Difference''s in pave rings that are handmade vs. cast?

[mrssalvo]

In light of this recent thread I was wondering if maybe the experts can chime in on the differences between handmade pave and cast peices and if this does or does not have anything to do with this type of thing occuring. Is it random and can happen to any piece handmade or not? I understand that pave rings are more delicate and one should be careful when wearing them no matter how they are made. I am just curious if type of piece is stuctually stronger because of how it''s made. I know handmade is normally more expensive but thought that was do to the labor, not just materials. Any, I would love it if those familiar could help educate me

Thanks

 

[Shay37]

Mrs. S, forgive me as I am not an expert. I will just add my experience with thin pave in plat, if you don''t mind. My ring was a prototype, and Brian the cutter was adamant that I almost "abuse" the ring if you will. He had me do things wearing it that I really didn''t want to do. He did this to see if it would and could indeed hold up to demands placed on that style of setting. I had to (gasp) wash dishes and do housecleaning in it. Ordinarily, I would have taken off my ring as I don''t like them gummed up. On the other hand, I would have ordinarily worn it to work, which is hysterical considering that I carry heavy equipment and a briefcase and a laptop case to work in. I know. It doesn''t make sense. But I am OCD when it comes to my ring being clean. (there are others here. You know who you are)

I was not worried about the lifting because I make a habit of doing it in such a way that my ring doesn''t take the brunt.

Bottom line: I do not know if my experience with 2mm plat with pave is typical, but I do know that I will be having another one made. HTH If I have chimed in unwantedly (I made that word up), please disregard.

shay

 

[mrssalvo]

thanks shay. I appreciate your feedback. I''m hoping an expert will jump also and explain the details of the process and the implications if there are any.

 

[princessv]

I''m no expert but here''s my experience with pave and casting vs. handmade. The majority of the pave on my ring is handmade and the only pave part that was casted was the very top of the halo. Quest told me that handmade does take alot more time but overall tends to be just as if not more secure than casting. Just think about all the beautiful 1920s rings where pave has lasted decades. I examined my ring really closely with a loupe and even all those highly magnified pictures that they take. Honestly, I can''t tell the difference between the handmade and the pave that was cast. I can however see in the super magnified pictures that the appraiser took where some of the miligraining and pave was a little off on the halo but is not detectable with just the human eye.

Its definitely not uncommon for pave to fall out but as far as DL''s ring I''ve never even seen anything like that!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/28/2006 7:42:40 PM
Author: Princess V
I'm no expert but here's my experience with pave and casting vs. handmade. The majority of the pave on my ring is handmade and the only pave part that was casted was the very top of the halo.

What do you mean? Quest doesn't show wax or rough castings (not that they should) and from the CAD sent on occasion it looks like only the seats are marked on the wax...


Anyway, I am not sure what is the official line between cat and handmade. For once, any pave has to sit on something and that can be a cast shape - does that make the pave non 'handmade'? Whatever...

The difference I would expect between fast-track pave (whatever the process is) and the good stuff, is about how tight the stones are. How stable... not sure there is a whole lot of difference between decent execution of whatever method. It looks like the hand raised beads are smaller than those produced along with the casting, and this dictates how tightly packed the pave is. I doubt that just the way of doing things means good or bad quality off the bat - what else is new?

There's enough pave work around this forum to have samples of a few ways of doing things. Remember that 4 cts ring by Mark Morell? The pave was set in cast beads (the setting was shown empty - with all those tiny spikes looking like a caterpillar). Art of Platinum does it the old way. Wouldn't it sound a bit off to say that one is great and the other not?

 

[strmrdr]

The biggest difference between the old pave and the new style is the amount of metal holding the stones in place.
Iv compared them side by side in person and the older style had a lot more metal holding them in place.

When you swiss cheese a setting its going to be weak no matter how its made.
Would it have made a difference with that ring... cant say but if the material itself gave way and it looks like it did then no it would not make much difference.

 

[princessv]

Ana they did send me wax pictures. I think they will only if you ask. The only area where pave was put was at the very top of the halo.

I''m not really sure where the line ends between handmade and cast.

It does get blurry!

 

[denverappraiser]

Traditional pave and cast pave are decidedly different techniques.

With traditional pave setting, the jeweler will carefully lay out their pattern on the metal and scratch guide lines to indicate where each stone will go. A conical hole for the first stone is drilled an a seat is cut into the lip of it that fits the girdle exactly. They will then use a small, hand held chisel called a graver to make a deep scratch right next to the stone. This will raise a little burr of metal from the surface and leave a gouge where the burr used to be. This burr is going to be the metal that forms the first bead. The graver is also pushing metal towards the stone so that it’s held in place by pressure from the side, not just the top. The hole for the next stone will be drilled into the space where the gouge was left when the bead was raised. The space between the beads is cut away with a another graver and the little burrs are mashed into a round bead using a tool that looks like an ice pick with a concave pit right on the point called a beading tool. It’s quite a bit of work and requires a very detail oriented person to get it right. Small errors tend to compound as the pattern expands. When done properly, it’s remarkably secure. The stones are held in from the sides (because of the sideways pressure of the graver), from the top (because of the bead) and from the bottom (because the hole is conical). The end results is clearly better. The problem is that it takes an enormous amount of practice to get good at it, it’s extremely time consuming and, when done badly, it looks like crap and the stones fall out.

