Do not request ASET images for round diamonds

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

See figure 5 in this page regarding what one eye see's http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/conferens-article/6.htm

 

[yssie]

Thanks Garry. Will make good reading in the morning

Re. ASETs I am-surprised that I am surprised.


ETA: okay that was a quick read, but I see more links. So, eye determines 'background' and more 'contrast' from background is afforded more 'importance'.. what if 'contrasting' images are 'equidistant' - if, say, there are two virtual facets too small for the eye to resolve individually, one is leaking and one is outputting white light, what do you see in that area? Could we say that whatever precision the ASET details is about the limit of what our eyes can pick up on IRL?

 

[Serg]

Thanks Garry. Will make good reading in the morning

Re. ASETs I am-surprised that I am surprised.


ETA: okay that was a quick read, but I see more links. So, eye determines 'background' and more 'contrast' from background is afforded more 'importance'.. what if 'contrasting' images are 'equidistant' - if, say, there are two virtual facets too small for the eye to resolve individually, one is leaking and one is outputting white light, what do you see in that area? Could we say that whatever precision the ASET details is about the limit of what our eyes can pick up on IRL?

Yssie,
could you please separate eye resolution questions from Stereo vision phenomena.

if we speak about Stereo Vision( you publish images from Stereo vision example), than VF size( resolution ) is not very important

Idea of stereo Vision example in next:

1) " In same diamond Zone' left and right eyes see VF's with quite different brightness. Even if these VF's have Same shape they could have quite different brightness due different raytracing direction for each eye.
2) VF for left eye could has Strong leakage but in same time "Same VF" for right eye could has strong LR

If background have low brightness ( less than bright facets from Diamond) your brain will see Bright VF instead Black for left yet and bright for right eye.
in same time "this VF" has very strong Leakage in IS/ASET( RBC P41.5Cr34.5)

 

[John P]

...But what does "green reaching toward the table" as in Johns pictures mean when viewed in real life, under an LED or diffuse office light - what can we infer about real-world visible effects of "green reaching toward the table" in ASET? And are our inferences valid in many environments?...

There are numerous past threads about painting and digging and the visual implications. The examples I posted are all "superideals" brillianteered with crown-only painting. This is the least deleterious of p&d practices but can result in a perceptual loss of brilliance around the girdle if extended beyond a certain degree. The resulting optical changes are environment-dependent, as you surmised they may be. The practice of bringing the upper break facet angles closer together can result in larger perceived flashes in lower light environments ("broadflash"). But at some point, as mentioned, performance along the girdle becomes reduced in other environments. Done properly it can be a fair visual trade-off - until deviation from normal indexing becomes severe, at which point the yang isn't worth the ying.

Relative to this thread: My experience with this topic over the years, and with different productions/brands, has involved extensive use of both IS and ASET.

More information here:
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds

 

[John P]

I am glad to see this topic has developed into a decent study.

Me too. But I still chafe at your topic-title and original post, for reasons I have outlined.
The consumer should have the right to choose.

 

[yssie]

Sergey - thank you for your detail. I believe I am seeing your points.

John - I hope you were not slighted that I questioned your pictures! Thank you for addressing my question, this is very interesting stuff I've seen that article - for me, looking at an 8* vs a HoF the effects of painting are only too visible IRL, but I sure haven't seen nearly enough of the in-betweens to make any empirical conclusions. We are lucky to have tradespeople with years of experience -nitpicking to do just that, and who share their findings

 

[whatmeworry]

Yssie's mention of table and green reminded me of a classic ASET confusion problem. Every now and then someone will be concerned because the table reflection in the ASET is green and thus the diamond is a worse performer than a diamond where the table reflection is red.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I am glad to see this topic has developed into a decent study.

Me too. But I still chafe at your topic-title and original post, for reasons I have outlined.
The consumer should have the right to choose.

OK John - how about:
Only request ASET images for round diamonds unless there was some variant in the ideal-scope image and you know how to interpret the aditional information from the ASET. Also you know how to overcome the frequent issues of setup variation and stone positioning that cause a lot of confusion

Edited

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

The Surgeon General warns you not to look at these pictures, until you are sufficiently trained to understand them. Many providers of these images, according to the Surgeon General, are also incapable of providing correct images.

