Do you have the right to recline your plane seat?

[Imdanny]

I can't believe this is a four page thread! Airplane seats recline. That's life!

Someone mentioned other things happen that might also not be "polite" in other situations like the fact a flight attendant has to reach over you to give someone their meal depending on where you're sitting. I'm on my iPhone and don't want to goback find that post and quote it but that's my perspective too.

You have the right to do it because you paid to be able to do it. Not only that how do you know that the person in front of you doesn't have a bad back or maybe they truly do need a mother' little helper of some kind to fly and reclining is part of how they can cope with flying? I can't believe anyone would think it's rude to do something everyone paid for and everyone full well knows is part of flying before they ever step foot on an airplane.

I'm not saying you can't use commonsense and tell the person with a drink on their tray you're going to recline your seat before you do it if you want to. I'm not saying not to use commonsense and basic humanity and if someone tells you you're going to physically hurt them the bleeding obvious thing to do is to not injure them.

But anyone who thinks you're entitled to have the person in front of you not recline their seat into "your" space- just no! That's not the way flying works. I've been flying every year since 1969. Airplane seats have never not reclined and it's "rude" to recline them? It's not rude, it's normal, and it's to be expected.

BTW, I agree with Kenny completely (sp?). Please don't talk to me about the poor airlines lest I break out my smallest violin and start playing the sceeching little POS. One of the two airlines in my state went bankrupt, screwed their employees royally, and when it was all over, the top excectives then gave themselves a "bonus" of $7 million! Airlines are greedy corporations trying as best they can to pay slave labor rates (ie as close to zero as they can) and trying to suck you dry of your last penny just like all the rest.

 

[Laila619]

Er, I really doubt that Swimmer meant that she LETS her little one kick seats just because "kids will be kids."

Er, I'm just going by her post, that people just deal with it. I know kids are restless and wiggly, but I don't agree you can't control them on a plane.

 

[chemgirl]

I am wondering what airline you are all flying that having somebody recline their seat is actually a big deal. I fly Air Canada almost exclusively and honestly the seat barely goes back! It sort of tilts in place and maybe reclines 2 inches max. I am a tall person and my FI is also very tall and I have never felt crowded by the person in front of me...even when stuck in the dreaded middle seat. This begs the question how far back do the seats HONESTLY go on most american airlines provided the seat isn't broken. Does it actually go back as far as posters are implying? I agree if your seat is broken that's not an invitation to lay flat out and abuse what is clearly somebody else's space. I think the notion that there should be 'recline rules' is absurd...really it's that big of a deal?!

Alice

Air Canada has been fine for leg room in my experience. I do take issue with them code sharing with United though. If I book through Air Canada and pay Air Canada prices I expect a seat on an Air Canada plane. United is a big step down in comfort and in service.

 

[MissStepcut]

I do not at all understand the "I paid to be able to recline" thing. Some rows don't let you recline. Sometimes it's broken. They still sell the seat to you as if it weren't. You aren't going to get a "non-reclining seat" stipend. You are paying to get from point A to point B at the speed of flight. I don't think you're entitled to much beyond that.

 

[MonkeyPie]

Er, I really doubt that Swimmer meant that she LETS her little one kick seats just because "kids will be kids."

Er, I'm just going by her post, that people just deal with it. I know kids are restless and wiggly, but I don't agree you can't control them on a plane.

Toddlers move. No, it is impossible to judge their every move so a toddler that is unhappy/has ear pressure/is tired (completely out of the parents control, btw) is GOING TO MOVE. Kicks are inevitable. Swimmer didn't even come close to suggesting that she had no control over her kid and was planning on letting them kick away happily.

