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Did I pay too much?

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davismi2

Rough_Rock
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Mar 7, 2009
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8
Hey All,
I''ve been using this site quite a bit (great resource), trying to educate myself about diamonds, but this is my first time posting.
I just recently bought an engagement ring for my girlfriend, and now I''m having some doubts.
I was under at tighter schedule than I''d like due to the fact that I just got the money to pay for the stone etc...and we''re going on a cruise next week and I''d like to pop the question while on vacation.

I looked at a few stones, mabye 5 or 6, and wasn''t happy with what I saw. Great looking, but obvious inclusions (in my opinion) etc...
The jewler I went through found one for me that I loved, when I saw it in the store. When I saw it in the store it was obviously under "THE" best lighting conditions, so the stone sparkled and had fire like I''d never seen before. I thought it was perfect. Looking under a 10x loop I couldn''t see one inclusion or flaw, it''s a very, very clean stone.
So I had it set, it was delivered...and now, looking at it under normal lighting conditions...the stone is very bright, very clean, very white face up, but it doesn''t have the fire and scintillation that I''d like (or that it had when I viewed it) and in some angles I see a faint yellow tint..which kind of bothers me. I think I''d like an H or a G, but of course that''s more $, and probably out of my league.

The specs are:

weight: 1.50
clarity: VS1
color: I
GIA grade:
cut: Excellent
symmetry: Excellent
polish: Excellent
depth: 61.1
table: 60
crown angle: 35
pavillion angle: 41.2
cutlet: none
flourescence: none

HCA rating of:

Factor Grade
Light Return Very Good
Fire Fair
Scintillation Fair
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 4.3 - Good - Only if price is your main criterion



So, although the stone is very pretty, clean etc...it has a larger table size so it doesn'' t have the fire and sparkle I was hoping for. It has some great "brilliance" (right term?), very bright, but again it''s not like what I saw in the store. Just nervous that I jumped the gun on this one and could''ve done better if I''d looked around more.

Price I paid for the stone is 12,000. Could I have gotten a "better", whiter, more firey stone for my money? Did I overpay? BTW, I did get a little more than half off the setting, and supposedly the stone appraises for 18K.

Thank you very much, -Dave

 

davismi2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8
Hey NeatFreak,

Thanks for the response... Yeah, looks like an awesome stone... But where i get confused is GIA doesn''t have an Ideal cut grade, only Excellent, and the stone I bought is graded EX/EX/EX for cut, symm, polish.
So, looking at the stats I put up, what would flag this as a bad cut?
Yeah, I have a 30 day return poicy... Had to go through a retailer because I had to finance part of the purchase price.

Thank you very much, -Dave
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
24,427
Well, as neat pointed out, it's certainly not cut the best. Do you feel like returning it? is that an option?

The reason it's more brilliant with less fire is because it's what is known as a 60/60. That means a measurement of 60 for table and depth (or close to). That is not a bad thing per se, just different. Some like them, some don't. However, it's also going into steep/deep land, where the crown/pavilion combo can have some minor to major light leakage under the table. Without seeing pics, it's hard to say.


You could do better, as the stone neat posted points out. That's an extremely well cut stone, for less.

ETA, posting at the same time!
 

neatfreak

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
14,167
Date: 3/7/2009 1:41:35 PM
Author: davismi2
Hey NeatFreak,


Thanks for the response... Yeah, looks like an awesome stone... But where i get confused is GIA doesn''t have an Ideal cut grade, only Excellent, and the stone I bought is graded EX/EX/EX for cut, symm, polish.

So, looking at the stats I put up, what would flag this as a bad cut?

Yeah, I have a 30 day return poicy... Had to go through a retailer because I had to finance part of the purchase price.


Thank you very much, -Dave
You are right, I am putting my own term here calling it ideal. Unfortunately not all GIA Ex stones are equal. Just look at the HCA scores. You want something below 2, which mine scores. Yours is well above that indicating that it won''t really perform very well.

Personally I would return it. Ellen gave a great explanation of why you can do better.
 

davismi2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8
Ellen,

Thank you... I''ve been playing with the idea of returning it, but I''m not sure if I''m being overly picky or not. She loves the setting, it was her favorite. I''m very picky/anal about things and I keep staring at it, and I think I may be over-reacting or expecting too much.

