Diamond mark up - is what I'm being told a good deal?

[malish985]

I'm looking to upgrade my diamond and went to see a local jeweler who came recommended from several of really good friends. He seems to be honest and has flat out told me that for the stone that I'm looking to get (around 2ct) he will make a mark up of $1500. As we were discussing various options and generally chatting about diamonds he even showed me the receipts of the stones he had recently purchased so I would get an idea of what diamonds really cost now days. Do you think that $1500 is reasonable or am I getting ripped off? I've looked on-line and his pricing is very much in line with blue nile, etc. Just curious about the mark up. Thank you for any help/advice.

 

[warheadwl]

Diamond noob here, but I think the standard markup for Blue Nile is about 20% (you can google around for BN's margin). I'm sure others would agree that you should compare apples-to-apples, make sure that you're comparing diamonds w/ the same certification, because an EGL diamond probably isn't worth as much as and isn't as good as an GIA/AGS certified diamond of the same grades.

 

[madelise]

Take whatever options your jeweler is about to sell you, write down the detailed specs, come here and look for comparables. Make sure he isn't selling you any EGL or nongraded BS. AGS and GIA only!


There's no such thing as a good deal, IMO. You always get what you pay for in retail.

 

[rubybeth]

Eh, I've heard jewelry/diamonds get marked up 50-60%. As madelise said, there are no 'deals' unless buying secondhand. And, buyer beware when a salesperson tells you anything about their business practice as a way to gain your trust. That seems weird to me and would raise my sixth sense meter.

 

[madelise]

Eh, I've heard jewelry/diamonds get marked up 50-60%. As madelise said, there are no 'deals' unless buying secondhand. And, buyer beware when a salesperson tells you anything about their business practice as a way to gain your trust. That seems weird to me and would raise my sixth sense meter.

YES. THAT! I think it's so strange that they're showing you receipts and whatnot. I wanted to say earlier, but deleted in case anyone thought it was unfair of me: How do you know those receipts are real? Jewelers get their diamonds on memo from the diamond dealers and wholesalers. They don't PURCHASE every single diamond a consumer is interested in! Each consumer wants to see like, what, 10+ options? The jeweler isn't going to go out and buy 10 diamonds just to make one sale. It wouldn't cover their own costs! I'm finding it very suspicious that he's showing you receipts… and I'm going to have to guess the receipt is all BS. It's probably a ploy to get you to think they're trustworthy, so that they can pull the rug from right under you!


This jeweler you speak of smells fishy to me!

 

[malish985]

madelise,
thank you - i should have been more descriptive about the receipts - these were other stones, not the ones i was interested in. He was just showing me what's he's paid for 3 stones he bought recently.
Also, would you consider buying a non-certified diamond and then getting GIA to issue a certificate?
Thanks again.

 

[Gypsy]

Eh, I've heard jewelry/diamonds get marked up 50-60%. As madelise said, there are no 'deals' unless buying secondhand. And, buyer beware when a salesperson tells you anything about their business practice as a way to gain your trust. That seems weird to me and would raise my sixth sense meter.

DIAMONDS do not get marked up that much. Typically the margins are much lower. And even much lower than 20%.

When we bought my diamond 9 years ago, the jeweler had a flat 20% margin. He told us that outright. When I joined PS I discovered that was a HUGE markup compared to our vendors here.

I think 1,500 could be good. Or it could be bad. It depends on what percentage of the total budget it is. What is your budget for the stone as a whole? And what % of that does 1,500 end up being?

Also, Madelise gave you great advice. ALWAYS check comparable on Pricescope to see what other stones with the same statistics (cut, clarity, Lab report, and color, and florescence) are going for.

I do have a feeling though that the PS vendors are going to be lower priced.

 

[malish985]

Well, we are looking to spend about $13.5K including a his mark-up. So that would be $12K stone his cost. I'm looking for around 2ct, G-I quality, nothing visible to the eye, very good or higher cut, measuring close to 8MM. He said he can do that - we are going to see him tomorrow and he'll have a few stones for us to look at.
Thoughts? Thank you

I'm looking for a visually nice stone, with a larger table. I guess in my case it's size over quality, but i'm not willing to have a non-white, marked stone.