I did some research. Unless you fly on some freaky airline, the most any seat will recline is four inches from it's original height. Some are reclined even at "fully upright", so it does effect it differently. I went to several of their websites and looked it up - Jetblue is at an automatic recline of 3 inches, 4 in the apparently awesome section, and that was the highest recline I found. There are a heck of a lot of airlines and I only looked at the common ones, but really, 4 inches is not in your lap. It is a nuisance at best but no one is getting a crotch banging. All the antagonist comments in this thread would be easily solved by doing one simple thing - communicating. Ask the person in front of you politely if they plan to recline, because you have long legs/need to use your laptop/plan to eat the whole flight. Whatever your reason, asking the person in front of you to be kind of really not too much to ask, and being polite about it (rather than passive-aggressive, as has been clearly accomplished by some posting here) is not likely to get a rebuff. If it becomes an issue, inform an attendant and see what can be done, rather than having a tirade.

Cake.

 

[Maria D]

I wonder where the 4 inches are measured from? At the top of the arc (tip of the chair) or at the pivot point (where the back of the chair meets the seat. Because 4 inches at the pivot point would actually be quite a lot. I'm curious....

edited to add: well, it can't be measured right *at* the pivot point because the recline is zero there. Off to see what I can find.

edited again to add: It's gotta be from the tip.

 

[MonkeyPie]

I wonder where the 4 inches are measured from? At the top of the arc (tip of the chair) or at the pivot point (where the back of the chair meets the seat. Because 4 inches at the pivot point would actually be quite a lot. I'm curious....

edited to add: well, it can't be measured right *at* the pivot point because the recline is zero there. Off to see what I can find.

edited again to add: It's gotta be from the tip.

Good point. I would imagine the tip - the pivot point is level, plus if the chair is curved it wouldn't be a reliable measurement from anywhere else.

 

[Gypsy]

Er, I really doubt that Swimmer meant that she LETS her little one kick seats just because "kids will be kids."

Er, I'm just going by her post, that people just deal with it. I know kids are restless and wiggly, but I don't agree you can't control them on a plane.

You can control them. You choose not to. I've had VERY well behaved children off all ages with me on planes as I used to fly A LOT. And for long distances (Australia and Europe).

The key is you have to be able to control them ELSEWHERE. No, if your kids are little hellions everywhere the plane will not be different. But if you are firm with them about how they behave and are consistent it will be no different on a plane.

It has nothing to do with planes and everything to do with parenting.

 

[iheartscience]

I wonder where the 4 inches are measured from? At the top of the arc (tip of the chair) or at the pivot point (where the back of the chair meets the seat. Because 4 inches at the pivot point would actually be quite a lot. I'm curious....

edited to add: well, it can't be measured right *at* the pivot point because the recline is zero there. Off to see what I can find.

edited again to add: It's gotta be from the tip.

Good point. I would imagine the tip - the pivot point is level, plus if the chair is curved it wouldn't be a reliable measurement from anywhere else.

Right, so if it's 4 inches MAX measuring from the top of the seat, the seat won't move back even close to 4 inches at the base of the seat back, where it could hit your knees. I'm no geometry whiz so I don't know exactly how much of the seat would be at your knees, but based on my flying experiences, I would guess that a reclined seat is maybe 2 inches further back at my knee level, max. I've never had an issue with someone reclining, and I'm 5'8" with around a 34" inseam, so it's not like I don't need any leg room.

 

[Imdanny]

I think it's just absurd that people would make up their own rules for other people about behavior when there isn't one single thing wrong or unusual about the behavior at issue. It's not rude to recline your seat on an airplane when airplane seats recline FOR YOUR BENEFIT and have ALWAYS done that. Maybe start a letter writing campaign to the airlines so that the 80% of the public who seem to think your expectations are unreasonable won't be given a CHOICE in the matter. Or maybe BUY a seat in 1st class if you feel entitled to not be so inconvenienced. And, yeah, never mind what I said about how the person in front of you might have a bad back or anxiety, or simply might choose not to act like a plane is an elementary school bus.

