Diamond price low, setting High???

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 10/15/2003 3:09:57 PM aljdewey wrote:

----------------
On 10/15/2003 2:51:14 PM fire&ice wrote:





That said, we don't have enough information.

----------------
Agreed........again. The horse is completely bloodied and most assuredly dead on that.

----------------

But what if I am procrasinating & want to drive the point home on more time to pass the time.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 10/15/2003 3:13:58 PM fire&ice wrote:




But what if I am procrasinating & want to drive the point home on more time to pass the time.

----------------

LMAO.......I'm laughing so hard I'm gasping for air. Sincere thanks for the best laugh I have had all day!

(I just don't want you to feel neglected....like no one is hearing you. I hear you.

)

 

[spicolicpa]

"I'm sorry, but these are HUGE assumptive leaps on your part. There are 3 sides to every story......that of party A, that of party B, and that which really happened."

OK given, I elect to give her the benefit of the doubt...thats my perogative.

You don't know what his behavior is for sure, and one person's perception or account doesn't necessarily make it so. Further, you're drawing conclusions about behavior that are unsupported even by this poster!

Listen, you have elected to give him the benefit of the doubt, I have taken the side of the consumer. This is where we differ

Saying "I will not amend my price" is not bullying....it's stating fact. He hasn't, to my knowledge, said 1) you HAVE to buy this now that I've created it, or 2) if you don't buy it within "x" time frame, I'll yank the offer off the table. THOSE would be instances of bullying.


Ummmm the last time I checked "what did you think it would cost!?" and "before I cut anything off the price I will scrap the ring" Sounds pretty much like Bully to me.


She's "afraid" to talk to him, you say. Did it occur to you that she's timid because she recognizes her part in failing to be more specific? Perhaps she said "make a platimum ring with .50 baguettes", and then was stunned when the price was more than she expected?

Again I gave her the benefit of the doubt, BECAUSE she is the customer and this forum is designed to help and educate customers, not advocate retailers rights. If she did all the things you assume she Could have done, it is still the sellers fault for entering into a business transaction without finalizing all aspects of the sale.

Part of being an accomplished, professional seller is to eliminate all these questions prior to "Building the ring" for his protection

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 10/15/2003 3:18:58 PM spicolicpa wrote:

OK given, I elect to give her the benefit of the doubt...thats my perogative.

Yes, it is your perogative, even if it's incorrect and uninformed and presumptive.

Ummmm the last time I checked 'what did you think it would cost!?' and 'before I cut anything off the price I will scrap the ring' Sounds pretty much like Bully to me.

It sounds like bully to you because you are ready to lynch with very little factual information in the first place. Saying "I will scrap the ring before dropping the price" isn't a THREAT to her....it's saying that he would take less of a loss to scrap it then to drop the price. That would be no different than saying "I cannot sell you the car for $300...I'd scrap it first (perhaps because scrap value would be $450). It's a cost issue, not necessary the "principle" you seem to want to make it. As for the cost comment, I've already agreed it was handled poorly, but that's still not bullying.

Again I gave her the benefit of the doubt, BECAUSE she is the customer and this forum is designed to help and educate customers, not advocate retailers rights.

Right, it's supposed to educate customers....but that doesn't mean blindly agree with everything they say and take it as absolute gospel. Would YOU make a purchase without knowing how much something was going to cost? Neither would I......so doesn't it seem just a big ODD to you that this person agreed to the stone price AND agreed to purchase the ring without knowing how much the ring was?

This site is about customer education....and that means it's not about retailers rights OR customer's "rights", and I say that from the perspective of a customer. Neither is it about bashing retailers without factual cause.

Giving a customer the benefit of the doubt does not automatically make the vendor wrong/shady/whatever , and it's a long leap from giving the benefit of the doubt to pratically calling for the vendor's head on a stick!

If she did all the things you assume she Could have done, it is still the sellers fault for entering into a business transaction without finalizing all aspects of the sale.

No.....as it stands now, it's BOTH of their faults....his for not giving an estimate so she'd be more likely to be satisfied upon completion, and hers for agreeing to pay for a ring without knowing what it costs. Does "caveat emptor" ring a bell with you at all?

Part of being an accomplished, professional seller is to eliminate all these questions prior to "Building the ring" for his protection

Yup....and part of being a smart, satisfied consumer is knowing what he's buying and at what price *before* he buys it for *his* protection. It would appear *both* failed spectacularly at their respective roles.

