Diamond price low, setting High???

[ss1934]

Hi Everyone,

I am ready to purchase a diamond ring. The jeweller refused to tell me the price of the total ring before it was made. We agreed on the stone price of $16700
for a 2.50 Pear, Good cut , G color, VVS2. I asked for a Plat setting with 2 tapered baguetes (.25 Ct x 2). Now he called me to tell me the ring is ready and the setting is going to cost $2700. I think this price is high. Is this common practice for jewelers, is it ethical, or am I just Paranoid? Could anyone give me their advice, please.

 

[Mikesgirl]

Hard to say - is it a fancy style? Etched? Carved? If its a simple band with side baguettes, it's at least double what you'd find on the net, but that may not be out of line for a Brick and Mortar. But the stone - from a brick and mortar? What's the cert - EGL? Gotta wonder how that price could be on a stone that size of that quality, particularly at a B & M. I mean, internet price for a 2.5 carat pear of lesser quality starts about $17,900. Something's fishy here - have it appraised independently. I suspect it is not what it purports to be.

 

[ss1934]

It did sound like a good price, He claimed to have got it on a trade-in, its got a lopcal certification. As far as the setting its a very plain setting with baguettes.

SS1934

 

[fire&ice]

Is the setting designer? What are the color of the side baguettes? How much platinum does it have?

If the side bag are g/vs quality & the amount of plat. is not whimpy then price is a tad high but not unrealistic for this setting.

That said, what recourse do you have if you feel the setting is too high?

I can not comment on the pear stone as I do not have any frame of reference.

 

[magna2]

ss1934,

The ring is a bit high for .5 total ct weight baguettes even if it is at the g/vs quality (the quality of the side stones is something that you probably do not know since you did not provide). The ring sounds very plain and generic and not worth $2700. What bothers me even more is that you mentioned that it is a trade-in. You need to have the jeweler clarify what exactly does that mean. This may be your only out if you did not commit to buying a used setting.

Was it a ring that a previous diamond removed and yours then mounted into the head or was the head replaced? If it is the former, you might find that over time your diamond will become loose.

If you have already contractually committed in buying the ring, there is not a whole lot you could do at this point. It would have been better if you had gotten a firm price on the ring before you bought and had your diamond set. Is what the jeweler did ethical? IMO - NO! But then again when you agreed to it, you basically gave the jeweler a blank check.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/14/2003 9:48:16 AM magna2 wrote:

ss1934,

The ring sounds very plain and generic and not worth $2700. What bothers me even more is that you mentioned that it is a trade-in. /blockquote>


Magna, diamond was a trade-in - not the setting.

The Vatche 3 stone w/ .50 ctw. diamonds on the side is about 3200.00 - you need to adjust up in price from that for the larger head this size pear needs to accomodate.

 

[Hest88]

Obviously the guy is not ethical. Personally, I would never have agreed to purchase a ring without a firm price. Even with a custom ring he could have given you a firm price but in this case he could have easily priced it by looking at his wholesale cost.

However, if you have a sales contract with him I don't know what you can do.

 

[ss1934]

I dont know what you mean by a sale contract. I agreed to buy the ring, I also asked for a price on the ring, It was his decision to stall on the price and rush with the ring. I really dont know what I am going to do.

 

[Giangi]

I don't think he's acting correctly. You should have agreed on a price, be it high or low.
$2700.- for the setting is not a bargain price...

But if he's using top top quality melee, F-G IF-VVS quality and the setting is hand made to your specifications and fits your diamond PERFECTLY and is (very) heavy, then it's not that bad, considering that we're talking about a B&M shop. But, again, it must truly be a work of art.

BTW, what about the pear? G/VVS 2 good cut... Can you tell us some specs?

Its price is *very* low!

 

[ss1934]

Just an update,

I spoke with the dealer/jeweler, I told him that I thought the price was high, He gave me the old 'what did you expect it would cost' garbage and that he is not dropping a penny. I think he gave me a great price on the rock to get me interested and then stiffed me on the setting. well its up to me, he says hell scrap the ring before dropping the price so I have to make a decision soon,
as far as specs on the rock go I dont think I have the courage to call him again unless Im buying.

 

[spicolicpa]

I would drop that ring like a hot rock....Screw this guy.

In shopping I ran into multiple people who have no reservations about taking advantage of customers just like yourself.


I actually had one guy tell me Depth % has no effect on the beauty of the stone!