 

[MissStepcut]

I think it's just absurd that people would make up their own rules for other people about behavior when there isn't one single thing wrong or unusual about the behavior at issue. It's not rude to recline your seat on an airplane when airplane seats recline FOR YOUR BENEFIT and have ALWAYS done that. Maybe start a letter writing campaign to the airlines so that the 80% of the public who seem to think your expectations are unreasonable won't be given a CHOICE in the matter. Or maybe BUY a seat in 1st class if you feel entitled to not be so inconvenienced. And, yeah, never mind what I said about how the person in front of you might have a bad back or anxiety, or simply might choose not to act like a plane is an elementary school bus.

A poll of pricescope with under 100 respondants is hardly "the public."

This poll seems to indicate that slightly more people think you shouldn't be allowed to recline.

 

[sillyberry]

I think it's just absurd that people would make up their own rules for other people about behavior when there isn't one single thing wrong or unusual about the behavior at issue. It's not rude to recline your seat on an airplane when airplane seats recline FOR YOUR BENEFIT and have ALWAYS done that. Maybe start a letter writing campaign to the airlines so that the 80% of the public who seem to think your expectations are unreasonable won't be given a CHOICE in the matter. Or maybe BUY a seat in 1st class if you feel entitled to not be so inconvenienced. And, yeah, never mind what I said about how the person in front of you might have a bad back or anxiety, or simply might choose not to act like a plane is an elementary school bus.

80% of the 91 people who voted on Pricescope agree with you - I'm not sure you should be throwing that around as a statistic. I don't know if actual survey data is available, although I will say this forum is actually the most pro-reclining I've experienced.

I think it is important to remember that seats may have always reclined, but the seat pitch is different than it used to be. The less space there is between seats the less functional a seat is if the person in front of them reclines. So what may have once been no big deal now is a significant inconvenience. I find it absurd that you in no way recognize this as a problem.

Cathay Air has economy seats that scoot the base of the seat forward to change the incline instead of having the seat tilt back. I would love to see that become standard, although I have my sincere doubts about that happening anytime soon. Perhaps when airlines update their fleets.

 

[MissStepcut]

For what it's worth, I'm really not surprised this is so controversial. People are pretty touchy about having their personal space and freedom of movement restrained.

 

[sillyberry]

For what it's worth, I'm really not surprised this is so controversial. People are pretty touchy about having their personal space and freedom of movement restrained.

True. And then it gets to spiral into a round of "Kids. What's the matter with kids today?" which is fun for everyone!

Am I allowed to link to videos of musical theatre?

 

[MissStepcut]

For what it's worth, I'm really not surprised this is so controversial. People are pretty touchy about having their personal space and freedom of movement restrained.

True. And then it gets to spiral into a round of "Kids. What's the matter with kids today?" which is fun for everyone!

Am I allowed to link to videos of musical theatre?

On a recent callback interview, a partner started explaining to me what's wrong with "my generation." Apparently we take direction too narrowly. What a bunch of loafs, doing what we're told!

 

[LJL]

Er, I really doubt that Swimmer meant that she LETS her little one kick seats just because "kids will be kids."

I've flown quite a bit, and I can't remember ever having dealt with misbehaving children, or even loud ones. I don't even have that much patience or tolerance for other people's kids, but I rarely run into children whose parents are deliberately allowing them to misbehave.

Hmm. Except for that time a toddler hauled off and punched me in the thigh, and then head-butted me while I was standing in line waiting for my bagel. Busy mom, 3 other small kids...I guess she won't be winning Mother of the Year either. So many imperfect parents in the world!

I can definitely remember dealing with misbehaving kids!
I know I'm somewhat of a youngster myself but its hard for me to see how poorly children behave "these days" too. And I agree with Gypsy that it has a lot to do with how you control them elsewhere. My parents didn't scold me everywhere we went but a quick reminder of punishment later was enough. I'm not a parent, but when your kid kicks my seat 10+ times on a flight, I think thats unreasonable and ridiculous.

