Difference in GIA vs EGL for an OEC?

[anners11]

Hello! Like many around here I have absolutely fallen in love with OECs and am trying to learn as much as possible. I am fairly new around these parts but have read enough to know that there is a huge difference between GIA and EGL when it comes to MRB. However, it seems that the majority of OECs are EGL certified, if anything. I have come across some OECs that are GIA certified and got to wondering if EGL or GIA was a "better" certification. My instincts tell me that it's more of a look at the stone, see how it performs, see if you like it and make a decision situation. It seems that OECs have a personality all their own (which I love) and you probably can't predict what an OEC will do without seeing it. This just gives me an excuse to do "research" and look at a lot of sparkles Any opinions or experiences would be appreciated!

 

[ariel144]

One good reason for certification through EGL for an OEC, which was posted on another thread a while back was for insurance purposes, something to do with a higher grade, but I can't remember for certain the exact reason. I had never thought of that before. Had something to do with a higher replacement cost if the stone was lost. Maybe someone else will recall that. But sometimes GIA will not recognize an OEC as an Old European Brilliant and grade the cut based on a Round Brilliant and thus it can get rated fair/poor in cut, symmetry and polish.

I'm sure others can have better answers but this is what I can recall.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Insurance companies LOVE to get inflated jewelry appraisals.
This way they get to charge higher premiums.
Remember, in case of loss, they're replacing the item, NOT paying the amount listed on the appraisal.
So, if one insures an EGL graded diamond based on the stated ( and inflated) appraisal value on the report, the consumer looses.

Misgraded diamonds are just that- graded incorrectly.
it does not make it a bad diamond by any means, but without accurate grading a consumer is far more likely to get ripped off.
As far as calling a stone OMB- or not, and that being a weakness of GIA reports...I don't find that to be the case.

Anners- A lot of sellers of older diamonds use EGL reports- however that does not assist the consumer in the long run.
If it's a veryu low colored- and lower priced diamond, it's far less of an issue.
For example, a 2ct diamond for $10k might not have a GIA report- and it might be no problem.
A $20,000 2 ct with no GIA report= BIG problem.

 

[distracts]

One good reason for certification through EGL for an OEC, which was posted on another thread a while back was for insurance purposes, something to do with a higher grade, but I can't remember for certain the exact reason. I had never thought of that before. Had something to do with a higher replacement cost if the stone was lost. Maybe someone else will recall that. But sometimes GIA will not recognize an OEC as an Old European Brilliant and grade the cut based on a Round Brilliant and thus it can get rated fair/poor in cut, symmetry and polish.

I'm sure others can have better answers but this is what I can recall.

Actually yeah the reason wasn't due to the higher grade but because EGL recognizes them as a separate, non-round brilliant cut. GIA has no "Old European Brilliant" category, so they are always graded as Round Brilliants and dinged on cut, symmetry, and polish. As well as the fact that if you are using the grading for insurance replacement, without separate appraisal documentation you may have a more difficult time getting it replaced with another old european cut, whereas the EGL report will identify it as such.

The other reason everyone uses EGL for OECs is that... everyone uses EGL for OECs. Vendors who don't are at a disadvantage among uneducated consumers who think they can get the same diamond grades for less from everyone else who uses EGL. Kind of lame, but if it hurts their business to use GIA grading on OECs, I can't blame them.

With that said, you can certainly have an OEC you are really interested in either independently appraised or sent to GIA.

 

[plummiecat]

GIA does label stones as Old European Brilliant as the shape and cutting style on their certs.

 

[Gypsy]

GIA has no "Old European Brilliant" category, so they are always graded as Round Brilliants and dinged on cut, symmetry, and polish.

Sorry distracts. This is inaccurate. GIA does indeed have an Old European Brilliant or European Brilliant category. The reason more stones aren't sent to it is because the requirements for what they consider one of these is WAY WAY too strict. The angles, specifically and the star and pavilion facet requirements only fit a small portion of what we on PS recognize as OECs. In fact the majority of the most favored stones on PS-- Peigi's, Dreamers, Surf Girls, Mara's would not be graded as OECs by the GIA, but rather as poorly cut rounds.

Since GIA's poorly cut rounds are discounted for their cut... it doesn't make sense to send your stone there and have it devalued. That's why it's sent to EGL because FOR ONCE EGL's looser grading guidelines are actually better than the GIAs. With relation to what stones qualify as OECs under the EGL... it's a much broader range of stones... and much more accurate.

So... yes, there are some OEC GIAs but they are hard to find because the majority of stones that are OECs are not going to be RECOGNIZED by the GIA as OECs, so knowing that vendors don't send them there for the grading.