 

[madelise]

madelise,
thank you - i should have been more descriptive about the receipts - these were other stones, not the ones i was interested in. He was just showing me what's he's paid for 3 stones he bought recently.
Also, would you consider buying a non-certified diamond and then getting GIA to issue a certificate?
Thanks again.

No. GIA takes a long while to grade stones. While you're waiting for that stone to get graded, you could have purchased another stone. *IF* it was good enough to get a great GIA grading, by golly, the jeweler would have gotten it graded. They make a lot more money if it is graded. There's a reason why those stones aren't graded…

And ditto Gypsy's sentiment.. I always think PS vendors offer cheaper options. I bought from my B&M a few years ago, and kept bargaining and bargaining for her to drop the price. I finally purchased after days of negotiation. I went on PS, did a quick search, and that exact same diamond was being offered by a PS vendor for a couple hundred less… without me needing to spend so much effort bargaining! Wish I woulda done the research before paying the bill!

Your budget is quite tight for a 2 ct in those specs.. which gives me the idea that you've been only looking at uncertified stones. Please be careful with that territory! Jewelers can say ANYTHING to pitch the sale to you.. RT has a huge history of members that have been jipped.

I'd say that the secondary market is where you can get the best "deal", but even the secondary market won't be that low! DS's ring came to mind, and it's still above budget, and lower in carat weight that you'd like:

http://loupetroop.com/listings/ring...g-vs1-gia-xxx-in-vatche-tiffany-repro-setting

 

[madelise]

I'm looking for a visually nice stone, with a larger table.

A larger table to maximize spread = shallow. That won't be visually nice

 

[Gypsy]

Well, we are looking to spend about $13.5K including a his mark-up. So that would be $12K stone his cost. I'm looking for around 2ct, G-I quality, nothing visible to the eye, very good or higher cut, measuring close to 8MM. He said he can do that - we are going to see him tomorrow and he'll have a few stones for us to look at.
Thoughts? Thank you

I'm looking for a visually nice stone, with a larger table. I guess in my case it's size over quality, but i'm not willing to have a non-white, marked stone.

So... there's no way you are looking at a GIA Excellent or AGS 0-1 stone for that price. What types of stones are you looking at? And from what lab.

1.5 works out to 11% of your total purchase price or 13% of your base stone price. Not terrible IN TERMS OF MARGIN.

BUT I seriously doubt that ANY 2 carat round brilliant you are looking at in the G-I range at 13.5 is going to be a good stone to buy. Your budget is correct for a 1.5 carat stone with those specs. So I'm pretty sure you are looking at EGL, and maybe not even EGL USA for that price. And that's not good.

Read this: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL] EGL stones are false economy.

And larger table is NOT a good thing. It means lower crown, and less fire. You REALLY need to learn more about diamonds before you drop THIRTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS on one.

Start here: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut

 

[Dreamer_D]

I'm looking to upgrade my diamond and went to see a local jeweler who came recommended from several of really good friends. He seems to be honest and has flat out told me that for the stone that I'm looking to get (around 2ct) he will make a mark up of $1500. As we were discussing various options and generally chatting about diamonds he even showed me the receipts of the stones he had recently purchased so I would get an idea of what diamonds really cost now days. Do you think that $1500 is reasonable or am I getting ripped off? I've looked on-line and his pricing is very much in line with blue nile, etc. Just curious about the mark up. Thank you for any help/advice.

Souds like a BS sales tactic, and an annoying one at that. Who cares what his markup is?? The end price YOU pay is all that matters. How did that compare to others?

 

[Dreamer_D]

Well, we are looking to spend about $13.5K including a his mark-up. So that would be $12K stone his cost. I'm looking for around 2ct, G-I quality, nothing visible to the eye, very good or higher cut, measuring close to 8MM. He said he can do that - we are going to see him tomorrow and he'll have a few stones for us to look at.
Thoughts? Thank you

I'm looking for a visually nice stone, with a larger table. I guess in my case it's size over quality, but i'm not willing to have a non-white, marked stone.