 

[Imdanny]

Whenever anyone says "just recline too!" I wonder - what if I don't want to recline? What if I need to work those hours I'm sitting on a plane, but I can't easily use my laptop because your seat is reclined? Didn't I pay for ALL the use and functionality of my seat, too, and you're depriving me of that? If I'm just reading or listening I don't mind too much if you've reclined (although I don't prefer it since it does make the seat feel more cramped), but it makes it incredibly difficult to get work done.

If I politely ask you to unrecline so I can use my laptop, would you consent?

Also, when people say "why would seats be able to recline if it wasn't appropriate to recline?" I think it is important to note time and place appropriateness. I think it is completely appropriate to recline on an overnight flight. Just not at 10am. I mean, cars can go 100mph, but we all agree that it isn't always (or usually) appropriate to actually use all that horsepower. My stereo can reach a very high decibel level, but my neighbors would appreciate if I didn't do so at midnight. It isn't like we always use all the functionality of every item at all times.

I'm not militant about this issue, and I'm not going to be passive-aggressive (or aggressive-aggressive) if you do recline in front of me, but I do think courtesy is on the side of not reclining.

No, I'm sorry but your car going 100 mph is false, as is your playing a stereo loud at midnight for the same reason, those two things are against the law. Reclining your airplane seat is against the law at take-off and landing (for safety reasons) but you're comparing people reclining their seats on an airplane to breaking the law and potentially causing injury (a car accident and deprivation of law and order respectively). You most certainly are not entitled to the space that the person in front of you is using if they recline their airplane seat. It's done for your benefit. It's done for the benefit of everyone who pays for a ticket. You might be able to do your work comfortably on an airplane, but you are not entitled to have the person in front of you not recline their seat so that you can do work. If that were true, you could use the call button and complain about the person in front of you to the flight attendant. In other words, the person in front of you is doing nothing wrong, he or she paid for that seat that reclines. You have no "right" to be able to get your work done on an airplane. You can choose not to recline your seat if you think it's rude, but you might as well be telling the flight attendant not to reach over you because it's rude when they are handing someone a meal. I guarantee you that it will be your expectations that will be judged to be inappropriate, not the person in front of you if they choose to recline their seat. You don't have the right to have as much space as you need to get your work done on an airplane. Maybe you should be in business class if getting your work done is something that's important to you. You might be able to get your work done there without taking away the right I have to use the reclining seat I might need or want to use. Those are the "rules" of flying. It has nothing to do with driving a car 100 mph.

 

[MissStepcut]

Well now I am probably just pot-stirring, but I believe enabling people to be able to do work, on the whole, has more societal value than someone getting to recline on the whole, so for the benefit of the greater good, recline features should be super-glued shut

In all seriousness, it doesn't seem that people have a right to recline, since it's not always the case that you can (for example, assigned the back row) and if you recline and end up touching someone else, you're infringing on that person's right not to be touched, which is legally protected. If the airline said, hey everyone, on this flight, no one gets to recline, because we say so, what right could you exercise to say you do get to recline? I'm just not seeing it. Going back to Sillyberry's car analogy, you have a right to drive down an open public road, but you don't have a right to hit someone with your car in the process.

 

[MissStepcut]

It's true that people accidentally touch each other all the time. That's different than a non-consentual touching, which is what would be the case if you said, "excuse me, please do not recline your seat onto my knees." That would take away the element of implied consent, which is what makes it okay to brush up against people in a crowded train.

I don't plan to be a personal injury lawyer, but if I were and came to me with similar facts, I'd take the case.

 

[ForteKitty]

I fly a lot, and often with very tall (long inseamed) people. I've never seen a chair recline so far it's in someone's lap or in someone's face. Please let me know which airlines still have seats that recline so much. I'd LOVE to book my next red-eye with them!!!

And yes, I recline because I sleep on every flight. I do check first with the people behind me, but no one has ever asked me not to.

