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Cehrabehra

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::sigh::

I heard back from the designer I was considering - or am considering - and basically everything is changed - even the metal. I''m very disappointed about this. On the one hand - it would still be beautiful... but on the other, this isn''t the ring I''ve invisioned - it really isn''t even close. At all. I don''t know what to do. Is it too late to embed my diamond in my wrist and call it a day?
 

Kaleigh

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Date: 2/12/2007 2:58:47 PM
Author:Cehrabehra
::sigh::

I heard back from the designer I was considering - or am considering - and basically everything is changed - even the metal. I''m very disappointed about this. On the one hand - it would still be beautiful... but on the other, this isn''t the ring I''ve invisioned - it really isn''t even close. At all. I don''t know what to do. Is it too late to embed my diamond in my wrist and call it a day?
Why all the changes???
 

isaku5

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So sorry about this, Cehra
Do you have a plan B, or is it M by now?
 

Stone Hunter

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Oh I am so SORRY!


How can they change all of that for you if you are paying them??
 

Gypsy

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I''m sorry Cehra!

How can they change all that! Is this Ocean we are talking about... or the Oregon jeweler?

(((HUGS)))
 

Ellen

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Yeah, why all the changes, and who are we talking about?

And I''m really sorry.
 

Miranda

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Like everyone else said - Why? And ewwwwww, no diamonds imbedded in the wrist...Did you see that Dr. 90210 show? There was a re run this weekend. I love that show, but, I can''t even watch that one!
 

widget

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Are the changes because the design you want is structurally unsound? Or couldn''t you just go back to the drawing board?

If it''s Ocean you''re referring to, notice in the example on the website that her original concept for the clients jewelry suite was vastly different from the final products. (I liked her design better)

I can understand that you might want to pursue this privately with the vendor and designer, but know we''re all thinking of you, and looking forward to eventually hearing what develops...

widget
 

Dee*Jay

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Oh no -- what a disappointment!

When you say everything is changed do you mean the *design* of the ring? Do you have any pictures or images you can post? And why would the metal change?
 

Wink

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I talked with Ocean this morning before she contacted Cehra and informed me that there are some problems with the design as presented to us last week. She has spent many hours working on this and has come to the conclusion that the prongs can not safely be made except in platinum as bulky prongs are not wanted and the design does not have much support for the prongs so we must use a stronger metal than gold for holding the diamond safely.

I have not been able to get ahold of Ocean for the last half hour since I was informed of this post, so I do not know what was said, but this is my take on what has happened so far.

I am sorry if Cehra is dissapointed but we will not make a structurally unsound ring just because it is the wish of the person presenting us with the design. I trust Ocean implicitly and if she tells me a design element will not work, then I will not ask her to do it.

As to the comments as to how we can make changes when we are being paid to do it the way it was wanted, to date we have been paid, and have asked, NOTHING. We are in the design concept stage and have not charged anything at this point.

While I will accept critisism if we botch a job, I do not feel I should accept critisism for having the courage and the conviction to say "NO".

I accept that Cehra may be disappointed that her concept will not work as presented, but I do not accept that I or Ocean are in error for saying so before the stone is lost from prongs that can not meet the task of protecting the stone.

Wink
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/12/2007 3:18:14 PM
Author: widget
Are the changes because the design you want is structurally unsound? Or couldn''t you just go back to the drawing board?

If it''s Ocean you''re referring to, notice in the example on the website that her original concept for the clients jewelry suite was vastly different from the final products. (I liked her design better)

I can understand that you might want to pursue this privately with the vendor and designer, but know we''re all thinking of you, and looking forward to eventually hearing what develops...

widget
thank you widget - that is a concern of mine... I feel torn between wanting (needing) to talk this all out (husband and friends are useless - my jewelsistahs!) and wanting to be respectful and discrete.

The reason for the metal change is that she belives that platinum is stronger and less likely to bend - now, that is not how I understand it but I wasn''t going to argue with her. I just really don''t want a platinum ring and bottom line she wouldn''t sign off on this ring in gold. Issue #1.

The rest of it, to sum it up very simply is a difference in vision. And to make it worse, the way she invisions my design wouldn''t be structurally sound - however this is after she has made everything super dainty and airy to let lots of light in... but I don''t want everything super dainty and airy... I didn''t go to 8 prongs so I could have smaller prongs - I went to 8 prongs to have it even MORE sturdy as well as to provide additional surface to be mirrored inside the bowl. Issue #2.