 

[distracts]

GIA has no "Old European Brilliant" category, so they are always graded as Round Brilliants and dinged on cut, symmetry, and polish.

Sorry distracts. This is inaccurate. GIA does indeed have an Old European Brilliant or European Brilliant category. The reason more stones aren't sent to it is because the requirements for what they consider one of these is WAY WAY too strict. The angles, specifically and the star and pavilion facet requirements only fit a small portion of what we on PS recognize as OECs. In fact the majority of the most favored stones on PS-- Peigi's, Dreamers, Surf Girls, Mara's would not be graded as OECs by the GIA, but rather as poorly cut rounds.

Since GIA's poorly cut rounds are discounted for their cut... it doesn't make sense to send your stone there and have it devalued. That's why it's sent to EGL because FOR ONCE EGL's looser grading guidelines are actually better than the GIAs. With relation to what stones qualify as OECs under the EGL... it's a much broader range of stones... and much more accurate.

So... yes, there are some OEC GIAs but they are hard to find because the majority of stones that are OECs are not going to be RECOGNIZED by the GIA as OECs, so knowing that vendors don't send them there for the grading.

Okay, cool. I didn't know that (obviously). Thanks for the info!

 

[anners11]

Thanks for the replies!

So does the fact that an OEC meets the requirements to be considered an Old European Brilliant by the GIA say anything about its performance?

And ironically enough, that's the exact GIA report that got me thinking about this. It looks like a great stone and seems to be priced pretty well. But I don't know much, which is why I'm asking questions

 

[Gypsy]

Thanks for the replies!

So does the fact that an OEC meets the requirements to be considered an Old European Brilliant by the GIA say anything about its performance?

I don't know what it means about it's performance. I'm sure it means something... just not sure what.

distracts... That's how we learn.

 

[AN0NYM0US]

The reason more stones aren't sent to it is because the requirements for what they consider one of these is WAY WAY too strict. The angles, specifically and the star and pavilion facet requirements only fit a small portion of what we on PS recognize as OECs

Out of curiosity what are the crown angles and star and pavilion facet requirements?

 

[Mara]

Thanks for the replies!

So does the fact that an OEC meets the requirements to be considered an Old European Brilliant by the GIA say anything about its performance?

And ironically enough, that's the exact GIA report that got me thinking about this. It looks like a great stone and seems to be priced pretty well. But I don't know much, which is why I'm asking questions

I don't know what their requirements are but I would say no to this if you are truly an old stone cut lover. There's so much that is unique about these stones, they can't be forced into a cookie cutter to try to make a fantastic looking OEC. If you want something that is so precisely cut to be the best cut OEC that rough could ever be, then take a look at the AVR/AVC line from GOG because those are precision cut modern stones cut to look like old europeans and cushions. I've seen stones that have numbers that score a 8 or something ridic on the HCA but yet it's an amazing old stone. And also, old mine cuts, which are cushiony up top and usually fairly out of round would fare horribly most likely at GIA but yet are so fiery and beautiful in person.

It's interesting because being 'born and raised' on Pricescope, you are taught that EGL is da debil! So to fall in love with an OEC and start to have to take into considering EGL (and not just one lab of EGL but Israel, LA, NY etc, they all grade differently!) when you are looking at stones, can be very confusing. I don't buy old stones by paper, I buy by my own eye. I was considering two stones from OWD and one had a cert, and I think the other may not have, the fact I don't even remember says something! Because that paper didn't mean a whole much to me. In fact, my 'K' NY EGL is more like an M most likely if not even an N depending on the grading day at GIA...but all that did was give me a slight basis on where to start my search. I even thought the purported 'L' I looked at almost looked whiter in some lights..and maybe it did.

Anyway long story short, I wouldn't throw an old stone out of bed with a GIA or EGL cert OR even a stone without one. I'd use your eyes and the stone in different lighting to gauge your reaction to it and if you want to get paperwork on it, send it to get certed OR send it to someone like Dave Atlas who can give you an appraisal on the stone for insurance (and I hear his color/clarity is fairly strict as well).

 

[Dreamer_D]

Very few old cuts have GIA reports. Many have EGL. But most have no reports at all.

I sort of think you have to throw out all the rules you know about lab reports when it comes to old cuts.

ETA: To elaborate, one important reason why I think lab reports are not essential to buying an old cut is because while they will give a good benchmark for color and clarity -- or THE benchmark if its GIA -- they do not tell you *anything* about cut quality. Like RBs, the price of old cuts is determined in part by cut quality, and lab reports can't help you with evaluating that factor (beyond the proportions thy provide and even those only help a little).

 

[AN0NYM0US]

Very few old cuts have GIA reports. Many have EGL. But most have no reports at all.