 

[Aoife]

Well now I am probably just pot-stirring, but I believe enabling people to be able to do work, on the whole, has more societal value than someone getting to recline on the whole, so for the benefit of the greater good, recline features should be super-glued shut

In all seriousness, it doesn't seem that people have a right to recline, since it's not always the case that you can (for example, assigned the back row) and if you recline and end up touching someone else, you're infringing on that person's right not to be touched, which is legally protected. If the airline said, hey everyone, on this flight, no one gets to recline, because we say so, what right could you exercise to say you do get to recline? I'm just not seeing it. Going back to Sillyberry's car analogy, you have a right to drive down an open public road, but you don't have a right to hit someone with your car in the process.

I'm not sure you'd get universal agreement that all forms of "work" are for the greater good! Don't we have a thread about Wall Street somewhere on Hangout?

On a plane, if your seat is capable of reclining, it is reasonable to assume that reclining is permitted. The speeding car analogy is absurd, and has nothing to do with this particular situation. The so-called right to not be touched that has been cited is an interesting one. If one reclines ones seat, and the back of the seat touches the knees of the person behind, who is the toucher, and who is the touchee? It seems to me that anyone buying a ticket for an economy airline seat cannot have any reasonable expectation that no one is going to touch them, so I suspect the argument could be made that the normal expectations regarding personal space have already been thrown out the window from the minute you enter the jetway. You are touched by people lurching along the aisle to the bathroom, or the person who is sharing the armrest. I defy anyone to get onto or off an airplane without some physical contact with someone.

So far as getting work done during normal office hours goes, when you buy a ticket and get on an airplane you are entering shared space. One person's desire to rack up billable hours while flying is no more legitimate, urgent, or privileged than someone else's desire to take a nap. The consideration thing goes both ways.

 

[Aoife]

I fly a lot, and often with very tall (long inseamed) people. I've never seen a chair recline so far it's in someone's lap or in someone's face. Please let me know which airlines still have seats that recline so much. I'd LOVE to book my next red-eye with them!!!

And yes, I recline because I sleep on every flight. I do check first with the people behind me, but no one has ever asked me not to.

+1

 

[MissStepcut]

Aoife, you're right that there's some implied consent to be touched when flying generally, but I guess the question is, what if you specifically asked the person not to, because if they reclined, they would be touching you, and by not reclining, they could completely avoid touching your knees? I think that would take away the implied consent. I looked for cases on Westlaw and none clarified it, though since torts are governed by state law, it wouldn't necessarily matter if one court had come out one way anyway.

I can just feel Sillyberry and the other full-fledged attorneys rolling their eyes at me at this point... I know, I know, I should zip it with the hypos and get back to my Admin reading.

 

[kenny]

It's true that people accidentally touch each other all the time. That's different than a non-consentual touching, which is what would be the case if you said, "excuse me, please do not recline your seat onto my knees." That would take away the element of implied consent, which is what makes it okay to brush up against people in a crowded train.

I don't plan to be a personal injury lawyer, but if I were and came to me with similar facts, I'd take the case.

Everyone knows jets have reclining seats.
Given that, I believe by purchasing a ticket it is implied that you ARE consenting to the person in front of you reclining.
Nobody forced you to buy a ticket, and the airlines did NOT promise you the seat in front of you can't or won't recline.

Seats recline.
If that's a problem don't buy a ticket.

Thinking you have a right to those 3" behind the seat in front of you is like expecting to have a right to not hear anyone scream when you buy a ticket on a roller coaster.
Some things just come with the territory.

 

[Aoife]

Aoife, you're right that there's some implied consent to be touched when flying generally, but I guess the question is, what if you specifically asked the person not to, because if they reclined, they would be touching you, and by not reclining, they could completely avoid touching your knees? I think that would take away the implied consent. I looked for cases on Westlaw and none clarified it, though since torts are governed by state law, it wouldn't necessarily matter if one court had come out one way anyway.

I can just feel Sillyberry and the other full-fledged attorneys rolling their eyes at me at this point... I know, I know, I should zip it with the hypos and get back to my Admin reading.

That's why I think it's actually a very interesting question, and if you do happen to turn up any cases, I'd be interested in hearing how they played out.