But mostly I got the feeling, and I could be wrong, that this is more headache than she cares to deal with at this time. She''s having some health issues too (Is this a pattern?) and I got a strong feeling that if I wasn''t keen on the changes I needed to look elsewhere... she laid it out very simply on the metal issue alone. Issue #3.

Now... she has sent me some other pictures of work she''s done and I must say she''s absolutely brilliant in her work... but for whatever reason we''re just not sharing a vsion and I''m VERY disappointed about that. She''s so nice, so smart, so kind... and truly talented. I think that if she were feeling better things would be different... but I''m not the type that likes to argue with people and I know she''s in pain and I don''t want to do that to her right now. I could be running at the first hint of an issue... I did tell her I would think about it and I am thinking about it... I just can''t wrap my mind around the changes. To my eyes HER designs are more fragile than mine - I really don''t see how there is anything flimsy in the design...

... I''m tempted to go back to the local jeweler and ask her if she''s feeling better.... ::sob::
 

movie zombie

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oops, sounds like a real communication gap re dainty and bulky.......perhaps more consultation is needed to clarify that you aren''t afraid of some bulk?

movie zombie
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/12/2007 3:58:02 PM
Author: Wink
I talked with Ocean this morning before she contacted Cehra and informed me that there are some problems with the design as presented to us last week. She has spent many hours working on this and has come to the conclusion that the prongs can not safely be made except in platinum as bulky prongs are not wanted and the design does not have much support for the prongs so we must use a stronger metal than gold for holding the diamond safely.

I have not been able to get ahold of Ocean for the last half hour since I was informed of this post, so I do not know what was said, but this is my take on what has happened so far.

I am sorry if Cehra is dissapointed but we will not make a structurally unsound ring just because it is the wish of the person presenting us with the design. I trust Ocean implicitly and if she tells me a design element will not work, then I will not ask her to do it.

As to the comments as to how we can make changes when we are being paid to do it the way it was wanted, to date we have been paid, and have asked, NOTHING. We are in the design concept stage and have not charged anything at this point.

While I will accept critisism if we botch a job, I do not feel I should accept critisism for having the courage and the conviction to say ''NO''.

I accept that Cehra may be disappointed that her concept will not work as presented, but I do not accept that I or Ocean are in error for saying so before the stone is lost from prongs that can not meet the task of protecting the stone.

Wink
I appreciate what you say and I agree with it - except that it really isn''t my design that is fragile (does anything about that wax look fragile?) - it is ocean''s interpretation of it... and that''s fine. Maybe she doesn''t see what I see and that''s okay too. There is nothing that I don''t appreciate about her efforts.

There ARE other design ideas I have that would add even *more* support to the prongs but they would make the bowl even more inclosed and less airy and I think that is a sticking point for the vision - airy vs inclosed.

I''m really not up for a confrontation about all of this - I''d much rather go hide in a cave with my precious.

Gypsy? Can we do lunch? ::flying south for the day::
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/12/2007 4:03:33 PM
Author: movie zombie
oops, sounds like a real communication gap re dainty and bulky.......perhaps more consultation is needed to clarify that you aren''t afraid of some bulk?

movie zombie
Yes, and she''s so talented there''s a part of me that just wants to submit and be carried away on a designer floaty device to a heavenly place where dainty prongs and airy heads make a magnificent structure that I can wear and will think is beautiful...

...but I wouldn''t love the ring any more than a couple dozen ready designed rings out there. What''s the point of going custom?

My biggest problem with not going custom is being limited to 4 prongs. I WANT the extra sturdiness and protection that 8 spaced prongs will give - but I want them regular prong sized prongs... in the FIRST web thing ocean was in - I asked her how small prongs could go and she said 1mm. For my ring she''s suggesting 8/10ths of a mm. But when she said 1mm in my head I said okay 1.2mm - I want everything MORE reinforced than it needs to be BECAUSE I''m not easy on rings and I know this ahead of time...

.... but the floaty dream means I can just close my eyes and drift away and when I awake the thing will be on my finger and I don''t have to think about this anymore.

And before anyone says I should give up blah blah blah - no way. I am not totally stuck in my vision of this ring, but I have limits.

Biggest most bottomest line - I didn''t get the feeling that she WANTED to negotiate. I don''t think she wants to do this job. That''s what I get from this foremost. I think if it had been another time it would be a different story. I think she''s just a lot more gracious than MM was by setting her limits outside of my known limits.
 

TravelingGal

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Cehra, is there any ready-made setting out there that you would like? It really seems like custom may not be the right thing for you.

This just seems like it should not be this hard.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/12/2007 3:41:02 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
Oh no -- what a disappointment!