 

[Serg]

The Surgeon General warns you not to look at these pictures, until you are sufficiently trained to understand them. Many providers of these images, according to the Surgeon General, are also incapable of providing correct images.

Unfortunately, Diamond industry has not such educational, training, research, crosschecking, etc, etc infrastructures as World Surgeon has .

What create huge freedom for different interpretation results from IS, ASET, H&A, FS, BS, ISEE2, ASG, GIA pictures, grading, etc
and usually these interpretations mismatch
Most "Strong" argument what I usually hear is "Several years of experience ". But I heard exactly same before ASET time.

I prefer something more scientifically proof, when somebody developed new cut( real new, but not modified round cut) based ONLY on ASET images, produce such cut and compare with round cut. If this cut will have similar or better performance than RBC, I will respect ASET tool

If ASET information is not enough to create new beautiful cuts, If ASET images could be nice for Ugly cuts then ASET can not be used as referee for Cut performance . it could be sleuth , but it can not be referee

It could be very bad practice to promote sleuth as judge just because sleuth has several years of experience

 

[diagem]

I prefer something more scientifically proof, when somebody developed new cut( real new, but not modified round cut) based ONLY on ASET images, produce such cut and compare with round cut. If this cut will have similar or better performance than RBC, I will respect ASET tool

If ASET information is not enough to create new beautiful cuts, If ASET images could be nice for Ugly cuts then ASET can not be used as referee for Cut performance .

Serg, are you specifically talking about RB's?

 

[Serg]

I prefer something more scientifically proof, when somebody developed new cut( real new, but not modified round cut) based ONLY on ASET images, produce such cut and compare with round cut. If this cut will have similar or better performance than RBC, I will respect ASET tool

If ASET information is not enough to create new beautiful cuts, If ASET images could be nice for Ugly cuts then ASET can not be used as referee for Cut performance .

Serg, are you specifically talking about RB's?

Yoram,
I am speaking about design new fancy cuts.
Modifications RBC with non round girdle I do not consider as serious cut design work( raytracing pass is very similar)

 

[diagem]

So serious "new" cut design in your opinion is a new faceting design not just based on brilliant and/or step.
How do you interpret "performance"? Light? 3D shape perhaps? Both?

 

[Serg]

So serious "new" cut design in your opinion is a new faceting design not just based on brilliant and/or step.
How do you interpret "performance"? Light? 3D shape perhaps? Both?

re:So serious "new" cut design in your opinion is a new faceting design not just based on brilliant and/or step.

Yes( Radiant is good example. It was huge step in Design 30+ years ago. I did not see similar step in last 10 years, but I saw a lot of boring designs)

re:How do you interpret "performance"? Light? 3D shape perhaps? Both?

Life:
1) Average Number of easy visible colorless flashes and colorful flashes in same time( in different light conditions)
2) space and temporal uniform distribution such flashes in diamond pattern
3) symmetry in pattern
4) Uniform or special( for example with high level symmetry) distribution for VF's sizes
5) How is often I see flashes from one single light source in room
6) Total brightens
7) absence of Dark Dead zones

 

[diagem]

re:How do you interpret "performance"? Light? 3D shape perhaps? Both?

Life:
1) Average Number of easy visible colorless flashes and colorful flashes in same time( in different light conditions)
2) space and temporal uniform distribution such flashes in diamond pattern
3) symmetry in pattern
4) Uniform or special( for example with high level symmetry) distribution for VF's sizes
5) How is often I see flashes from one single light source in room
6) Total brightens
7) absence of Dark Dead zones

All this on a new facet design only? Old (brilliant/step) facet design is also capable I believe.

 

[Serg]

re:How do you interpret "performance"? Light? 3D shape perhaps? Both?

Life:
1) Average Number of easy visible colorless flashes and colorful flashes in same time( in different light conditions)
2) space and temporal uniform distribution such flashes in diamond pattern
3) symmetry in pattern
4) Uniform or special( for example with high level symmetry) distribution for VF's sizes
5) How is often I see flashes from one single light source in room
6) Total brightens
7) absence of Dark Dead zones

All this on a new facet design only? Old (brilliant/step) facet design is also capable I believe.