----------------

 

[spicolicpa]

Nice choice of color-hehe

It would appear *both* failed spectacularly at their respective roles.

Thanks for agreeing with me

I get soo sick of people saying-
Let the buyer beware, if they did not do their homework they get what they deserve.

By saying this you are justifying every unethical and crooked sale that ever occured on the web and in B&M. If this is your platform sorry to challange you.

The used car industry, mechanics, medicine all was spectaculary corrupt before these industries got a massive overhaul.

Take your latin and continue to throw lines like "Buyer beware", its your option.

 

[fire&ice]

Did I mention that we don't have enough information to know whether the setting is overpriced?

 

[spicolicpa]

Your right Fire and Ice, we do not know.

But my point is it had better be ONE hell of a good deal for a customer to be treated like this and still go with the Seller

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 10/15/2003 3:54:10 PM spicolicpa wrote:

Thanks for agreeing with me

----------------

I didn't agree.....I dont' agree that it was the seller's fault. I maintain that both parties were equally at fault, based on the information we've been provided.

I do think that customers and vendors both bear responsibility in any transaction. Vendors are responsible for making sure they get a fair price on their wares, and customers are responsible for making sure they get a fair price on their purchases. Neither side can do that well when operating uninformed.

I do think it's up to customers to inform themselves prior to purchase. I don't think it's right to expect vendors to bear the consequences of the customer's ignorance, stupidity, or lack of being informed.

Similarly, I don't think the customer should bear the brunt of the vendor's ignorance in assuming a customer knows what things run or is as intimately familiar with the subject matter as they are.

Both were at fault, and subsequently, nobody wins. That's not a successful transaction.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 10/15/2003 3:58:48 PM fire&ice wrote:





Did I mention that we don't have enough information to know whether the setting is overpriced?
----------------

Uh......hmmm.......no......no, I don't recall hearing that previously at all.

Thanks for bringing that to light.

(I'm having way too much fun with this.....I don't have enough to do, can you tell?)

 

[spicolicpa]

I do think that customers and vendors both bear responsibility--"in red" haha

Again we are in accord!

Yes customers must come to the bargaining table with honest intentions in thought and deed.

Everything else is on the Seller. Sellers jobs are to deal w/ whoever shows up on their front door. Assuming they are not intentially defrauding seller.

 

[fire&ice]

Has SS1934 gone away? I'm still waiting for more information on the specifications of the setting.

I wanted to remind everyone that we do not have enough information.

I had to do my assigned beating of the dead horse before signing off.

Also, the retailer is always right.

 

[spicolicpa]

FIre and Ice--did you just come out of the closet? []

 

[fire&ice]

It's no secret here, I'm a retailer. Nope, not in diamonds - for that I am a consumer.

But, as a retailer in a closely related field, I can offer a perpective from both sides. And make trouble by countering the pro-buyer is always right sentiment.

When, in fact, for every consumer horror story about a vendor, there is an equally appalling vendor story about a consumer.

The truth lies some where in the middle and usually involves misunderstanding & miscommunication. But, *always* involves two personalities that are a bad fit to begin with.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 10/15/2003 4:38:33 PM spicolicpa wrote:










Again we are in accord!

Yes customers must come to the bargaining table with honest intentions in thought and deed.

Everything else is on the Seller

----------------

Not quite in accord just yet. Customer's responsibility is a little more complex than you suggest, in my estimation.

Customer must come to the bargaining table with honest intentions in thought and deed, yes. Everything else is on the seller? NO.

Customer must come with a clear understanding of what they want. That means he has to educate himself and/or come with a set of questions to help them learn what he doesn't know in order to decide and subsequently communicate what he wants. Customer has a responsibility to understand the terms of sale, including price, warranty, etc prior to purchase. Customer must resolve NOT to buy until he's done his homework. OR alternately, customer does not do homework, makes purchase, but has the grace not to b*tch when he later learns how ill-prepared he was.

Seller must come to tables ALSO with honest intentions. Seller must accurately represent merchandise and must be clear about terms of sale including price, warranty, etc prior to purchase. They must be willing to respond to customer questions to assist in purchasing decision. They must not dupe, deceive, or otherwise intentionally fleece customer. They must not coerce customers nor instill fear during the purchase process.