But, are you in agreement I overpaid? I really trusted the jewler I was working with and thought I was getting a good deal, till I got it home and did some real research looking at the numbers.

Not exactly sure what I should do, but I''ll try to post some pics. What kind of pics would be most appropriate?

Thanks again, -Dave
 

neatfreak

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
14,167
If I may be direct, if you are unhappy now you will always look at that stone and be unhappy. Better to fix it while you can. If you can link us to the setting I am sure we can find the same thing for you.

We call this being "mind clean" about a stone. Trust me, if it bothers you now it will always nag you.
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
24,427
Date: 3/7/2009 1:55:42 PM
Author: davismi2
Ellen,

Thank you... I''ve been playing with the idea of returning it, but I''m not sure if I''m being overly picky or not. She loves the setting, it was her favorite. I''m very picky/anal about things and I keep staring at it, and I think I may be over-reacting or expecting too much.

But, are you in agreement I overpaid? I really trusted the jewler I was working with and thought I was getting a good deal, till I got it home and did some real research looking at the numbers.

Not exactly sure what I should do, but I''ll try to post some pics. What kind of pics would be most appropriate?

Thanks again, -Dave
It''s hard to say for sure. Searching for those specs, I can''t find anything similar, that has a grading report with it to show angles (price is based on cut too). However, retailers will always be more than online.

As for pics, straight on in the face up postion are best, as close as you can get, without getting out of focus, they need to be clear and crisp, not blurry. However, what I think I''d like to see more than pics, is for you to take it to an independant appraiser, that is one who doesn''t sell jewelry. They will give you a fair, unbiased opinion of the stone, and will let you know if you got a good price or not. It really needs to be seen in person.
 

phoenixgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 20, 2003
Messages
3,369
I think you should return it. Ask for an AGS0 stone (or equivalent).

I have a non-ideal stone I inherited from my grandmother. I have to keep it super clean to sparkle at all. Still, when I look at it with its big table and obvious light loss, I wish I could have a better cut stone. But mine was free (to us) and comes with sentimental value . . . if I had paid $12k for it, I would be returning it this instant.

There are two similar stones here on the PS search engine right now:

1.50 I VS1 GIA Certed, 59% table, 60% depth, med. blue flourescence, price range $8200 to $9450*
1.50 I VS1 GIA Certed, 60% table, 60.3% depth, no flourescence, price range $10,000 to $11,400*

In both cases, the highest price is one vendor, Angara, who does not seem to know/care how much the other vendors are listing the stone for. They have the highest price by $500 and $1,000 respectively compared to the half a dozen vendors carrying the stone. The ranges are more like $8200-$9000 and $10,000-$10,400 without Angara.

Honestly, I don''t think the markup you paid to walk into a store and receive personal service was obscene. You can''t expect your local jeweler to sell stones for the same prices as internet vendors with lower overhead. It''s also not the jeweler''s fault that the GIA has an "excellent" range which sometimes includes some unfavorable angle combinations. But the question remains . . . will you happy with your stone at any price? I personally would get a better cut now that you know the difference.
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
42,064
Ditto the ladies, a diamond with a better angle combo at least could be a better choice for you.
 

davismi2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8
Yeah, you all pretty much confirmed what I was feeling...just needed the affirmation, thanks. It''s like anything else, once I see it I''ll always see it. I''ll have to head back to the jewler soon...hopefully they can find something else for me. Like I said, I can''t buy anything online right now, have to finance some of the payment...and the online wholesalers/retailers I''ve seen don''t offer financing.
Kinda feel bad, the guy I bought it from really honestly thought he was giving me a great deal, friend of a friend type thing and I''ve dealt with him a bunch in the past.

Thanks for all the help, -Dave
 

phoenixgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 20, 2003
Messages
3,369
Good luck! Let us know what you get (and take pretty pictures so we can drool)!
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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32,396
Date: 3/7/2009 3:14:43 PM
Author: davismi2
Yeah, you all pretty much confirmed what I was feeling...just needed the affirmation, thanks. It's like anything else, once I see it I'll always see it. I'll have to head back to the jewler soon...hopefully they can find something else for me. Like I said, I can't buy anything online right now, have to finance some of the payment...and the online wholesalers/retailers I've seen don't offer financing.
Kinda feel bad, the guy I bought it from really honestly thought he was giving me a great deal, friend of a friend type thing and I've dealt with him a bunch in the past.