CPA Law 101:
You are under no obligation due to the fact that you "entered" into a fictious contract, one w/o set price and reasonable expectations.

Loose this dude and take your money elsewhere.

On a side note: 2.5 ct diamond...GULP! Take that cash to someone who appreciates it...

Did he really tell you
"I will scrap this fantastic piece of art before I compromise my integrity and sell it at a penny below its TRUE value"

Man please, this guy is a creep

 

[detta]

If it looks like a fish and smells like a fish........ Sounds like a bad deal. I priced platinum baguette settings and they were about $1700, which I even thought was high for .5 total. Unless you are in LOVE with the stone, I'd keep looking.

 

[fire&ice]

Wait a minute guys! I can not comment on the price of the center stone; but, others have said it's a great deal.

My advice, do some homework. And indeed if the center stone is priced right...do some income averaging.

Also, Giangi is right - it's not a bargin - but not out of the ballpark either -especially, if the total package is in line.

 

[lovesparkles]

This jeweler's attitude alone would make me run away. I don't care if it's a great deal or not - if I'm dropping the $$$ (esp on a 2.5er), don't screw around with me!

If you buy from him, you're condoning his behavior.

 

[spicolicpa]

She wrote: "I dont think I have the courage to call him again unless Im buying."

Fire and Ice: Are you crapping me? Is this the kind of additude you want jewelers to emulate. The woman is "afraid" to call this jackass.

She wrote: "The jeweller refused to tell me the price of the total ring before it was made. We agreed on the stone price of $16,700"

This is beyond my comprehension, she is going to spend 20k at some store that she is Afraid to call and get the fine details....If I am dropping 20k the only refusing that should be done by him is if the selling price includes certain body parts(*cough*) of his....like the family jewels!!!

Please address this?

 

[Kay]

As mentioned above, you have no contractual obligation to buy the ring. A "contract" is unenforceable when an essential term (and price is usually the most essential term) to the contract was not agreed upon by both parties.

Is there any possibility that you can buy just the diamond from him at the previously agreed price of $16,700 and have the stone set elsewhere? $16,700 may or may not be a good deal, as the stone is not certified by GIA or another well-known, reputable lab.

I would not buy the completed ring from him because his refusal to tell you the price of the setting before ordering or making it was sleazy -- unless you love the diamond so much that it is worth it to you.

What is his return policy? Do not buy any diamond or ring you cannot return (for any reason, including changing your mind or finding something better) within a reasonable period of time (at least 10 days), and take it to an independent appraiser right away to make sure the color, clarity, cut, etc. are as advertised and that you paid a fair price.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/14/2003 8:38:19 PM spicolicpa wrote:


She wrote: 'The jeweller refused to tell me the price of the total ring before it was made. We agreed on the stone price of $16,700'

Please address this?----------------

We only know one side of the story. I'm sorry, but how could the jeweler "refuse" to tell her the price? If indeed this is the case, why would she proceed? I know when my setting was being priced out - it was an "estimate" & in no way a final price. Plat prices & diamond prices flucuate. It sounds like this is a custom job. I'm sorry guys - $2700.00 is *not* out of line. Without seeing the ring *none* of us can determine whether the price is in line.

I priced out several settings of this type. Some were very weeny w/ poor quality stones & some were substantial w/ great side stones. The price can flucuate by quite a bit. Add the fact that it's a custom job - just for her - and price goes up.

EVERYONE keeps saying the stone is a bargin. I don't know if it is - but EVERYONE keeps saying so. Arguing about a couple of hundred bucks when she is saving thousands on the stone - a similar one is listed on PS for over 20k - is just plain stupid.

If I was the jeweler & knew I was giving the client a *very good* price on the diamond, I would be pretty disgusted with the nickle & diming for the cost of the setting - especially if I thought it was a work of art.

We on this board should dispense advice; but, we can not determine the price of a setting none of us has seen. Do any of you know the specs of the side stones or the penny weight of the platinum? Are any of you benchmen who know how long this particular setting - that again NONE of us has seen - takes to create.

 

[DancinGirl]

I don't care if the stone is a "bargain" - it's probably ONLY such a bargain cause the setting you want has been marked up extraordinarily to make up for it.

But the fact that he changed his originally statement, it's just way too fishy! If you are going to spend THAT MUCH MONEY on this, go to someone who is up front and clear about their prices and guarantees - then get it in writing before shelling out the dough. Sounds like someone is trying to bilk this deal for all it's worth if they keep changing their original statement.