Modern pave is done by carving the pattern of beads directly into the wax in the first place. Usually this is with a CAD system so the patterning of the beads can be perfect. After the piece is cast, a seat is cut in the side of each bead with a rotary tool and the bead is mashed down on top with a beading tool. This has both advantages and disadvantages. For starters, it’s a whole lot easier to do. This translates into a whole lot less money for the consumer. Secondly, the patterning can be perfect, which is cool and leads to designs like the modern halo rings that are so popular. Lastly, it’s possible to set fragile stones like emeralds that never would have held up to the old methods. The downside is that the beads are really what hold in the stone instead of this sideways pressure and it’s a whole lot easier to disguise sloppy work or other craftsmanship problems. If a bead breaks you lose a stone.

All in all, the modern approach is winning out. Traditional pave is becoming a lost art, rather like traditional hand engraving. The price of ‘old school’ type work is on the rise because the few people who can do it rightly feel that they deserve more money for their talents. Modern designers are making pieces that are best done with the modern methods because it’s easier to actually produce the pieces, it’s easier to hire or train workers with the appropriate skills and it allows them to charge prices that consumers are actually willing to pay.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[widget]

THANK YOU Neil!!! Very interesting!

What is the history/timeline of traditional pave and cast pave? Can one assume that the pave work in older pieces (''20s-''30s) is always hand done?

Thanks...
widget

 

[denverappraiser]

Widget,

Traditional pave can, and often was, done on cast pieces so it’s not really an either/or sort of question. The difference is carving the beads into the original wax model. I learned to do this back in the 70’s but hand carving beads accurately is almost as difficult as doing the pave by hand so there wasn’t really all that much savings. This really started to become popular with the rise of CAD/CAM type work in the 90’s. For manufactured piece, meaning pieces where multiple copies of the same item are cast from the same mold, it has been possible to do this more or less forever but there have been changes since the 80’s in both molding and casting technology that make it work a whole lot better. For the most part, anything done before about 1970 will be the traditional approach and most since the 1990’s will be the new approach. The shop I was working in started casting the beads on certain jobs in about 1990 but they continue with both approaches to this day depending on the customer requirements. For one-of-a-kind type work, almost everything before about 2000 will have been done using the old techniques.

The easiest way to tell the difference is to look carefully at the metal between the beads. In the traditional method, this will be a cut surface. With the modern methods it will be a cast surface. There are also clues from the back because you can tell the difference between a drilled hole and a hole that was cast in place.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[mepearl53]

I have a lot of experience with the handmade pave rings. In this case a piece of metal is laid out and shaped by hand annealing or shaping by hammering the metal to a very dense degree. The method is similar to what Neil said above. The piece can be cast or made by hand using cold hard stock ( Non cast and never liquefied) except in the alloying process. Structurally the non cast and die struck is the finest and most stable for their are no week points and we''ll use rings for the analogy. We should add micro pave to the type of setting also with traditional pave. This is where 4 tiny prongs are raised with a tool other than a graver to produce round prongs. These can be shared prongs with the diamond adjacent to it or on a single stone.

Advantages of handmade as described above: Durability, longevity, strength of beads and prongs. Well made pieces you will almost never see stress fractures and the diamonds are more secure because you are not bending metal to go over the diamonds. As with any piece the expertise of the jeweler is of utmost consideration.

Disadvantages: Extremely time consuming to make and very expensive. Some can take 2 to 4 weeks of additional time.

Casting/cad cam

Advantages: Time of production is quicker and pricing.

Disadvantages: Depending on the casting equipment items can be pourris depending on the velocity the metal is slammed into the mold. Stress fractures from pressure applied to the ring. Cast prongs are bent so problems with the vertical angle where they are bent can sometimes be sheared off. Longevity and durability.

This could be a very long response but is just a quick overview. One more thing of note. Using either method of production the metal used should always be refined. We see problems occur when a piece has been melted down from a previous piece and recast. The metals structure changes here and additional problems almost always happen.

 

[mrssalvo]

Thank you all so much for you replies. I now have a better understand of both as well as the pros and cons of both. It also helps explain why the modern pave techniques seem to be more troublesome albeit cheaper, even though I like the idea of the "perfection" that can be achieved by casting. My grandmother had a pave plat. ring that was about 100 years old. she inherited it 60 years ago and wore it all the time. I don't think she ever took it off, not even for a good cleaning

. Anyway, she cooked, cleaned, did her gardening, everything and never lost a stone. When my parents took it to a jeweler a couple of years ago to sell

the jeweler said all it needed was a good cleaning and polish, the entire ring was perfectly intact and so well made. Anyway, I guess with our temporary societly longevity in an e-ring might not be as important as price but it seems to me the durability of pave might be an example of getting what you pay for

 

[mrssalvo]

pave article by Leon Mege

 

[solange]

Is the Tiffany Legacy setting hand made or cast?

 

[innerkitten]

So does anyone still do it the old way?

This explains why the old stuff lasts so well. It was all hand done.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 6/8/2006 5:22:16 PM
Author: innerkitten
So does anyone still do it the old way?


This explains why the old stuff lasts so well. It was all hand done.

yes, Leon Mege does it the old way. Also, many designer settings, michael b, michael beaudry, daniel K etc. are all handmade..