?" The old man asked, "Well, what are they like where you come from?" The traveler answered, "Oh, where I come from, people are wonderful! Kind, considerate, and helpful!" The old man thoughtfully replied, "I think you'll find this town much like where you're from."

Another traveler came upon this town with the old man at the gate. He asked, "Old man, what kind of people are there in this town?" The old man asked, "Well, what are they like where you come from?" The traveler answered, "Oh, where I come from, people are rotten to the core. Rude, thoughtless, and angry!" The old man thoughtfully replied, "I think you'll find this town much like where you're from."

Moral of the story: It has nothing to do with the town and everything to do with the traveler.

Personally, when I travel, my number one goal is to have a pleasant experience. I find that most of time it has nothing to do with anyone around me and everything to do with the way I see the world.

My 2 cents.

 

[ForteKitty]

Tgal, your story made me smile.

 

[Haven]

TGal--I love your story and I completely agree with it, and your post.

When we travel it's almost always for pleasure, and it's almost always pleasant.

 

[kenny]

Tgal, your story made me smile.

+1.

We each create our experience of our experience.

These days there are so many people with the attitude, "I'm not happy, and it's not my fault!"

 

[TravelingGal]

Ha, glad to make y'all smile. Not sure where the story comes from, but my boss told it to me over the summer after I kept telling him that I always end up with the best accounts (I'm in sales) and that over the years I have never had a bad person to work with so I was really lucky that people were so nice. He told me this story and I was flattered, touched, and it stuck with me.

 

[Pandora II]

For you tall long-legged people, isn't it enough that the rest of the time you, um, are tall and have long-legs? You want everything???
Actually, they make a gadget just for you! $17.95 could change your life. http://www.gadgetduck.com/goods/kneedefender.html?s

Superb, I am ordering some of these!

Since these prevent the seat in front reclining and the FAA doesn't have an issue with people using them, what is the take on being in a position where you are unable to recline because the person behind is using them?

Would you feel you had the right to ask them not to use them? Whose right trumps whose?


Kids on flights - so far my daughter has been pretty good. We fly long-haul in general (at least 7 hour per leg) and I deliberately split the flights rather than doing a 15 hour non-stop in case she is a PITA so people only get so many hours stuck with us.

Before I had kids I was far less empathic about parents with difficult children. Now that I have a strong-willed child and am often 'that mother' I have far more sympathy. Parenting is a big part of it, but it is as much the child's personality. My SIL thinks she is a far better mother than me because her son has slept 7-7 since he was 2 weeks old and sits like an angel in his pushchair - no, she is just very lucky that so far she hasn't actually had to discipline.

My MIL told me that her eldest son was exactly the same and she also thought she was the greatest mother out there... then she had my husband who was the child from hell - didn't STTN till he was over 3, threw monster tantrums and discipline worked only if he was in a compliant mood. She went on the have another 2 kids who were somewhere between the two extremes.

I try hard to control her (consistently and persistently), and don't subject people in restaurants etc if she is misbehaving, but if I'm on a plane or other trapped space then it is sometimes a choice between a wriggly child who is going to move around a lot but be relatively quiet or a child who I strap in a seat and is likely to scream 2 hours non-stop (as she still does in a car-seat and why I don't take one on a plane). I try to choose the lesser of two evils. I also use seat-guru and select seats near the bassinette seats so that people who chose to sit in that area of the plane have basically opted to risk being near children (all the airlines I fly with allow pre-check-in seat selection). I also choose window seats so she is trapped and can't speed up and down the aisles.

 

[Aoife]

For you tall long-legged people, isn't it enough that the rest of the time you, um, are tall and have long-legs? You want everything???
Actually, they make a gadget just for you! $17.95 could change your life. http://www.gadgetduck.com/goods/kneedefender.html?s

Superb, I am ordering some of these!

Since these prevent the seat in front reclining and the FAA doesn't have an issue with people using them, what is the take on being in a position where you are unable to recline because the person behind is using them?