Thanks for all the help, -Dave
sure you can. charge it on a low interest rate CC
still not a good idea to get in debt on a diamond.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,371
Dave,
I agree with those who have mentioned that walking into a retail store and buying a diamond in person justifies a price difference. Some people want to have a store to go to, as opposed to buying online, and stores cost a lot of money.

I also would not judge the person who sold you the stone harshly. Based on the info given, I don''t think he did anything at all to indicate you did not get a good deal.
A stone with a smaller table would also look different when you got it away from bright lights in the store.
Still, if you are unhappy, go back and get something different.

I also strong;ly second DF''s sentiment about going into debt to buy a diamond.
 

davismi2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8
Hey Rocky,

Oh, no I totally agree...retail store is always going to be more. He is a really nice guy, I don''t hold anything against him, he was honestly trying to help me out...I''ve dealt with him a bunch in th past...great guy.
I looked at it a lot over the weekend, I''ll take some pictures and post them...but it really is a beautiful stone, I think I''m just being very critical...and the more I stare at it the more critical I become. I showed it to a few people and they said I''d be stupid to return it, that it''s too nice.
I''ll post a few pics, and see what you guys think...

Thanks, -Dave
 

neatfreak

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
14,167
Date: 3/9/2009 1:03:03 PM
Author: davismi2
Hey Rocky,


Oh, no I totally agree...retail store is always going to be more. He is a really nice guy, I don''t hold anything against him, he was honestly trying to help me out...I''ve dealt with him a bunch in th past...great guy.

I looked at it a lot over the weekend, I''ll take some pictures and post them...but it really is a beautiful stone, I think I''m just being very critical...and the more I stare at it the more critical I become. I showed it to a few people and they said I''d be stupid to return it, that it''s too nice.

I''ll post a few pics, and see what you guys think...


Thanks, -Dave
Why would you be stupid to return it if you overpaid?
 

davismi2

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
8
Well, I hadn''t told them how much I paid..., they were just saying how nice they thought it was. Going to see what else they have and what they can do for me.

Thanks, -Dave
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
24,427
If you are liking the look of the stone and want to keep it, no problem. But please, get it independantly appraised to make sure it is what you paid for, and the price is right.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
8,371
Hey Dave- how''d you know my nickname?!


I''d say that sometimes reading a forum like this one can add doubt where none existed before.
Not that you are necessarily in that situation, but I have seen it happen.
There trend in the industry is to cut diamonds with a smaller table.
Personally, I believe this is due to marketing, as opposed to the actual look of the diamond.
The smaller tabled stones can be gorgeous, but then again, so can a stone with a 60% table.
Around here, there''s little debate, people prefer the smaller tabled diamonds.
In the "real world" and diamond business in general, it''s not as clear cut. Many diamond people still prefer a 60% table.


Did you overpay? I think the answer to that question involves how much you value the service your friend at the jewelry store is offering. No question you''d pay less for a comparable stone if you bought from an internet seller, but also no question you would not be dealing with someone you know, and apparently like to deal with
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 3/9/2009 4:04:53 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hey Dave- how'd you know my nickname?!



I'd say that sometimes reading a forum like this one can add doubt where none existed before.

Not that you are necessarily in that situation, but I have seen it happen.

There trend in the industry is to cut diamonds with a smaller table.

Personally, I believe this is due to marketing, as opposed to the actual look of the diamond.

The smaller tabled stones can be gorgeous, but then again, so can a stone with a 60% table.

Around here, there's little debate, people prefer the smaller tabled diamonds.

In the 'real world' and diamond business in general, it's not as clear cut. Many diamond people still prefer a 60% table.



Did you overpay? I think the answer to that question involves how much you value the service your friend at the jewelry store is offering. No question you'd pay less for a comparable stone if you bought from an internet seller, but also no question you would not be dealing with someone you know, and apparently like to deal with
Marketing just like the 60/60 before it eh?
There is no question that the modern near tolk has a different look.


The simple fact is that with those numbers it isn't a top 60/60 cut so it isn't even worth getting into the whole 60/60 vs near tolk debate yet again.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Karl, personally, I would like to see the stone before knocking it based solely on numbers.
Dave is actually looking at it- and actually picked it based on visual observation.