When you say everything is changed do you mean the *design* of the ring? Do you have any pictures or images you can post? And why would the metal change?
And I was all set to take the diamond AND the "emerald" to the post office to ship off to the appraiser as soon as I felt like this was going to move forward...

This is the proposed change to the prongs... and you can see this is actually MORE dainty than my proposal so I don''t know why she thinks mine isn''t going to support the stone... on the sides of mine the metal comes up half way up the diamond - the bowl is all but gone... she really thinks I need a hole for cleaning or whatever (convention maybe) under the stone, so she kept it solid under the stone but removed the walls of the bowl and just has the prongs.

I got a very strong feeling from her there was little to no negotiations on this. As you can see it would stll be pretty but this isn''t what I''m going for. I will write her now. Thanks for your support guys :)

cbproposedprongs.jpg
 

mrssalvo

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I''m sorry Cehra, i thought for sure you''d found a good match for your project. I think one thing I''m learning here is that there just isn''t always a way to get everything a consumer may want, even by going custom. at least if your using someone skilled enough to make it, they will never produce something that isn''t structually sound. You''ve got some very beautiful yet unique design ideas and IMO you really do need and artist to interpret and design it, unless you want to go to jewelry making school and learn to do it yourself
If you are 100% set on WG, can you not just ask her what needs to happen so it would be safe to make in WG? At some point I do think with custom you have to put some faith and trust in the designer or go with a build to print company and loose some the artistic flare and heirloom quality your looking for. That or realize you are not a good candidate for custom and keep searching for the perfect setting.
 

Gypsy

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It sounds like it would have to be a very long lunch.


I had some communication problems with Mark Turnowski regarding the baguette halo... complete opposite of yours, though... I never got the feeling that he didn''t want to help me. But he wanted something much less dainty than I wanted. But we were both able to compromise and get down to what was structurally possible, and yet, asthetically apprealling to me. I stopped the project, not because I didn''t want to work with him... because he was great... but because I moved to CA, and decided to try for an existing setting. Then we went to Joe Escrobar... and the saga began.

I am not surprised that since then he''s made some beautiful settings for PSers. For my baguette halo project, that thanks to Irina and the PSers had been completely designed down to a .T he adapted to being build to print. I would suggest giving him a call Cehra. He''s a GREAT guy. And the pieces he''s done on here are really incredible.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/12/2007 4:39:38 PM
Author: mrssalvo
I''m sorry Cehra, i thought for sure you''d found a good match for your project. I think one thing I''m learning here is that there just isn''t always a way to get everything a consumer may want, even by going custom. at least if your using someone skilled enough to make it, they will never produce something that isn''t structually sound. You''ve got some very beautiful yet unique design ideas and IMO you really do need and artist to interpret and design it, unless you want to go to jewelry making school and learn to do it yourself
If you are 100% set on WG, can you not just ask her what needs to happen so it would be safe to make in WG? At some point I do think with custom you have to put some faith and trust in the designer or go with a build to print company and loose some the artistic flare and heirloom quality your looking for. That or realize you are not a good candidate for custom and keep searching for the perfect setting.
mrs salvo - I''ve no doubt that my design is structurally sound as I see it... I just do not think that what she is basing that on is the same vision I have and I thought the wax would be clear enough but in this case it isn''t.

All the time we see cushion diamonds held by 4 prongs. I don''t see how adding 4 more prongs and adding not only a bar between them but a WALL between them is going to make the setting LESS sturdy. It doesn''t even make sense.
 

mrssalvo

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Date: 2/12/2007 4:47:34 PM
Author: Cehrabehra
Date: 2/12/2007 4:39:38 PM

Author: mrssalvo

I''m sorry Cehra, i thought for sure you''d found a good match for your project. I think one thing I''m learning here is that there just isn''t always a way to get everything a consumer may want, even by going custom. at least if your using someone skilled enough to make it, they will never produce something that isn''t structually sound. You''ve got some very beautiful yet unique design ideas and IMO you really do need and artist to interpret and design it, unless you want to go to jewelry making school and learn to do it yourself
If you are 100% set on WG, can you not just ask her what needs to happen so it would be safe to make in WG? At some point I do think with custom you have to put some faith and trust in the designer or go with a build to print company and loose some the artistic flare and heirloom quality your looking for. That or realize you are not a good candidate for custom and keep searching for the perfect setting.
mrs salvo - I''ve no doubt that my design is structurally sound as I see it... I just do not think that what she is basing that on is the same vision I have and I thought the wax would be clear enough but in this case it isn''t.


