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Did I get a Fair Price on my engagement ring or should I return?

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bernynew

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
3
So I bought a diamond, engagement ring last weekend from a store that has been mentioned in the forums. I want to know if I got a fair deal or not. I''ve read many posts and originally, I was going by Fred Cuellar''s book. Then I read all the other forum posts of his past, his insistance on bonded diamonds. Also, I did more research on his depth % numbers and from two other sites, the diamond I got still remains excellent and good from a third site. Without babbling too much, here are my specs:

GIA Certificate:

* GIA-I
* shape: round brilliant
* measurements: 7.16 - 7.21 x 4.48 mm
* carat weight: 1.42
* color grade: G
* clarity grade: VS2
* cut grade: Excellent
* polish: Excellent
* symmetry: Excellent
* fluorescence: none
* medium (faceted) girdle
* depth: 62.4%
* table: 56%
* crown: 35''
* pavillion: 41''
* cutlet: None

but on the back of the certificate, there is a sticker of new measurements (i''m assuming the jeweler''s actual estimates):

* sticker corner says OGI
* total depth: 4.48mm 62.4%
* diameter: 7.15mm - 7.20mm 7.18 mm 0.7%
* table: 4.01 / 4.06mm 56.2%
* crown: 35.3'' 15.8%
* pavillion: 41.1'' 43.40%
* cutlet: 0.1% None
* girdle: 3.13% Thick 3.57% Thick

Total cost including tiffany setting is: $11,100

The biggest discrepancy is the girdle from medium to thick. So before I researched this forum, I called Mr. Fred''s gemtologist. I didn''t get the typical diamond is warped; however, I did get the fact that the diamond is cut too deep and only 38% light is being returned vs. 88% and 90% for class 2 and class 1 diamonds, respectively. Again, this info is based on the infamous how to buy a diamond book.

So then i researched the tolkowsky''s actual book and he basically measured 5 different diamonds that have different specs on them not necessarily matching those of fred cuellar''s book ranges or any of the other online ranges for depth, grade, etc.

So I want to know from other diamond experts here whether I got ripped off or a fair or great deal. I also want to know if the diamond will retain its value and appreciate or should I start looking for something with better specs. If so, what''s lacking in my current diamond?

Last, the diamond has 2-3 pinpoints and 2 feather inclusions (red).

I have a 10 day policy return so I would like to know sooner than later.

Thank you all for your help and all the information exchanged back and forth in the past message forums.
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
42,064
Hi berny!

Looking at your proportions, the diamond is hovering around what we call steep deep range, this means the diamond can possibly leak light looking at the detailed measurements and not be the best performer. The angles aren't the best combo here, so I would look for a diamond with a crown angle of 34 - 35 degrees and a pavilion angle between 40.6 and 41, but try to hit the middle ranges rather than the extreme edges of these measurements where possible to avoid the steeper and shallower zones. Looking at this diamond, do you feel there is something lacking?

Here are some numbers you can use as a guide to find a well cut round diamond,


depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above


note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!




And from expert John Pollard.

"As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.


With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.




GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35)."





 

kindred

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
945
Edited - Oops> I see you have already read that Fred Cueller's advice is not to be trusted. I am so glad I found Pricescope because I have learned so much here!
 

bernynew

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
3
Thanks Lorelei for your information! So when I was looking at another diamond at the same time, it was VV2, E, all Triple Excellent in the GIA report. Very simliar except for the clarity and color. Similar weight, 1.4.

The jeweler was selling it for $18,000. I did see a slight sparkling difference, but nothing MAGNIFICENT. I can tell the difference though between my diamond and the $18k one. It's not huge, but I'm assuming it's priced so much more because it's probably cut better; thereby allowing light to reflect back more.

So did I pay a reasonable price?
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
42,064
Date: 2/4/2009 4:46:28 PM
Author: bernynew
Thanks Lorie for your information! So when I was looking at another diamond at the same time, it was VV2, E, all Triple Excellent in the GIA report. Very simliar except for the clarity and color. Similar weight, 1.4.