Yes, my conviction stands- calling near tolk "better" than 60/60 is a marketing tool......not to say it''s not totally pervasive, as finding 60/60''s seems near impossible today.....

If you read what Dave ( the OP) wrote, he loved the stone, but after looking at it outside the store, it did not look as good.
Such a scenario is also quite possible with a near tolk.
We also don;t know the quality, or type of setting it is.
Which could also impact the look and brilliance of the diamond.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 3/9/2009 5:21:13 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Karl, personally, I would like to see the stone before knocking it based solely on numbers.

Dave is actually looking at it- and actually picked it based on visual observation.
Exactly my point in B.S. lighting it looked good but not so good out in the real world.
With those numbers no matter what is in the averages it has no chance of being a top 60/60.
A well cut diamond will look great in any reasonable setting.

As far as comparing the best near tolk to the best 60/60 it would be a large dose of personal preference with some performance differences here and there but comparing a well cut near tolk to a so-so 60-60 is no contest.
 

Upgradable

Ideal_Rock
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Do I have to separate you two???

Don't make me come over there!!
 

Fly Girl

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
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Just want to add that I wear a 60/60 that scores 2.6 on the HCA (so reasonably close to a top cut), and I can see a difference in the sparkles between it and one that scores 4 or higher on the HCA. I think it comes from looking at my stone for 7 years so I know it pretty well in various lighting situations. I can also see that a true ideal cut has more sparkles than my 60/60.

When I first joined PS, I debated about swapping mine out, but it really is a beautiful diamond. In your case, since you haven''t given her the ring yet, I''d go ahead and get a top cut diamond. May as well make it a AGS0.
 

Ellen

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 3/9/2009 6:18:09 PM
Author: Fly Girl
Just want to add that I wear a 60/60 that scores 2.6 on the HCA (so reasonably close to a top cut), and I can see a difference in the sparkles between it and one that scores 4 or higher on the HCA. I think it comes from looking at my stone for 7 years so I know it pretty well in various lighting situations. I can also see that a true ideal cut has more sparkles than my 60/60.

When I first joined PS, I debated about swapping mine out, but it really is a beautiful diamond. In your case, since you haven''t given her the ring yet, I''d go ahead and get a top cut diamond. May as well make it a AGS0.
FG, thank you. Real life observations are hard to argue with.

Though some may still try.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 3/9/2009 6:28:58 PM
Author: Ellen
FG, thank you. Real life observations are hard to argue with.
Just curious -why would my real life observations not be valid?


Flygirl....The main thing is that you're happy with your diamond.
If one likes the look of near tolk better, that's absolutely the way to go.
But many people will prefer a 60/60 when given the choice.

Storm- if we tried the exact same scenario with the best near tolk ( looking in a store's lighting, compared to "regular" light,) there will be a difference.

I'm really not here to argue this point- but rather to discuss Daismi2's post.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 3/9/2009 6:35:50 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Date: 3/9/2009 6:28:58 PM

Author: Ellen

FG, thank you. Real life observations are hard to argue with.
Just curious -why would my real life observations not be valid?
Because you were trained to look for one thing and do not have an open mind.
 

Upgradable

Ideal_Rock
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Date: 3/9/2009 5:58:46 PM
Author: Upgradable
Do I have to separate you two???

Don''t make me come over there!!
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Storm, I like near tolk stones- my training continued for many years after Harry Winston- in fact it''s still ongoing. I worked one of the largest siteholders in the world for 4 years- almost 20 years after my time at Harry Winston. They were cutting gorgeous near tolk stones.

A point could easily be made that bashing 60/60''s with no basis is not exaclty open minded...not that you were doing that- but it does go on around here frequently- and in fact, I believe it is relavent to the OP- which is why I came into the conversation.
 

Ellen

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Date: 3/9/2009 6:41:28 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 3/9/2009 6:35:50 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 3/9/2009 6:28:58 PM

Author: Ellen

FG, thank you. Real life observations are hard to argue with.
Just curious -why would my real life observations not be valid?
Because you were trained to look for one thing and do not have an open mind.
And, because you haven''t lived with a near Tolk, to truly compare.
 
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