All the time we see cushion diamonds held by 4 prongs. I don''t see how adding 4 more prongs and adding not only a bar between them but a WALL between them is going to make the setting LESS sturdy. It doesn''t even make sense.

ok, I understand what your saying and that doesn''t make sense to me either.

if you get the feeling that she doesn''t want to tackle your project and come to a workable solution that I agree that she may not be the one and second gypsy to try Mark t. I''ve never worked with him but the folks who have all say he''s great, so maybe he''s the one to bring your vision to life..
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/12/2007 4:53:23 PM
Author: mrssalvo

ok, I understand what your saying and that doesn''t make sense to me either.

if you get the feeling that she doesn''t want to tackle your project and come to a workable solution that I agree that she may not be the one and second gypsy to try Mark t. I''ve never worked with him but the folks who have all say he''s great, so maybe he''s the one to bring your vision to life..
::deep breath:: ::sigh::

I am not in a huge hurry about this... I have plenty of time... there is no rush...

I have faith.

The wax was just about finished... I just need someone to complete the job. I''m not good at photoshop, but the only changes to the head that I want I''ve tried to show: Each of these wax prongs is well over 1mm and while the shape could use some refinement, the size is fine. I don''t see what is unsound about this in any way. The green line represents that I want the girdle lowered to about there when set. Does anyone see this as unable to hold a stone?? Does it need another bar across the front? Because I''m sure one could be added to my satisfaction without taking away everything I love about this head.

cbringtake1.jpg
 

Mokey

Shiny_Rock
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Jan 20, 2006
Messages
373
Cehra,
Here''s a thought. What if you incorporated a head kind of like the Vatche royal crown? Then, instead of doing a plain bar between the prongs you would have a decorative sort of prong for added strength. I know that would leave you with 6 prongs, but it is something to consider maybe.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/12/2007 6:30:15 PM
Author: Mokey
Cehra,
Here''s a thought. What if you incorporated a head kind of like the Vatche royal crown? Then, instead of doing a plain bar between the prongs you would have a decorative sort of prong for added strength. I know that would leave you with 6 prongs, but it is something to consider maybe.
honestly I don''t think the lack of bar was the issue - the sketch I got back was even more light and airy and spindley... however, if I were to add a bar I wouldn''t just add a straight bar, I wouldn''t make it straight - I would just have another rounded arch in there....
 

pyramid

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Date: 2/12/2007 6:40:34 PM
Author: Cehrabehra
if I were to add a bar I wouldn't just add a straight bar, I wouldn't make it straight - I would just have another rounded arch in there....
Isn't that what Ocean has done in her drawing, although she has changed the prongs at the end but is this so that the other arch can have space to fit in there?

I notice Wink said 'don't want the prongs too bulky', I wonder do you not want the claws bulky or is it their way of saying they think your design is bulky as it would be thicker in the gold? I mean it must be difficult being a designer because can they just say they don't like your design, but if they do they may not win the job?

Ofcourse, I know nothing about designing and what is structurally sound, but looking at your wax it looks to me that it is no worse than the four prongs we see all the time. The only thing I thought but I am probably thinking wrongly is that there is a lot of space at the back of the stone, (I know you have drawn the green line saying the girdle could be lowered though). One time a jeweller told me when I asked about prongs on top of one of my tiny diamonds, I had thought the prongs were not far enough up the crown and so may not hold the diamond securely and he said no diamond setting is mostly done from the back of the stone. Well I know I have read that the prongs should not touch the pavillion so I don't really know what they mean. I did notice though that Ocean's designs look closer to the pavillion just below the prongs than your wax, which I know has to have the prongs cut and the diamond set into them which will bring them closer. I think I am just thinking silly here maybe but just wondered if her drawings were closer for a reason than your wax seems to be.

Another thought I had, if you don't want platinum well you just don't, but I have read here the jewellers saying that white gold tends to just shear off when the prongs get worn and break whereas platinum is more likely to bend and be able to be bent back again. I know though there are many people with white gold prongs who are happy with them. However, you were planning on eight prongs. I wonder if they are treated more like a four prong split prong though in structural terms because they do not all start at the foot of the head.
 

mrssalvo

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cehra, I was just re-reading and noticed Wink saying you don''t want bulky prongs. So, if you are ok with or do want bulky prongs, can''t you just tell Ocean that and resume doing the design in WG? I can understand if they thought you wanted thin prongs that they needed them be in plat. but if that''s not the look your after, you want the bulk then maybe there''s no problem after all?
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/12/2007 6:48:26 PM
Author: Pyramid

Isn''t that what Ocean has done in her drawing, although she has changed the prongs at the end but is this so that the other arch can have space to fit in there?