I sort of think you have to throw out all the rules you know about lab reports when it comes to old cuts.

ETA: To elaborate, one important reason why I think lab reports are not essential to buying an old cut is because while they will give a good benchmark for color and clarity -- or THE benchmark if its GIA -- they do not tell you *anything* about cut quality. Like RBs, the price of old cuts is determined in part by cut quality, and lab reports can't help you with evaluating that factor (beyond the proportions thy provide and even those only help a little).

Would you say this is also true for fancy shapes?

 

[jerichosmom]

I bought my 3.55 OEC without looking at the cert. In fact I just got the cert last week after owning the stone for 4 years! I'm probably not the norm here on PS but I just went by what my eyes were telling me. Also my camera lens...I took a ton of pictures on my first and only "visit" and went home and reviewed them. There wasn't a bad angle anywhere...kinda like a supermodel! However, that was 4 years ago when old cuts were not discussed here in length as they are today and so when I popped back onto PS after a long absence, all the talk about certification had me a little freaked out. I was ready to run out and get a GIA cert just to put my mind at ease....only to realize that it wouldn't change how my diamond performed. My diamond's numbers are very deceiving...it faces up HUGE for it's carat size..(it's .30 pts smaller than ForteKitty's but has a bigger spread) and if I only went by numbers on the cert I probably wouldn't have even bothered.

BTW: Ari at SS showed me non-certed stones in the 3+ ct range. I kinda scoffed...but really, he said it just costed $75/carat and 3 weeks (back in 200 to get a cert. After that I kept an open mind towards certs and just used my eyes. I don't walk around with the cert on my finger so I don't really care.

 

[Gypsy]

The reason more stones aren't sent to it is because the requirements for what they consider one of these is WAY WAY too strict. The angles, specifically and the star and pavilion facet requirements only fit a small portion of what we on PS recognize as OECs

Out of curiosity what are the crown angles and star and pavilion facet requirements?

I don't recall honestly. They were posted in a link to the GIA. I'm sure you can find them on there if you are interested!

 

[CharmyPoo]

I sent my OEC to EGL and got a report (took one day and under $100). Steven Kirsch sent it to GIA (has taken over 2 weeks so far) for me so I am excited to get the results back and compare. This was a purely educational exercise for me.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Very few old cuts have GIA reports. Many have EGL. But most have no reports at all.

I sort of think you have to throw out all the rules you know about lab reports when it comes to old cuts.

ETA: To elaborate, one important reason why I think lab reports are not essential to buying an old cut is because while they will give a good benchmark for color and clarity -- or THE benchmark if its GIA -- they do not tell you *anything* about cut quality. Like RBs, the price of old cuts is determined in part by cut quality, and lab reports can't help you with evaluating that factor (beyond the proportions thy provide and even those only help a little).

Would you say this is also true for fancy shapes?

I am not really familiar with market dynamics of fancies, but my instinct is saying it is not exactly the same. Modern cut fancies, with a few exceptions (e.g., AVCs) are readily available and being cut all the time. Well cut examples are easy to find and there are consentually agreed upon standards for "well cut" (broadly speaking).

In contrast, the old cut market is limited in that there are only a certain number of old cuts available for sale at any given time, and there will never be more cut. So rarity is an overall characteristic of the market, which is further limited if one desires a particular style of old cut or desires a particular look to their diamond. Its further limited if you want a larger carat stone because many olf cuts over the 1.5ct mark, and certainly over the 2ct mark, were recut into MRBs are some point in their life. So there could literally be only a handful of stones in the entire old cut market with certain desirable characteristics, including cut quality. Vendors who happen to have one of those desireable and rare stones can almost charge what they want for them, and people will pay. That variable is simply not relfected on any lab report.

I have only bought on the secondary market but if I was paying full retail I would want a lab report or an appraisal by someone like Dave Atlas to ensure I was able to do *some* comparisons with comps when assessing value. But then I would also have to adjust it by my own personal desire for the type of diamond I was considering, and the rarity of the cut style, before I reached any firm conclusions. I am willing to pay more for a certain style of cut because it is the type I like and I know how incredibly rare certain types of old cuts are.

 

[Haven]

I sent my OEC to EGL and got a report (took one day and under $100). Steven Kirsch sent it to GIA (has taken over 2 weeks so far) for me so I am excited to get the results back and compare. This was a purely educational exercise for me.

Ooh, I can't wait to see the comparison!

 

[GamGam]

"GIA has no "Old European Brilliant" category, so they are always graded as Round Brilliants..."
This statement is not true. I have a GIA graded stone(graded April 06, 2011,) and the Shape and Cutting Style is Old European Brilliant.