Diamond reflections...normal?

[tigerlady]

Hi everyone,

I was surprised yesterday with a beautiful engagement ring - with a center stone that has me quite perplexed. Please forgive me for analyzing the stone instead of enjoying the luxury of it. I think I have found a community of diamond lovers and hope you can help!

It's 1.25 ct, VVS2, H, cut grade very good. No visible inclusions, brilliant cut with .25ct stones on the sides. Six yellow gold prongs.

I've been wearing a black jacket all day and most of yesterday. From just above the center of the diamond (if you're looking at a clock, it's at 12 o'clock) out toward the prong, roughly the size of the prong, I see a black reflection. I can't distinguish which facet. I can make this reflection my skin color if I place a finger at the 6 o'clock prong. If I rotate my hand 90 degrees, the reflection stays at 12 o'clock - I can spin it all the way around and it goes from facet to facet. If I leave my finger at 6 o'clock, it is the color of my finger. If I tip the diamond downward, the reflection looks bigger. I find that if I hold a red shirt up, I see this reflection in red.

What am I seeing? Is this normal? It's like...all I can see when I look at the stone. It either goes away in sunlight or I'm blinded such that I can't see it. Am I totally being a brat?

Thank you SO much. I have been reading through the forums and am excited about the community here, but did not find a thread that discussed this type of reflection. I don't want to mention it to the brand new fiancee if it isn't anything abnormal. If it's cause for concern, I don't want him to get anything less than the best diamond he paid for. Your help is appreciated!!

-tigerlady

 

[yssie]

Welcome!

First - congratulations on your engagement!!!


Re. your question - diamonds do reflect what's around them, sometimes in unexpected ways, so in and of itself the fact that you're seeing unidentifiable moving reflections isn't anything to worry about That said, if you would like more thoughts, did the stone come with a report of any sort? If so, what authority issued it, and do you have a copy that you can post (or can you post the report number)? And do you have any photos of the stone that show the faceting pretty well?

ETA: You probably want to have this moved to the Rocky Talky sub-forum. Hit the "report concern" button and submit a request to have the moderators move it for you.

 

[tigerlady]

I love the setting and the details of the band - I appreciate the help in explaining this to me. I'm posting a crop of the GIA report, which I hope is helpful. He is on board with getting the stone swapped if we think it will make a difference. The setting is I guess similar to a basket with some filigree between the prongs, so I can barely see the side of the stone aside from what rises above filigree.

It is hard to capture the reflection I'm trying to describe without just getting a shot with a blob in the middle. Interestingly enough, using my DSLR actually exposes much more detail than I can see unaided. Maybe these pictures help.

 

[thecat]

Congrats on the engagement! It's great that he's on board with getting you a diamond with great performance. The table of your current stone is slightly large. It could also use a bit more depth. Does your jeweler allow you to upgrade your diamond?

 

[tigerlady]

I think we can swap it, yes. I thought it looked a little shallow. Any other details to keep in mind? Thanks!

 

[Andelain]

I think we can swap it, yes. I thought it looked a little shallow. Any other details to keep in mind? Thanks!

Pay attention to the cut grade when you look at replacements. Don't settle for less than excellent cut. Better still, get an AGS graded Ideal cut.

 

[thecat]

You can use the 2nd post of the following link for reference.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/preferred-specs-cheat-sheet-for-rounds.88548/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/preferred-specs-cheat-sheet-for-rounds.88548/[/URL]

 

[Dancing Fire]

I think we can swap it, yes. I thought it looked a little shallow. Any other details to keep in mind? Thanks!

Do it as soon as you can! ...this is a "pancake" stone!...

 

[Gypsy]

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough.
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. Over 2.5 is a no. No score under 2 is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. James Allen and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I think before you jump into switching the diamond, you need to consider the decisions your fiancé made in purchasing the diamond. He opted for a diamond that faces up larger while working in a price range I believe. Switching to an agso or GIA 3x or H&A will cost more for the same size, color and clarity.

I don't know your relationship but you also have to consider his feelings. He spent a considerable amount of money buying you a diamond and you are saying you want to switch it. I know people will say that you have to be honest but just consider his feelings - my hubby bought me the diamond I asked for and then I wanted something different. He tells me he doesn't care but in some ways he now feels zero part of the ering.

I don't know what you are seeing as I am not following your description but hopefully someone else can. It could be normal or some setting polish residue stuck on a prong or maybe it is leakage.

 

[tigerlady]

Thank you for the congratulations and help. We are both scientists by trade so this has become as much a research project (enjoyable) as it is about happiness. Fortunately, we both want to make sure we are getting the stone right!

What does the 80% indicate on the proportions chart? Will keep looking for that detail. Thanks!