RUN somewhere else... and don't be in a rush - cause they will see that and bilk you even more. If they know you are willing to walk away - go ahead. This guy can't sit there and say that stone will be sold in the next week or anything - unless he is in a habit of catering to millionaires on a regular basis or something. Run away - he isn't worth the hassle.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/15/2003 12:49:18 PM DancinGirl wrote:

I don't care if the stone is a 'bargain' - it's probably ONLY such a bargain cause the setting you want has been marked up extraordinarily to make up for it.

----------------

My point is how do you know it's *extraordinarily* marked up? Say it's marked up by $700.00. A similar stone on PS is over 20K. She is saving 4k to spend $700.00.

The math doesn't add up. And yes, I will deal w/ difficult people to save *alot* of money.

 

[spicolicpa]

Fire and Ice wrote: "If I was the jeweler & knew I was giving the client a *very good* price on the diamond, I would be pretty disgusted with the nickle & diming for the cost of the setting - especially if I thought it was a work of art."

This is in essence where I differ completly with Fire and Ice.

I am a small business owner. I do not sell jewelry or diamonds but ethically I feel:
1) A informed consumer will try his damndest to get the best price possible. This is not disgusting nor is it a personality flaw.
2) $100 (heck $50) is not chicken feed to me nor should it be to anyone who works as hard as I do for my money. The customer can "nickle and dime" all they want, we are not talking about buying tupperware here she is spending 20k!!!
3) Its a competitive marketplace and to be awarded (Yes its a privilage for a customer to select you over all the other vendors out there who offer similiar products) a sale is the culmination of your ability to PLEASE the customer.
4) Unless your a fool you price everything you sell in such a way that you make money. A very good deal might have been offered but that was the sellers choice, the buyer is unable to make the seller loose money.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/15/2003 1:06:16 PM spicolicpa wrote:

Fire and Ice wrote: 'If I was the jeweler & knew I was giving the client a *very good* price on the diamond, I would be pretty disgusted with the nickle & diming for the cost of the setting - especially if I thought it was a work of art.'

This is in essence where I differ completly with Fire and Ice.

I am a small business owner. I do not sell jewelry or diamonds but ethically I feel:
1) A informed consumer will try his damndest to get the best price possible. This is not disgusting nor is it a personality flaw.
2) $100 (heck $50) is not chicken feed to me nor should it be to anyone who works as hard as I do for my money. The customer can 'nickle and dime' all they want, we are not talking about buying tupperware here she is spending 20k!!!
3) Its a competitive marketplace and to be awarded (Yes its a privilage for a customer to select you over all the other vendors out there who offer similiar products) a sale is the culmination of your ability to PLEASE the customer.
4) Unless your a fool you price everything you sell in such a way that you make money. A very good deal might have been offered but that was the sellers choice, the buyer is unable to make the seller loose money.


----------------

I, too, am a small business owner in the retail field.

First, again *NONE* of us knows that the setting is over-priced. Second, I'm a big picture looker. How much is she saving on the completed package? I'm sure there are a few dealers out there that will sell the diamond at minimal to no market to make money on the completed project.

to counter point -

1. Educated consumers know a *fair* price should exist. It should be a win-win for both. Price is & has never been the ultimate determining factor. Value is the ultimate determining factor.
2. Then is the savings of $3,300 off the retail price of the diamond chicken feed? Do the math

3. No, one must make money in order support a livelihood. I'm not in the business to soley please the client. Believe me, I have fired clients before. Some are just bad fits. Customer service is very important; but, my resources as far a time is limited.
4. I have no doubt the dealer is making money on the stone & the setting. I see nothing wrong with either.

And none of mine or yours 4 points really address the issue at hand.

Bottom line is that she can either accept - WHAT IS *PRECIEVED* ON THIS BOARD as a premium for the setting or walk away from the deal on the diamond.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/15/2003 12:40:36 PM fire&ice wrote:

If I was the jeweler & knew I was giving the client a *very good* price on the diamond, I would be pretty disgusted with the nickle & diming for the cost of the setting - especially if I thought it was a work of art.
----------------

I'm sorry, but it's not reasonable to me that a knowledgeable jeweler wouldn't be able to provide at least an *estimate* on what the custom setting should cost.

If a jeweler asked me "what did you expect it would cost" in that situation, I'd retort....."I couldn't expect ANYTHING, because you *refused* to give me any parameters".