"I prefer something more scientifically proof, when somebody developed new cut( real new, but not modified round cut) based ONLY on ASET images, produce such cut and compare with round cut.
If this cut will have similar or better performance than RBC, I will respect ASET tool "

 

[John P]

Sergey - thank you for your detail. I believe I am seeing your points.
John - I hope you were not slighted that I questioned your pictures!

Not at all. Your questions were good ones.

Thank you for addressing my question, this is very interesting stuff I've seen that article - for me, looking at an 8* vs a HoF the effects of painting are only too visible IRL, but I sure haven't seen nearly enough of the in-betweens to make any empirical conclusions. We are lucky to have tradespeople with years of experience -nitpicking to do just that, and who share their findings

No problem. Happy to provide my perspective. Indeed, the difference between normal indexing and two clicks on the tang is visible IRL - as well as in reflectors to those who know what to look-for. If you have spent a lot of time with fine RB makes it's possible that you've seen more 'tweeners than you realize. Normal indexing is not always strictly adhered-to, even among some top lines. The differences can be slight, but present.

 

[diagem]

If ASET information is not enough to create new beautiful cuts, If ASET images could be nice for Ugly cuts then ASET can not be used as referee for Cut performance . it could be sleuth , but it can not be referee.

Serg, I see ASET as a multi-functional tool, (and I hope I am not the only one), there is definite potential in translating ASET info into creating new "beautiful light performance cuts"..., not necessary "maximum light performance".

Your first and second interpretations of "life": "1) Average Number of easy visible colorless flashes and colorful flashes in same time( in different light conditions)" 2) space and temporal uniform distribution such flashes in diamond pattern ", which I fully agree with can't go together with "maximum light performance".

The point is translating ASET info into a designed "play of light" which performs beautifully when cut on a Diamond.

 

[Serg]

Sergey - thank you for your detail. I believe I am seeing your points.
John - I hope you were not slighted that I questioned your pictures!

Not at all. Your questions were good ones.

Thank you for addressing my question, this is very interesting stuff I've seen that article - for me, looking at an 8* vs a HoF the effects of painting are only too visible IRL, but I sure haven't seen nearly enough of the in-betweens to make any empirical conclusions. We are lucky to have tradespeople with years of experience -nitpicking to do just that, and who share their findings

No problem. Happy to provide my perspective. Indeed, the difference between normal indexing and two clicks on the tang is visible IRL - as well as in reflectors to those who know what to look-for. If you have spent a lot of time with fine RB makes it's possible that you've seen more 'tweeners than you realize. Normal indexing is not always strictly adhered-to, even among some top lines. The differences can be slight, but present.

John,
Such difference is visible in IS, in ASET, in girdle thickness.
But is this difference positive or negative for Cut Optical Performance?
Could ASET gives such answer? Could you give such answer?

 

[PCMusicGuy]

A lot a really good discussion going on here. If I may ask a very simple question, if images simply aren't enough for ASET, why can't vendors use HD video for taking ASET reports? Is it only a cost issue. Afterall, I realize there would be some upfront cost setting up a video cradle with a motorized assembly for the camera to rock back and forth in relation to the stone. There would also be increased bandwidth usage cost for sending/hosting video vs images.

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective really. There may be feelings that it is unfair for consumers to ask for ASET images. Personally, I also feel it's unfair for vendors to raise diamond prices on existing stock, but it happens anyway, and it is totally irrelevant.

 

[Lula]

A lot a really good discussion going on here. If I may ask a very simple question, if images simply aren't enough for ASET, why can't vendors use HD video for taking ASET reports? Is it only a cost issue. Afterall, I realize there would be some upfront cost setting up a video cradle with a motorized assembly for the camera to rock back and forth in relation to the stone. There would also be increased bandwidth usage cost for sending/hosting video vs images.

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective really. There may be feelings that it is unfair for consumers to ask for ASET images. Personally, I also feel it's unfair for vendors to raise diamond prices on existing stock, but it happens anyway, and it is totally irrelevant.

Hmm, interesting comment. I think I'll start a thread on this topic. I'd like to know what others think. I know I have wondered why the price of J, K color and below stones has gone up if the increase in demand from China and India is in primarily higher color and higher clarity stones...