I notice Wink said ''don''t want the prongs too bulky'', I wonder do you not want the claws bulky or is it their way of saying they think your design is bulky as it would be thicker in the gold? I mean it must be difficult being a designer because can they just say they don''t like your design, but if they do they may not win the job?
I don''t want gratuitously huge prongs, but I want them slightly larger than what is deemed safe - just in case. I don''t know where "bulky" came from - I''ll have to go reread wink''s post. I wrote to ocean but I haven''t heard from her nor wink today.

I want the head to have dainty DETAILS like tapering and give the ILLUSION that they''re thinner than they really are because part of their bulk is hidden in the "bowl" and where the two prongs are technically still one piece of metal - which for 7/8 of it is halfway up the diamond.

But in reality I want the claw of a medieval dragon reaching out of the earth and refusing to let go. I want a big head - a big mirrored bowl, with the diamond hovering over it grasped by 8 talons.

I don''t think her design was bad at *all* but it all but threw away the bowl other than a token "its connected underneath". The bowl is important to the design - it is part of the structure that holds the prongs as well as the mirrored reflective surface I have wanted since before I got my stone... before I got my stone I wanted a "prism chamber" and the mirrored surface was under the stone as a convex area under the gallery... kinda kinda like 3hearts ring except more mirrored... my stone "leaks" rainbows out the bottom and it''s a lot of fun to look at them. I know the bowl thing is considered by some to just be a dirt collector, but suzy and deco both love theirs and I really don''t want to lose it... yeah if you lose it the prongs aren''t going to be able to float in midair - sure - that''s not structurally sound... I have failed to get my concept across... perhaps I should have sent her more than 2 photos of the wax.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 2/12/2007 6:58:46 PM
Author: mrssalvo
cehra, I was just re-reading and noticed Wink saying you don''t want bulky prongs. So, if you are ok with or do want bulky prongs, can''t you just tell Ocean that and resume doing the design in WG? I can understand if they thought you wanted thin prongs that they needed them be in plat. but if that''s not the look your after, you want the bulk then maybe there''s no problem after all?
I just went over the presentation that I sent to them and what I said about prongs is this (direct c&p):

The picture below is of the "bowl" under the stone - I want this area super very mega high polished mirror finish. What isn''t working in this picture is the location of the prongs - the + sections in the corner should be set a little lower/deeper so that some of the girdle will show between the prongs. I don''t want double prongs - I want it truly to be 8 prongs. I would like the prongs to be as thin as possible WITHOUT sacrificing structure. Meaning – if you think X is safe, I want X+1 haha. I don’t want them gratuitously thick, but I’d like them to be on the industrial side of dainty. I figure the parts of the U and V under the prongs can be whatever size since it is actually a solid bowl and you can give it the illusion of being whatever size you want. So the prongs above those I want to do what you can and make the rest ‘fit’.
 

pyramid

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Maybe you already know this, but during Paul Slegers Webinar tonight Wink came in for a short time and said he had to cancel his WinkTV tonight at 6pm to drive his daughter to the airport, he also said he was very busy at his shop because of his being off on Friday and not being in during the weekend.

I know nothing about structurally sound or anything but looking at your wax where the prong is a piece of metal scooping to make another prong, horizontally, if these prongs were caught is that less strong than four prongs coming from the foot of the head straight up to the edge of the diamond. I don't know but to me it seems less strong, I also feel that way about the prong the Dvatche Royal Crown uses. After looking more at your wax I notice that the four prongs are all on the front and back sides of the ring and there is no support from the ends of the ring except to the bowl. So although four prongs it is only supporting two of the four sides of the stone is it not. Ocean probably knows things like this from her education, did she mention anything about the reasons the prongs were not structurally sound apart from the metal type?

From the way you are describing your design with dragons etc. it makes me think you need an artist to design this ring too as the others have said. I am in the UK so don't know the terms over there but is Ocean an artist in the same way people like Leon Mege are, is an artist and a designer different? Ofcourse, as some have said some artists do not want input they want to do their thing which is no use as you do want to have a large part in the say of the design.
 

Beacon

Ideal_Rock
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2,037
Oh Cehra I am so sorry it''s not going as you hoped!

The drawing you showed does look very beautiful - I hope you and the jeweler can work it out.

I like your attitude - no rush, not stressing yourself. It''ll come together after a while. I hope it does soon, cause I for one am really keen to see that beautiful stone in an ring!

Good luck with the project.
 
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