The customer commented that the price "seemed high". The jeweler interpreted this to be "nickel and diming" and interpreted this to be a request to lower the price. A smarter jeweler might have perceived this differently. This would have been an excellent opportunity for the jeweler to explain the workmanship/materials that went into the setting.....an opportunity to have the customer appreciate the value of the work. If a customer became educated on these things, perhaps he would no longer think the price high.

By the way, I disagree that it's "nickel and diming" to ask how a price is arrived at. It's fair for a customer to ask questions to better understand what they are purchasing.

Regarding the "work of art".....that's great and point well taken, but that's an emotional response. Further, wanting a nice custom setting doesn't necessarily mean that a customer is prepared to pay for "the Mona Lisa" of settings.

It sounds as though neither party was really clear on communicating expectations. None of that matters now....the question now is what to do from here. F&I mskes a great point about the potential to cut off one's nose to spite the face.

SS, my recommendation from here is this: Call an independent appraiser and schedule an tentative appointment to have the ring evaluated....the stone AND the setting. Get at least a 10-day return policy that allows you to return the ring if you aren't satisfied with how it appraises. Get that policy in WRITING, and makes sure it specifies a full refund, not an exchange or store credit. This would allow you to buy the ring on the idea that F&I said, that you're still getting a deal on the stone, but to VERIFY that and have an avenue of recourse if you aren't completely happy.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

 

[spicolicpa]

The issue at hand is that this seller is sooooo far of base with his customer relations that it makes buying a polishing cloth from him a crime.

But, as far as doing the math,

if the buyer feels that she can gamble her hard earned money with the limited knowlegdge she posses about the industry, she should take that leap. I am a big fan of the free market.

I too have fired customer, but I never intimidated them to the point that they were afraid to talk with me.

This is unacceptable behavior and on this site we should be In-powering the customer not soliciting to the bully seller.

I do not really know where this is going. I am suprised that ANYONE can even justify his behavior.

I realize that I am opperating under the same facts that you are and these might not be the whole story but it is her perception of whats going on that upsets me. This vendor is BULLYING the buyer.

 

[magna2]

ss1934,

It is unfortunate that you find yourself in a situation where the jeweler is working against you instead of with you from the onset. I am sure that there was plenty of miscommunication between the two of you.

Nowhere in any of your posts did you state whether the ring was custom made for you or just a setting that he acquired elsewhere. If it was made especially for you, what design criteria did you give him other than you wanted baguettes with it. Is the finished product intricate and meets your expectation absent of price?

If it is what you wanted and hoped for then assess the ring as a total package to determine its' value to you. If it is not what you had expected or if the the price is still too high for you then walk away from this deal. Make sure you recoup all money that you may deposited for the diamond/ring. If no money exchanged hand the better.

If you do walk away from this ring, also walk away from this jeweler. Find someone that would be upfront with you. Only you can determine the total value of the ring regardless of how much the setting may have been overpriced. And only you can determine whether you want to do business with this particular jeweler. Bottomline - has he earned your business?

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/15/2003 1:33:34 PM aljdewey wrote:

----------------
On 10/15/2003 12:40:36 PM fire&ice wrote:
----------------

a nice custom setting doesn't necessarily mean that a customer is prepared to pay for 'the Mona Lisa' of settings.

It sounds as though neither party was really clear on communicating expectations. None of that matters now....the question now is what to do from here. F&I mskes a great point about the potential to cut off one's nose to spite the face.

SS, my recommendation from here is this: Call an independent appraiser and schedule an tentative appointment to have the ring evaluated....the stone AND the setting. Get at least a 10-day return policy that allows you to return the ring if you aren't satisfied with how it appraises. Get that policy in WRITING, and makes sure it specifies a full refund, not an exchange or store credit. This would allow you to buy the ring on the idea that F&I said, that you're still getting a deal on the stone, but to VERIFY that and have an avenue of recourse if you aren't completely happy.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

----------------

First, the price of the Vatche settings w/ making an adjustment for setting a *larger pear* will be well in the the 3k's. So, she may indeed not be paying that much for the setting. MY POINT IS THAT NOBODY HAS ENOUGH INFORMATION TO COMPUTE.

Second, I, too,see the lack of communication as the culprit. My spin on my take in this thread has been - the consumer has some responsiblity to get a ballpark on the price of the setting. I simply can not understand why someone wouldn't (or didn't) ask the question. I feel - from reading - that their is a piece of the puzzle missing. We are only seeing one side of the story & are not privy to what was and wasn't discussed.