This is a very unusual way to think about price. You cannot trust what he is telling you about his "markup" and all that. Again, don't worry about that slight of hand mumbo jumbo. Think only about the end price to you and comparison shop.

ONLY buy diamonds with lab reports from GIA or AGS.

You won't be able to afford 2ct with your budget and get a well cut stone.

 

[sonnyjane]

Well, we are looking to spend about $13.5K including a his mark-up. So that would be $12K stone his cost. I'm looking for around 2ct, G-I quality, nothing visible to the eye, very good or higher cut, measuring close to 8MM. He said he can do that - we are going to see him tomorrow and he'll have a few stones for us to look at.
Thoughts? Thank you

I'm looking for a visually nice stone, with a larger table. I guess in my case it's size over quality, but i'm not willing to have a non-white, marked stone.

So... there's no way you are looking at a GIA Excellent or AGS 0-1 stone for that price. What types of stones are you looking at? And from what lab.

1.5 works out to 11% of your total purchase price or 13% of your base stone price. Not terrible IN TERMS OF MARGIN.

BUT I seriously doubt that ANY 2 carat round brilliant you are looking at in the G-I range at 13.5 is going to be a good stone to buy. Your budget is correct for a 1.5 carat stone with those specs. So I'm pretty sure you are looking at EGL, and maybe not even EGL USA for that price. And that's not good.

Read this: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL] EGL stones are false economy.

And larger table is NOT a good thing. It means lower crown, and less fire. You REALLY need to learn more about diamonds before you drop THIRTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS on one.

Start here: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut

OP, if you do absolutely NOTHING else, please listen to Gypsy Your budget can buy you SOME type of diamond that physically weighs 2 carats, but it's not a diamond you want to own, let alone show off! If you continue down your current path, you're going to get scammed or end up with a diamond that is a visual dud. Either increase your budget (save for longer) or go down in size.

 

[Gypsy]

Start here and read this: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Then these
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/tolkowsky-ideal-cut-diamond
and this:
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-crown-and-pavilion
and SPECIFICALLY THIS: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-table-size on table size.


To summarize cut grades for you: (this applies to GIA and EGL USA, and ONLY to true modern round brilliants and does not apply to OECs in anyway shape of form).

Excellent: Some are better than others. Get and idealscope image.
Very good: Not good enough
Good: Poor
Fair: Foul
Poor: Execrable

 

[Gypsy]

For your budget. This is the largest and best I SI (eyeclean) you are looking at, or comparable: http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond-1459837.asp

I would go down to a K SI1 with florescence before going with a 'very good' cut diamond. And I just looked and EVEN THOSE at 2 carats are 14.5k for one that you would actually want to OWN.

 

[malish985]

Wow, I had no idea. Question about certification - I currently have an uncertified stone which has appraised at the same color/clarity level from several jewelers. How would a certification change anything?

 

[Dreamer_D]

A small point of clarification, it is not "certification" it is obtaining a "certificate". A subtle distinction but worthy of mention because "certification" implies some sort of warranty, which a lab report does not provid.

Labs like GIA use methods of rating color and clarity that allow for amazing precision and reliability from stone to stone. This means you can compare value from diamond to diamond as long as they have the same lab report specs. Appraisers who examine diamonds mounted or loose usually do not use the same methods as GIA and are not as reliable. I think you might be surprised to see how your or any other diamond without a lab report would *really* be graded by GIA or AGS.

In addition labs assess the cut quality of a diamond using well tested and valid methods. This is something you cannot get from an uncertified stone.

Finally, diamond sellers target some diamonds for sale without reports, some for sale with reports. They target the diamond for those markets based on how much money that can get for the diamond. If a diamond is being offered without a lab report -- NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE TOLD BY YOUR JEWELER -- then it means that that diamond would sell for less money if it had a report. The dealer knows this and so firgures he can fool a consumer by offering it without a report and his own fudged evaluation. This is the sad economics of the diamond industry.