Would you feel you had the right to ask them not to use them? Whose right trumps whose?

Most US airlines explicitly forbid the use of these, since they can result in damage to the tray table. Whether or not the airline forbids them, if the person in front of you complains to the FA, you will most likely be told to remove them. The use of them in the last few years may also be why so many people appear to be slamming their seats back into a reclining position as soon as the plane has cleared the runway, since if you recline before the devices are in place, the person behind you can't use them. So if you want to up the ante in the airplane seat recliner wars, this would be a good way to do it.

 

[nfowife]

I generally don't mind if people recline their seats into "my space". It is slightly irritating when I have the baby with me and haven't bought her a seat (she's under 1). Because then my space is already limited, but I just make do because it was my choice to not buy her a seat. However when I do purchase a seat for her she must be in a carseat. Then I have 2 options: rearfacing as she is used to and comfortable with (and is the only option with an infant carrier-style seat), but the person in front of us can't recline; or forward facing but then she can likely kick the seat in front of us and well, good luck trying to MAKE a one year old stop moving their little legs around. We are flying to family for Thanksgiving and I did purchase her a seat (as I'm also traveling with my other 2 young children). It's only a 2.5 hour flight in the late afternoon so I will probably rear face her to keep her happy and quiet. Hopefully the person in front of her will be understanding.

 

[slg47]

for those who hate it when people recline...why not just purchase seats behind the exit row?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Simple- just become a diamond magnate so you can fly up front

 

[mrscushion]

Wow, this topic is still going strong, huh? No idea people were so passionate about the subject!

FWIW, I think you can recline if you want to. I never do it on short (< 3 hrs) flights, though.

 

[First_Timer_Guy]

If you go back gently enough and don't cause a disturbance then it's fine. Especially on a long flight when one needs some shuteye!

Perhaps just as controversial as this, for me anyway, is the person who grabs onto the seat in front of them to get up to go for a walk/restroom etc!

 

[ForteKitty]

YES, that is so irritating. Some rude guy was flailing around while getting into/out of his seat behind me while my seat was still fully upright. He was not tall/big/fat/disabled. He was simply a mess, couldn't find anything, then rushed out to go thru his carryon to find whatever it was he was looking for. Pulled out a chunk of my hair, and i ended up with an elbow in the head at one point!

 

[Pandora II]

Actually, there is a simple solution...

All airlines should install the seats that Cathay Pacific use - when the seat reclines, the part you sit on slides forward. This way, you impinge on your own legroom, not that of the person behind.

ETA: It looks like this is a heated discussion on many other boards - there have been a range of interesting views and comments. Some suggest angling your air-conditioning in a direction that might annoy the reclinee (after all, there is air conditioning supplied that is moveable in different directions and you are entitled to use that as you wish and in any direction that it may go), others are that rolled up magazines and water bottles fulfill the same purpose as the knee defenders.

I am actually guilty of the latter - unknowingly - the only way I could stop the water bottle falling off the table when I was travelling with my daughter was to shove it between the table and the seat-back. The thingy with magazines, flight safety cards etc didn't open enough to fit it.

 

[lovebug1031]

What??? Are you guys being real?? I PAID for my seat - my ENTIRE seat and ALL of it's functionalities. I get it is hard for taller folks - my husband is 6'5 and he has a difficult time fitting in his seat. Only then is a polite conversation warranted. What is up with people being jerks to the person reclining their seat???

Only exception: during meal/snack time. All seats should be back in upright and ensure the person behind has finished eating/drinking before you recline it again.

I'm oviously one of the people this annoys...yes you paid for YOUR seat, you didn't pay for MY space! It's different on long distance/overnight flights...I get it then, but I'm short and get annoyed that I don't have much leg room and that I have to bump my head on your seat if I need to get my handbag from under the seat. If I choose to lay my seat back because you laid yours back, I'm now forcing te person behind me to do the same if they want any room!

 

[kenny]

WHY is this such an explosive topic?

Anyone?