Yes, Al, in a perfect world, that is precisely how the dealer should have responded to the price inquiry. Many people simply don't have the people skills.

And, I ditto with how to proceed.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/15/2003 1:56:14 PM fire&ice wrote:




First, the price of the Vatche settings w/ making an adjustment for setting a *larger pear* will be well in the the 3k's. So, she may indeed not be paying that much for the setting. MY POINT IS THAT NOBODY HAS ENOUGH INFORMATION TO COMPUTE.----------------

That point was already made (a little less loudly) before, and was taken. That's why I *didn't* offer a comment on the reasonableness of the price for the setting.

Also, the comparison came up earlier with your comment about a Vatche 3-stone, but I don't see that the poster confirmed this is a designer setting. Comparing a designer setting price to a custom setting price is not necessarily apples-to-apples. As Mara's pointed out several times in previous threads, it is often less expensive to have a custom ring done when compared to the cost of designer.

Lastly, maybe the price isn't high "for what the setting is", but it may be high for her budget.....there's a distinct difference. Perhaps she wasn't looking for something that high-standard....again, I don't think either side communicated well in this transaction.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/15/2003 1:34:04 PM spicolicpa wrote:

The issue at hand is that this seller is sooooo far of base with his customer relations that it makes buying a polishing cloth from him a crime.

I too have fired customer, but I never intimidated them to the point that they were afraid to talk with me.

This is unacceptable behavior

I am suprised that ANYONE can even justify his behavior.

it is her perception of whats going on that upsets me. This vendor is BULLYING the buyer.
----------------

I'm sorry, but these are HUGE assumptive leaps on your part. There are 3 sides to every story......that of party A, that of party B, and that which really happened.

You don't know what his behavior is for sure, and one person's perception or account doesn't necessarily make it so. Further, you're drawing conclusions about behavior that are unsupported even by this poster!

Saying "I will not amend my price" is not bullying....it's stating fact. He hasn't, to my knowledge, said 1) you HAVE to buy this now that I've created it, or 2) if you don't buy it within "x" time frame, I'll yank the offer off the table. THOSE would be instances of bullying.

She's "afraid" to talk to him, you say. Did it occur to you that she's timid because she recognizes her part in failing to be more specific? Perhaps she said "make a platimum ring with .50 baguettes", and then was stunned when the price was more than she expected?

I recently brought a piece in for repair, and the jeweler wanted to send these pieces out, source the stones, and have them set *prior* to my approving the stonesv visually. I wouldn't agree to this. I cannot any imagine any scenario where I would agree to purchase *anything* without knowing the price first, and I agree with F&I that there seems to be more to this story than what's been detailed.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/15/2003 2:25:15 PM aljdewey wrote:

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On 10/15/2003 1:56:14 PM fire&ice wrote:

Also, the comparison came up earlier with your comment about a Vatche 3-stone, but I don't see that the poster confirmed this is a designer setting. Comparing a designer setting price to a custom setting price is not necessarily apples-to-apples. As Mara's pointed out several times in previous threads, it is often less expensive to have a custom ring done when compared to the cost of designer.

----------------

I used the reference in my frame of reference. I know how much I paid for my Vatche setting. I know how much the retail price is for the Vatche setting. I know how much my estimate was to create a ring w/ similar Vatche parameters.

So, perhaps a crystal ball for others. Her price was within a range of acceptable price. Not out of the ballpark as suggested. That said, we don't have enough information.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 10/15/2003 2:51:14 PM fire&ice wrote:










That said, we don't have enough information.

----------------

Agreed........again. The horse is completely bloodied and most assuredly dead on that.

 

[Hest88]

I agree that a consumer has responsibility to be direct with a jeweler. We're not sure if this happened or not.

Ideally, what should have happened is that:

1) The OP should have insisted on a ballpark price for the setting

2) The OP should have insisted that once the design was agreed upon, that the jeweler give her a firm price before beginning the work, if this was a custom piece, or buying the setting, if it were a stock piece

3) The OP should have done more research to see if that pear actually was a bargain.

Obviously none of that happened.

Also, let's say the OP has the situation completely skewed. Even so, the jeweler is obviously a stupid businessman. Creating a setting without a firm price practically guarantees that you'll have to eat the cost every so often or that the consumer ends up feeling cheated by the cost so he/she never comes back

So, hopefully this will be a lesson to all consumers. I'd personally walk away from all this if the jeweler has been the least bit intimidating. This entire transaction has been tainted from the start.