So buying a diamond with a lab report means you are paying a fair price for what you are getting, rather than being fooled and cheated by a diamond vendor.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Well, we are looking to spend about $13.5K including a his mark-up. So that would be $12K stone his cost. I'm looking for around 2ct, G-I quality, nothing visible to the eye, very good or higher cut, measuring close to 8MM. He said he can do that - we are going to see him tomorrow and he'll have a few stones for us to look at.
Thoughts? Thank you

I'm looking for a visually nice stone, with a larger table. I guess in my case it's size over quality, but i'm not willing to have a non-white, marked stone.

before you go see him...tell him that your looking for a 2ct GIA XXX or AGS 0 cut stones...

 

[malish985]

What would be good "specs" for a 2 ct (other than color and clarity) in terms of
depth %
table 5
crown & pavillion
%
Diameter
girdle

Thank you!

 

[Dreamer_D]

You don't need to worry about it if you just select an Excellent cut grade from GIA or Ideal from AGS.

 

[Gypsy]

Did one of these helpful jewelers run a Sarin on this stone so you could know what the angles and table and depth measurements are on the stone? NO.

Did they explain WHY that information is important and explain how they result in light performance and why light performance is important? NO.

Provide you with an idealscope so you could check out the light performance? NO.
Show you the GIA master stones they are using, with your stone next to them so you could see FOR YOURSELF, what the color of the stone was (upside down and on a white sheet of paper)? NO.

Did they show you the clarity of the stones under magnification and tell you what each is, and explain how they arrived at their clarity rating? NO.

How do you know anything that they told you is correct, if you haven't verified any of it yourself?

Just the fact that you think a big table is a good thing tells me you can't rely on ANYTHING these people are 'claiming'.

 

[Gypsy]

I AGREE YOU SHOULD STICK TO GIA EXCELLENT OR AGS0.

BUT if for some reason you want to proceed with the insanity of buying a stone without a lab report knowing absolutely NOTHING about diamonds. This might help you.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

Also, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

With that said, here''s a "Cliff''s Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35).

 

[malish985]

I really appreciate all of the advise and now am re-thinking this entire endeavor. But one last question, what if I were to pick a stone and then tell the jeweler that i won't pay for it unless GIA comes back with the report that verifies all the specs? Or is it still not something I should be doing? Thanks

 

[malish985]

Can someone take a look at this stone from bluenile for me? does this look like a good stone/price? Thank you!
http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?track=head#diamonds_pid=LD02714636

 

[rubybeth]

I really appreciate all of the advise and now am re-thinking this entire endeavor. But one last question, what if I were to pick a stone and then tell the jeweler that i won't pay for it unless GIA comes back with the report that verifies all the specs? Or is it still not something I should be doing? Thanks

That just seems like an exercise in futility, to me. Save the time and hassle and just get a good stone with a certificate to begin with.

 

[Gypsy]

I really appreciate all of the advise and now am re-thinking this entire endeavor. But one last question, what if I were to pick a stone and then tell the jeweler that i won't pay for it unless GIA comes back with the report that verifies all the specs? Or is it still not something I should be doing? Thanks

YOU NEED TO BUY AN IDEALSCOPE FIRST. THEN:

You need a jeweler who can provide the following UP FRONT:

SARIN of the stone. THEN you should run the numbers under the HCA: https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca Anything under 2 is worth looking at with your idealscope.

GIA master color stones. White piece of paper. And should sit with you and show you (stone should be upside down) which color grade he thinks.

10x magnification loupe and or 20/40x as well. Should show you inclusions AND TELL YOU WHAT THEY ARE under magnification. Explain clarity grading is done at 10x (stone should be face up) and then show you it under greater magnification so you can see them anyway, clearer despite the 10x lab grading standard.


You need ALL OF THAT to buy a stone without a lab report from GIA or AGS (with an EGL report, I'd want all of this as well).

 

[malish985]

I really appreciate all of the advise and now am re-thinking this entire endeavor. But one last question, what if I were to pick a stone and then tell the jeweler that i won't pay for it unless GIA comes back with the report that verifies all the specs? Or is it still not something I should be doing? Thanks

YOU NEED TO BUY AN IDEALSCOPE FIRST. THEN:

You need a jeweler who can provide the following UP FRONT:

SARIN of the stone. THEN you should run the numbers under the HCA: https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca Anything under 2 is worth looking at with your idealscope.