That covers most everything. I just want us to be clear; we do seem to both agree that both parties in a sale bear responsibility, but my scope of customer responsibility is a bit broader than yours.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 10/15/2003 5:55:39 PM fire&ice wrote:





I had to do my assigned beating of the dead horse before signing off.

Also, the retailer is always right.

----------------

Hey, don't worry.....while you're gone, I'll fill in on the beating detail.

 

[spicolicpa]

See I knew you were a Seller

You should see me ladies....I am doing the touch down dance and shakin' my booty like a polaroid picture!!!!!!

Its okay, even accountants protect their own....

 

[aljdewey]

Spicol: I know it would make your little black-and-white world much easier if I were a seller, but I'm not.




Go ahead.....call every single vendor on here and ask them if I work for them. I DARE you.




I know F&I strictly from this board. Only because we've both been participants for months. Never met her....I don't even know her real *name*.




My comment to her was a joke.....a joke because she beat the crap out of an earlier point of hers, and I teased her about beating a dead horse.




God......stop being such a simpleton with the conspiracy theories, will ya? Everyone who doesn't agree with *you* is a seller, then? Gee, that's a whole lotta sellers, isn't it?




Do me a favor.

 

[spicolicpa]

Sorry I am still shakin' it like a bottle of Spicy Mustard over here

Look dont be mad, I know you both are reasonable people and will come around to my point of view eventually!

Just kiddin'

 

[canadiangrrl]

Al and F&I, that was the best laugh I've had in days.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 10/15/2003 7:08:45 PM canadiangrrl wrote:





Al and F&I, that was the best laugh I've had in days.

----------------

That's great to hear. Yep, believe me....we're the best cure for a root canal. How ya doin, kiddo?

If you're enjoyed our little repartee, entertainment donations are always welcome. Send them to www.downwithuninformedbuyers.com

 

[aljdewey]

F&I:




If I were the conspiracy-obsessed type myself, I'd almost suspect that spicol is .......jlim!!!!! BAH! Wouldn't you?




LMAO!

 

[spicolicpa]

Hold on now....lets be fair

45% of that donation should go to:

www.fight-corrupt-and-pushy-sellers.com

and 5% to:
www.dance-lessons-for-spic.com

 

[canadiangrrl]

Al, I'm 100% better, thanks for asking. I'm currently at T-15 days and counting on my engagement ring, distance being one the perils of a long-distance relationship & anticipation being one of the joys.

And Spicoli, my portion of the donation is being designated towards having that poor kid's Camaro fixed. I don't care if your Dad is a TV repairman, it's going to need major body work.

 

[spicolicpa]

LOL-
Yes someone has seen the movie!

 

[fire&ice]

Yes, Jlim - the bain of our existence. Funny thing, the guy really came around - I *do * wonder what he is up to. Pigheaded as the day is long - but - he may have found a soul mate like me who thinks it is too funny about the pigheadedness.

No spico - you aren't even on the right track.

As an aside to Ben, Spygirl is better at this.

 

[ss1934]

Well Im glad no bias is given to the buyer or the seller on this board.

I noticed you guys cant agree on anything besides for spic needing dancing lessons, or that there isnt enough information.

so Ill try to fill in the missing pieces.

1. This dealer showed me this stone with a pre-cert of the aformentioned specs
PS G VVS2 2.5 Ct 11.2 x 7.45 x 4.?? this is all the info on the pre cert, we looked for Flourencence under a flour light - not a hint. A real beauty. I thught it could have a bit more brilliance but hey the price was right-16700,

2. I said Ill think about it . Did some homework and even with just that info It seemed like a good price

3. made another appointment to see the rock again, at that point I agreed to purchase the stone.... Next the setting

4. I asked the guy to give me a price on the setting, he said that he cant,
he has to weigh the Plat and find baugettes to match I said listen Im not asking for dollars and cents Just a ballpark...... Hell call me back

5. he calls me back.....Ring is ready! the rest is history

look I can understand the guy wants to make some money , hey the world has to turn one way or another, but this kind of trick must have come back to bite him in the ass before I came around . I guess hes doing some averaging, and most people dont complain, so if he has to scrap a few pieces here and there so be it.

Look I dont feeel obligated to buy the ring in any way. I explained to him that he should have told me the price, He Doesnt seem to care one way or another if I get it or not (which irritates me even further). I just feel that he doesnt deserve my business, If someone even mentioned they were ready to drop that kind of cash at my place of work, you can be sure there will be a whole lotta AsSKissing taking place.