Edit: This helps! http://www.jewelry-secrets.com/Diamond-Guide/How-to-Read-a-GIA-Diamond-Report/How-to-Read-a-GIA-Diamond-Report.html

 

[Gypsy]

Thank you for the congratulations and help. We are both scientists by trade so this has become as much a research project (enjoyable) as it is about happiness. Fortunately, we both want to make sure we are getting the stone right!

What does the 80% indicate on the proportions chart? Will keep looking for that detail. Thanks!

Edit: This helps! http://www.jewelry-secrets.com/Diamond-Guide/How-to-Read-a-GIA-Diamond-Report/How-to-Read-a-GIA-Diamond-Report.html

That article is good. But wrong about cut.

"These characteristics help GIA determine and estimate Cut down to a T, so you won't have to.

They made it easy for a normal consumer to look at a GIA Certificate and know if a Diamond is Cut well."


GIA cut is too broad.

You want a cheat sheet:

GIA cut grades:
Excellent: Category is over broad and some diamonds are better than others. Use the HCA to narrow and get an idealscope image.
Very Good: Not good enough.
Good: Bad
Fair: Terrible
Poor: Execrable

OK. Please read what I previously above for you.

Your diamond is quite frankly a poorly cut one. And you can do better.

 

[Dancing Fire]

64% table is a big no,no..

 

[CanuckAB]

Ok, let's start over. You and your FIANCÉ ( ) are in agreement about your ring. Do you want to keep that setting and only change the centre stone? Where did you buy the ring? Will the vendor allow you to choose a new stone or do you want a complete refund and start over? Once you start seeing new stones, come back with the GIA or AGS certs and any pictures, aset and idealscope pictures you can get. We'll give you more feedback.

If you are able to choose your new stone online, there are many people here that would love to suggest stones for you. We'd need to know, after cut, what are the things you value? Most people find G H plenty white enough. Vs2/SI1 ( eye clean) is usually fine. Around 1.2c? What is your budget?

You know, if the table on your original stone was 58% instead of 64% & all the other stats remained the same, that would probably have been an amazing diamond with a HCA score of 0.7. It really shows that ALL the factors have to work together well to produce the most beautiful diamonds.

Looking forward to seeing where you go from here.

 

[tigerlady]

It sounds like the stone itself is the source of the problem and not the setting, so we are most likely to keep the band and go shop for a stone. I think with all of the information we have now, we need to get a variety of stones in front of us and figure out what we like. I think the total budget is around $12k?

Thanks!

 

[MarionC]

Thank you for the congratulations and help. We are both scientists by trade so this has become as much a research project (enjoyable) as it is about happiness. Fortunately, we both want to make sure we are getting the stone right!

What does the 80% indicate on the proportions chart? Will keep looking for that detail. Thanks!

Edit: This helps! http://www.jewelry-secrets.com/Diamond-Guide/How-to-Read-a-GIA-Diamond-Report/How-to-Read-a-GIA-Diamond-Report.html

As a scientist myself, I can tell you that the research to find a great diamond is so much fun! I think you two will have a blast and the stone will mean that much more when you find it. Wonderful.

 

[thecat]

Can the head be changed out easily? Else you have to determine how many mm your stone should be and translate that into how many carat in ideal round. Happy shopping!

 

[tigerlady]

Hi! We did a bunch of shopping and have three stones we're looking for input about. Only one meets all of the numbers in the cheat sheet but all three are under the HCA 2 cutoff! Thanks for the help!

#1: GIA 15674898
#2: GIA 2136560026
#3: GIA 5166954077 (this is on Blue Nile)

I am hoping for advice about which is most likely to be the sparkliest. I know that isn't a word.

Thanks!

 

[MarionC]

I like the first one, would eliminate the 2nd one. But this is just by the numbers. Without seeing photos and/or reports there isn't enough information. Are these stones you can see in person? Can they be sent out for your approval? Only your eye will give you what YOU want.

 

[Lorelei]

Hi! We did a bunch of shopping and have three stones we're looking for input about. Only one meets all of the numbers in the cheat sheet but all three are under the HCA 2 cutoff! Thanks for the help!

#1: GIA 15674898
#2: GIA 2136560026
#3: GIA 5166954077 (this is on Blue Nile)

I am hoping for advice about which is most likely to be the sparkliest. I know that isn't a word.

Thanks!

Nothing wrong with the word sparkliest.

I will add the links to the grading reports for each so we can discuss each diamond fully.

1 - http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=15674898&=Go&c=Page&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&cid=1355954554547&encryptedString=6CF8C484B600C8893DD0BDFBD5EBD209

Number 1 is a definite contender, good proportions, colour and clarity, it's definitely worth further investigation and calling in images such as Idealscope or ASET if available.