GIA master color stones. White piece of paper. And should sit with you and show you (stone should be upside down) which color grade he thinks.

10x magnification loupe and or 20/40x as well. Should show you inclusions AND TELL YOU WHAT THEY ARE under magnification. Explain clarity grading is done at 10x (stone should be face up) and then show you it under greater magnification so you can see them anyway, clearer despite the 10x lab grading standard.


You need ALL OF THAT to buy a stone without a lab report from GIA or AGS (with an EGL report, I'd want all of this as well).

Gypsy,

I'm so grateful for all your help! Thank you so much.

 

[Gypsy]

Can someone take a look at this stone from bluenile for me? does this look like a good stone/price? Thank you!
http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?track=head#diamonds_pid=LD02714636

ONCE AGAIN:

To summarize cut grades for you: (this applies to GIA and EGL USA, and ONLY to true modern round brilliants and does not apply to OECs in anyway shape of form).

Excellent: Some are better than others. Get and idealscope image.
Very good: Not good enough
Good: Poor
Fair: Foul
Poor: Execrable

RUN NUMBERS THROUGH: https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca ANYTHING OVER 2 IS NOT OKAY.

 

[vintagelover229]

Here is a good video explaining the CUT of diamonds and why it's important when selecting a diamond-there are lots of good videos on jonathans site as well www.goodoldgold.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_DHsCTnrRo&feature=plcp

You say you are upgrading your current stone correct? May I ask what the "trade" in value that the jeweler is giving you?
I'd recommend either selling it to him and then take your additional 13k and get something from a PS vendor.

I'm an antique fan so that experts will have to chime in but here is one for 13k and you don't have to sell your current ring
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2809438.htm


Here is an ideal at 17k which hopefully you can get after trading/selling your current stone

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2810108.htm


Here is a really good deal on just over 1.5 carats
http://diamondbistro.com/category/216/Natural-Diamond-Center/listings/30803/154-ct-Round-Brilliant-Platinum-Ring.html

Here is another beautiful stone being sold by a PSer (as you can see it's 16k for a 2nd hand stone that isn't near 2 carats)
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/forum/preloved-ps-jewels/1-58-gia-xxx-g-vs1-and-vatche-tiffany-repro-setting-t178939.html']https://www.pricescope.com/forum/preloved-ps-jewels/1-58-gia-xxx-g-vs1-and-vatche-tiffany-repro-setting-t178939.html[/URL]

Have you considered a vintage stone? You can get a really nice 2 carat antique stone probably even without selling your current diamond.

This one is 10k and 2.2 carats
http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Jewelry/Loose-Diamonds/220ct-Loose-OEC/20930169_g3PZxS#!i=1663945467&k=zmFxMk5


Here are a few recent threads with beautiful antique stones (old mine is closer to a cushion shape-OEC is round shape)

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-amazing-holy-grail-9-9mm-oec.178975/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-amazing-holy-grail-9-9mm-oec.178975/[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-2-02ct-old-mine-halo-reset-upgrade.177417/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-2-02ct-old-mine-halo-reset-upgrade.177417/[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/be-still-my-heart-3-62-oec-from-jbeg-in-the-julia.178866/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/be-still-my-heart-3-62-oec-from-jbeg-in-the-julia.178866/[/URL]

She cut her Round brilliant to an OEC
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/reveal-single-stone-reset-lots-of-pics.179152/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/reveal-single-stone-reset-lots-of-pics.179152/[/URL]

Another amazing OEC
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-dream-ring-8-1mm-european-cut-diamond.177658/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-dream-ring-8-1mm-european-cut-diamond.177658/[/URL]

OMB
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-14ct-omb-in-hand-forged-halo-setting-by-mark-at-erd.174860/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/3-14ct-omb-in-hand-forged-halo-setting-by-mark-at-erd.174860/[/URL]