I would have preferred if he upped the price of the rock and lowered the setting to its true and fair value FROM the begining, and we wouldnt even be talking abot this right now. But he did and right now its a matter of do I discpline him and maybe just maybe hell change his evil ways. or do I just fall into his trap like so many other unsuspecting prey on the assumption that it is a good deal and I can feel like shit about myself. Either way I get the ring from this jackass or from someother guy ( for possibly a little more $)

But at the end of the day My wife will be walking proud with a 2.5 attached too her finger. Thats right My wife.

 

[Mikesgirl]

Plain and simple - buy the ring if you have the right of return for 10 days or so and take it to an independent appraiser. G VVS2, 2.5 carats for 16,700 is a TERRIFIC price. Seems too good to be true. If it is true, go for it - why cut off your nose to spite your face? So the guy's an idiot - maybe he has to offer fantanstic deals to overcome that. If he won't give you the time to have it appraised, run, run, run. It may well be too good to be true.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 10/15/2003 9:02:21 PM ss1934 wrote:

I just feel that he doesnt deserve my business

Then don't buy from him. End of story.

I would have preferred if he upped the price of the rock and lowered the setting to its true and fair value FROM the begining, and we wouldnt even be talking abot this right now.

SS, you still haven't even determined what the "true and fair value" of the setting really is! So how can you say that? What are the specs of the baguettes? How many points are they? How many grams of platinum is it? How much is platimum per gram? What is the per-hour labor rate for the benchman? Do you see where I'm going.....you have NO idea what this setting is worth because you don't know enough about it. All you have is a "suspicion" that the setting is overpriced....a suspicion unsupported by any data to date.

And.....are you serious? The price of the ring is $19,400 right now....$16,700 for the stone and $2700 for the setting. Are you really saying that you'd feel better if he raised the price on the stone to $17,700 and dropped the setting to $1700? *What* difference does that make.....it's still freakin' $19,400 total!!!! This isn't about getting a fair price, it's standing on ceremony. $19,400 is $19,400.....whether it's all in pennies or in one big fat check.

Do you like the setting? Is it what you wanted? Is the total price of $19,400 acceptable to you (regardless of the split)? If it is, then buy it. If it isn't, then walk and keep looking.

But he did and right now its a matter of do I discpline him and maybe just maybe hell change his evil ways. or do I just fall into his trap like so many other unsuspecting prey on the assumption that it is a good deal and I can feel like shit about myself.

If you're going to feel like sh*t making this purchase, then don't do it. If you feel this guy's business practices are unacceptable, then speak with your dollars and walk them elsewhere. BUT....if you're only sticking point is that you *think* (but don't know) that the setting is overpriced, you should do more homework and find out what the setting is really worth before you decide it's overpriced.

Again, I'd say buy it with a solid money-back guarantee, get it appraised, and if it's a good deal, keep it. If not, return for refund. It's that simple.

 

[fire&ice]

I'm done with this one.

The guy comes here asking for advice. We, albeit a chance to beat that horse on more time, tell him he doesn't have or has not told us specifics needed to even tell him whether the setting in competitively priced. Then he decides just to berate the responses. BTW, some here find debate invigorating. It presents various opinions on topics.

And, bottom line we *still* don't have enough information to form an opinion on the original quesiton.

Did you just want someone to agree with you that the setting is overpriced & then say I feel your pain man?

Then, I feel your pain & my sage advice (given all the facts) is that you either buy it or you don't.

 

[DancinGirl]

"I used the reference in my frame of reference. I know how much I paid for my Vatche setting. I know how much the retail price is for the Vatche setting. I know how much my estimate was to create a ring w/ similar Vatche parameters."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Vatche is WAY overpriced!! They have hiked their settings so high within the last year - and their designs really aren't all that extraordinary in comparison to regular settings.

I can see someone paying higher prices for someone like Verragio with their "Luminoset" design or anyone who makes those detailed Antique settings - but if it is a plain setting with baguettes, just because it has a Vatche stamp on it, doesn't make it any better!

I have seen the Vatche settings in person and they didn't impress me all that much. (no offense to anyone who has one) - but I just couldn't see WHY such the price hike! Wasn't worth it to me. I have seen generic brand ones just as nice!!

If the setting is plain with baguettes, and it isn't a designer setting - well - it's too much IN MY OPINION! (and probably other people's as well)