The jeweler was selling it for $18,000. I did see a slight sparkling difference, but nothing MAGNIFICENT. I can tell the difference though between my diamond and the $18k one. It's not huge, but I'm assuming it's priced so much more because it's probably cut better; thereby allowing light to reflect back more.

So did I pay a reasonable price?
You are most welcome! The price looks reasonable from what I can tell, is the setting platinum or white gold? That can affect the price, if you like try the search tool above Pricescope your Diamond, type in your specs for similar and it will bring up other diamonds so you can compare the prices.

You are right that it is cut quality which makes all the difference. Steep deep angles can basically misdirect light in simple terms so that some of it is lost as it travels through the diamond and not returned to the eye as sparkle, this can also lead to dead patches which can be observed in some lighting conditions on top of the diamond. But basically you could have an SI clarity diamond with a superior cut compared to a flawless clarity which is badly cut for example - guess which one is going to be the sparkler and dazzle you? Yes, the SI with the great cut will be by far the most impressive looking rock! Also if you continue searching, bear in mind GIA Excellent cut grade is broad and can include some steep deep combos to get the Excellent cut grade, so evaluate each diamond on its own physical proportions, you can also use this tool to help you - the Holloway Cut Advisor will help you weed out the lesser performers. The aim is to score below 2 then evaluate from there preferably with Idealscope images etc. Also a lower score isn't better than a higher one, scores below 2 are considered a ' pass pending further evaluation.'

https://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp Cut advisor
 

bernynew

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
3
Thanks for the tool link. The results show:

Factor Grade
Light Return Very Good
Fire Good
Scintillation Good
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 3.7 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right

This is based on a medium girdle. So mine, based on the OGI report, is thick.

The setting is white gold.

Any change in your evaluation based on this information?

Please let me know.
 

swingirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 6, 2006
Messages
5,654
It is certainly up to you how much you want to spend and what color and clarity you want to have. If color or clarity is more important than cut, size or price you need to get what your budget can afford. If, however, you are considering returning this ring here is a stone to consider. 1.45ct H SI1 Even though the color and clarity have dropped it's a better cut stone with larger dimensions and it's within your budget.

This one 1.35ct F SI2 might be too low in clarity but is a very nice cut, higher in color and the dimensions are about the same size as your 1.46ct (due the fact that yours is deep).

Lots of variations to consider! It's a fair price if you are happy with what you bought.
 

Lorelei

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
42,064
Date: 2/4/2009 5:22:03 PM
Author: bernynew
Thanks for the tool link. The results show:

Factor Grade
Light Return Very Good
Fire Good
Scintillation Good
Spread
or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 3.7 - Very Good - Worth buying if the price is right

This is based on a medium girdle. So mine, based on the OGI report, is thick.

The setting is white gold.

Any change in your evaluation based on this information?

Please let me know.
No, no change - it is scoring that way on the HCA due to the angles. What I would suggest you do if you are unsure, if there is a Jareds near you or a Hearts on Fire dealer, go to view some AGS0 cut grade or HoF in person, that way you will be looking at diamonds of known cut quality and have a baseline comparison. Check the diamond you have out in as many different lights as you can to look for any dark dull patches, particularly around the table.
 

lyra

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
4,915
You have 10 days to return it? Have you looked at alternatives online with the same or similar specs (G VS2 1.4 ct)? Or is your budget the deciding factor? You could get a better cut and better performing stone definitely. I wouldn't settle for steep/deep. Also, can you get yourself an idealscope? Nifty little handheld tool to evaluate loose diamonds. Do a search here for it. I don't think you got a spectacular deal or anything.

Whiteflash G SI1 1.50ct H&A-- Here is an example of *great* and it is only about $2700 more than the stone you have. Just for comparison.
 
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