2- http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pagename=GST%2FDispatcher&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=2136560026

Number 2 - is also worth consideration, this stone has a slightly different ' flavour' if you will, it falls within ' fiery ideal cut' range. These stones can show some extra fire or coloured light if the lighting conditions are conducive. They can sometimes face up a little small for the weight as they sometimes have increased depth and weight in other areas, but they can be fantastic diamonds if the overall cut precision is good. This stone could be worth getting an image for to evaluate further. One thing I would add, albeit rare, the clarity grade of SI1 is based on a cloud inclusion, I would ask a trusted expert to check there isn't any adverse effect such as loss of brilliance, but as previously mentioned, this is unusual in SI1. Also check it is eye clean to your personal standards, if you don't want to see any visible inclusions from any angle or distance, in any lighting, make sure the vendor knows that, be specific so they can best advise you.



3- http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pagename=GST%2FDispatcher&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=5166954077

Number 3- this diamond also has excellent proportions and is well worth further evaluation.

You have 3 potentially excellent choices there, well done!

 

[tigerlady]

They are all around the same price. Additionally, there is a 1.5CT EGLUSA that came out to a 2.5 on the HCA. It is H&A triple x, though it is a different lab. VS1, H.

Am I going to be able to distinguish a 1.9 from a 2.5? I would be trading .2CT for the HCA score (and potential peace of mind.) We saw it but without a baseline it is hard not to think they're all beautiful. Does the average consumer really nail the cheat sheet specs?

Thanks, everyone!

PS We picked out our bands and the mounting so that is a relief. It is a simple solitaire-with such a great stone I don't want anything around it.

 

[Lorelei]

They are all around the same price. Additionally, there is a 1.5CT EGLUSA that came out to a 2.5 on the HCA. It is H&A triple x, though it is a different lab. VS1, H.

Am I going to be able to distinguish a 1.9 from a 2.5? I would be trading .2CT for the HCA score (and potential peace of mind.) We saw it but without a baseline it is hard not to think they're all beautiful. Does the average consumer really nail the cheat sheet specs?

Thanks, everyone!

PS We picked out our bands and the mounting so that is a relief. It is a simple solitaire-with such a great stone I don't want anything around it.

To the best of my knowledge, EGL USA are said to be the strongest of the various EGL labs for grading but GIA or AGS are considered to be the most accurate by many in the trade, so unless you particularly like an EGL diamond and you are prepared to have it appraised prior to the deal being final, I would concentrate on GIA/AGS/HRD ( if applicable) graded stones.

Can you distinguish between HCA scores? Maybe, maybe not. Bear in mind the HCA is a rejection, not selection tool. It cannot see the diamonds nor account for different performance nuances of each and personal taste of the buyer. You might prefer a diamond that scores between 2 and 3, nothing wrong with that if you do. The HCA has done its job by weeding through the stones, now it comes down to budget, colour, clarity and carat preferences, close inspection and personal taste.

From the info we have, I would suggest concentrating on the three you posted earlier unless you really like the EGL stone, but bear in mind the EGL H VS1 might appraise a bit lower, such as I or J colour and VS2 or SI clarity grade and if the stone was submitted to GIA or AGS, it might grade lower than H VS1 as stated too. I would make any sale of this EGL diamond contingent on it appraising as stated on the report by an independent appraiser of your choice.

Does the average consumer nail the cheat sheet specs? Sometimes, but if you are referring to the cheat sheet I wrote many years ago based on what I have learnt from John Pollard and other experts, plus a quotation from him, it is intended as guidance, not an absolute. As John's quotation at the bottom states, '' a little give here can work with a little take there,'' there are all kinds of proportion configurations that can work well together, the cheat sheet is used to try to get within the cross hairs but also notes that you might find a sweet spot outside them too. The HCA can really be helpful there when screening stones that fall outside of the ranges as it will tell you which proportion combos might be worth a further look.

I hope this helps.

 

[tigerlady]

We have two more to consider. I don't think I have an opportunity to see them all together. Most likely we will choose one of these. Please assume they are all around $11-12k.

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?rep...ename=GIA/Dispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

Or 1.5ct EGLUSA VS1 H. H&A. Ex, Ex, Ex. Table 56 Depth it has 43.1 below girdle 1.09-2.86 girdle and 15.8 above...? Is that total 60-61.9? CA 35.5 Pavilion 40.8

Thanks!

 

[Lorelei]

We have two more to consider. I don't think I have an opportunity to see them all together. Most likely we will choose one of these. Please assume they are all around $11-12k.

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?rep...ename=GIA/Dispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547


The one in the link above is my preference, it has a good colour and clarity combination, the numbers look good too. I would also personally prefer to stick with GIA or AGS graded diamonds for the reasons mentioned previously. If you view these diamonds and do prefer the one from EGL USA, make any sale contingent on this diamond getting a favourable report from an independent appraiser. But I also prefer the numbers of the GIA stone, that's the front runner in my opinion.