 

[Cehrabehra]

A lot a really good discussion going on here. If I may ask a very simple question, if images simply aren't enough for ASET, why can't vendors use HD video for taking ASET reports? Is it only a cost issue. Afterall, I realize there would be some upfront cost setting up a video cradle with a motorized assembly for the camera to rock back and forth in relation to the stone. There would also be increased bandwidth usage cost for sending/hosting video vs images.

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective really. There may be feelings that it is unfair for consumers to ask for ASET images. Personally, I also feel it's unfair for vendors to raise diamond prices on existing stock, but it happens anyway, and it is totally irrelevant.

Hmm, interesting comment. I think I'll start a thread on this topic. I'd like to know what others think. I know I have wondered why the price of J, K color and below stones has gone up if the increase in demand from China and India is in primarily higher color and higher clarity stones...

It is my understanding that the foreign investors buying up the diamonds for china are no longer focused on higher color and clarity. Also, the huge parcels they are buying are a mix.

I want to know who is selling them so unabashedly.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

1. Chinese consumers of old bought hi color and clarity. New buyers know nothing and buy what looks OK for the money.Same happened in Japan.
2. US diamonds going back to the trade get resorted and repolished if required and will end up being part of the regular mix of goods in the market. (May be more diamonds above ground in Florida than below the earth in Africa)

 

[Lula]

A lot a really good discussion going on here. If I may ask a very simple question, if images simply aren't enough for ASET, why can't vendors use HD video for taking ASET reports? Is it only a cost issue. Afterall, I realize there would be some upfront cost setting up a video cradle with a motorized assembly for the camera to rock back and forth in relation to the stone. There would also be increased bandwidth usage cost for sending/hosting video vs images.

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective really. There may be feelings that it is unfair for consumers to ask for ASET images. Personally, I also feel it's unfair for vendors to raise diamond prices on existing stock, but it happens anyway, and it is totally irrelevant.

Hmm, interesting comment. I think I'll start a thread on this topic. I'd like to know what others think. I know I have wondered why the price of J, K color and below stones has gone up if the increase in demand from China and India is in primarily higher color and higher clarity stones...

It is my understanding that the foreign investors buying up the diamonds for china are no longer focused on higher color and clarity. Also, the huge parcels they are buying are a mix.

I want to know who is selling them so unabashedly.

Me, too, Cehra.

 

[Lula]

1. Chinese consumers of old bought hi color and clarity. New buyers know nothing and buy what looks OK for the money.Same happened in Japan.
2. US diamonds going back to the trade get resorted and repolished if required and will end up being part of the regular mix of goods in the market. (May be more diamonds above ground in Florida than below the earth in Africa)

Thanks for your insight, Garry. I got a laugh out of your second point -- so true.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

A lot a really good discussion going on here. If I may ask a very simple question, if images simply aren't enough for ASET, why can't vendors use HD video for taking ASET reports? Is it only a cost issue. Afterall, I realize there would be some upfront cost setting up a video cradle with a motorized assembly for the camera to rock back and forth in relation to the stone. There would also be increased bandwidth usage cost for sending/hosting video vs images.

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective really. There may be feelings that it is unfair for consumers to ask for ASET images. Personally, I also feel it's unfair for vendors to raise diamond prices on existing stock, but it happens anyway, and it is totally irrelevant.

If vendors do not raise the price of current inventory they will go broke.
e.g.
$1,000,000 stock sold 2x a year with 20% margin = $2,200,000 sales and $2,000,000 cost of sales = $200k gross profit minus say $100k of costs = $100,000 profit.
If the cost of goods goes up over the year by 20% and the average cost of sales is say $2,200,000 and sales are $2,400,00 then the same $100k net CASH profit is made, but the inventory has gone up by $200k so the tax man says you made $300,000 net profit and wants you to pay him $100,000k extra. The bank will not give you any more loan.
You cant pay school fees or eat.

(edited to add, in this case I raised the sale value of the old stock - and its still tough - imagine if the vendor sold at old prices and replaced at curent prices)

 

[stone-cold11]

Just having some basic accounting knowledge, but shouldn't balance book have standard principle, like first in first out or first in last out principle, depending on which is use but must be consistent, to balance a book. Is that not taken into account by the taxman?