 

[MissStepcut]

It's true that people accidentally touch each other all the time. That's different than a non-consentual touching, which is what would be the case if you said, "excuse me, please do not recline your seat onto my knees." That would take away the element of implied consent, which is what makes it okay to brush up against people in a crowded train.

I don't plan to be a personal injury lawyer, but if I were and came to me with similar facts, I'd take the case.

Everyone knows jets have reclining seats.
Given that, I believe by purchasing a ticket you ARE consenting to the person in front of you reclining.
Nobody forced you to buy a ticket, and the airlines did NOT promise you the seat in front of you can't or won't recline.

Seats recline.
If that's a problem don't buy a ticket.

Thinking you have a right to those 3" behind the seat in front of you is like expecting to have a right to not hear anyone scream when you buy a ticket on a roller coaster.
Some things just come with the territory.

That's an interesting point, Kenny. OTOH, you could say there are lots of times when you enter spaces where you could be touched by something, but that doesn't mean you consent to be touched in them. You run the risk of accidental touching. Once you say, "your action will result in you touching me, and I don't consent," is it still okay?

Anyway, the whole point is, I am seeing reasons why you have a right NOT to be reclined on, but I certainly don't see any right to recline. Like I said before, if the airline decided to say, "today no one gets to recline, it's American Airlines No Recline Day" I don't know how you would begin to argue that the airline infringed on your "right" to use your seat in a certain way. The fact you bought a ticket hoping you would be allowed to recline doesn't create the right, since not all seats are able to recline, and you might not know you're in a non-reclining seat until you board (for example, back row seats).

 

[Aoife]

[
Anyway, the whole point is, I am seeing reasons why you have a right NOT to be reclined on, but I certainly don't see any right to recline. Like I said before, if the airline decided to say, "today no one gets to recline, it's American Airlines No Recline Day" I don't know how you would begin to argue that the airline infringed on your "right" to use your seat in a certain way. The fact you bought a ticket hoping you would be allowed to recline doesn't create the right, since not all seats are able to recline, and you might not know you're in a non-reclining seat until you board (for example, back row seats).

Most people who have flown more than once know that certain seats on an airplane do not recline. All others do. You have a right to recline in those seats until the airline informs you that you cannot, or until the seats' recline feature is disabled. I have never been on a flight where everyone on the plane was informed that reclining was no longer permitted (except during meal service--not that most domestic flights do that anymore) so your argument is a straw man. I have, however heard FA's tell people to "sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight." They never added anything about not reclining the seat, only reclining halfway, asking the person behind you if it was all right, etc.

The expectation that you can recline the seat is a reasonable one.

EDTA: Whether you choose to use the recline feature is personal choice.

 

[MissStepcut]

Well just on the point that not all seats recline, I've been seated behind a broken seat that couldn't recline, and I know the person who was in front of me didn't get a partial refund for the loss in functionality, because he asked. I guess he could try to sue for the lost functionality, which brings me back to my original premise, that he had no right to recline and therefore no basis for a claim. Maybe someone more clever than me could come up with something. While it's a feature that apparently many pricescopers enjoy having, I just don't see that it's a "right" in any meaningful sense.

 

[MissStepcut]

For what little it's worth at this point, here are what the DOT says are your rights during air travel:

http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publications/flyrights.htm

No rights to in-flight amenities aside from food and water. You do have certain rights with regards to baggage and getting bumped and the like, which I believe were created by federal statute.

 

[Aoife]

For what little it's worth at this point, here are what the DOT says are your rights during air travel:

http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publications/flyrights.htm

No rights to in-flight amenities aside from food and water. You do have certain rights with regards to baggage and getting bumped and the like, which I believe were created by federal statute.

Without reading through all that, I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that nowhere in that is there anything about passengers having a right to use their laptops, have space between their knees and the seat in front of them, or anything about reclining seats violating that crucial 3 inches of space in front of their faces. Just a wild guess, here.