Dealing with a friend's abusive husband

[Calliecake]

I totally agree that having an affair was bad behavior.

At the same time, if I felt trapped in a marriage (because of kids, financial instability, belief that I can't do any better) plus years of emotionally and physically absent partner and "grey" rape....idk. I can see how it could get to that point.

I'm not as close with her as I was before the affair. But I hate to distance myself now, when she needs some support to get out of this mess.

I feel so torn.

What in the world is "grey" rape?

I have the same question House Cat.
Rape is rape...PERIOD!!!!!!

 

[FightGravity]

I put it in quotes because I don't see it that way. Sex without consent is rape. Period.

Her words, not mine.

Examples:

She woke up to him having sex with her. He claimed to have initiated sex in his sleep.

Multiple instances of her not saying no, and just lying there while he has sex with her. Allegedly he doesn't know she doesn't want it (?????)

 

[Dancing Fire]

Unfortunately DF has proven time and time again with his comments that he is nothing but a blatant bigoted misogynist, so no, I'd rather hold him accountable for the the actual things he says. He deserves no benefit of the doubt.

Ella, how many comments of his do I have to report before he is banned? I don't care how many Pateks or Octavias he posts.

WOW! ,So every time when you disagree with a post you go running and crying to Ella?... .. I have been a member here since 2004 and I have never use the report button, not even one time. Yes, from time to time I'd disagree with comments posted by members here. however, I would never hold a grudge against any PSers no matter how much we disagreed on a topic.

 

[Gypsy]

I put it in quotes because I don't see it that way. Sex without consent is rape. Period.

Her words, not mine.

Examples:

She woke up to him having sex with her. He claimed to have initiated sex in his sleep.

Multiple instances of her not saying no, and just lying there while he has sex with her. Allegedly he doesn't know she doesn't want it (?????)

Ahh. I see why you used the term. Still find it offensive, but I get it now.

That said, if my husband did that to me ONE TIME (and he NEVER EVER WOULD) there is no WAY he would do it a second. Know why? I would read him the riot act before he could ejaculate and he would NEVER EVER make the "mistake" of not knowing when I want to have sex or not.

So... I'm thinking there are more problems here than we know of. Maybe its her guilt making her feel like she can't say anything. But that just tells me that without significant changes to their marital communication, a lot of trust building, and tons of therapy they really don't have a chance.

 

[Polished]

This marriage sounds like it's past the point of no return to me. The counselling she'd need would be along the lines of her seeing how her sense of self-worth has been broken down. As Gypsy says, what he does shouldn't be taken by her a single time. Given this has happened on numerous occasions she's sending out a message, to both herself and him, that she's tacitly agreeing to it.

 

[Trekkie]

This marriage sounds like it's past the point of no return to me. The counselling she'd need would be along the lines of her seeing how her sense of self-worth has been broken down. As Gypsy says, what he does shouldn't be taken by her a single time. Given this has happened on numerous occasions she's sending out a message, to both herself and him, that she's tacitly agreeing to it.

Yup.

 

[arkieb1]

I had a friend who was married to an abusive Russian guy (she never cheated on him) to the outside world he was an attractive professionally working guy who behind closed doors used to grab her by the hair, push her into walls, and rape her, he used to laugh about not leaving marks on her, and she didn't "agree" to any of it. I don't think you can judge what someone agrees to unless you know the person and are involved in the situation. Sex without consent is rape, period. And yes they are now after many years of her not thinking she was worth anything better, thankfully, finally divorced.

 

[liaerfbv]

Unfortunately DF has proven time and time again with his comments that he is nothing but a blatant bigoted misogynist, so no, I'd rather hold him accountable for the the actual things he says. He deserves no benefit of the doubt.

Ella, how many comments of his do I have to report before he is banned? I don't care how many Pateks or Octavias he posts.

WOW! ,So every time when you disagree with a post you go running and crying to Ella?... .. I have been a member here since 2004 and I have never use the report button, not even one time. Yes, from time to time I'd disagree with comments posted by members here. however, I would never hold a grudge against any PSers no matter how much we disagreed on a topic.

You can think of it less like a grudge and more like a general intolerance for hate speech. Your comments encouraging racial profiling, transphobia, poverty shaming, and promoting rape culture are not "cute" or "funny" -- and I don't care how long you've been a member here or how many posts you have.

 

[mom2dolls]

Be supportive of your friend, however you have every right to not want her husband around your children.
Your children are young enough to adjust.
Only she can decide when she is ready and willing to leave her marriage. No one can push her one way or the other.

My sister was in an abusive marriage for years. He would get drunk and force himself on her. He would physically abuse her, making sure to never leave a visible mark. She is a teacher and he is a ER doctor. Finally she had enough.
She talked to people, no one believed her!! NO ONE! Because he is an upstanding citizen and part of a large family in the community.
She was put through HELL for years. Bullied at her school, her car vandalized, her children had to be pulled out of the private school they attended. Not every situation works out perfectly. People are terrible.

Be there for her, it is the only thing you can do. Please do not confront her husband, that is not your place. Even being a therapist yourself. She will in turn suffer for it.

Rape is rape, married or not. Her affair has nothing to do it with it.

 

[House Cat]

I get it. She is using the term "grey rape" to soften the blow to her own psyche.

She isn't ready to face her reality yet.


You can face her reality by knowing that a man who repeatedly rapes his wife makes his own rules in this world. He will have no problem traumatizing children or you if the rubber hits the road. Keep yourself and your loved ones safe.


It's ok to be supportive. It's a whole other thing to drown with someone who won't or can't save themselves.

 

[sonnyjane]

There have been a few times over the years that this question comes up and my answer is the same. You can be supportive of your friend. You can let her know that if she decides to leave that you'll be there to help her through that tough time. You can NOT do a damn thing about his behavior or about the fact that she seems to be ok with the relationship.

I've lost many friends because they chose to stay with their abuser. I always made it clear that I didn't like the way they were being treated, and because they weren't ready to leave or change the situation, they started lying to me or withholding information, and then finally they just stopped communicating with me altogether because they knew I'd be upset with what was going on.

I hope she gets out, but the only thing you can do is protect YOUR family and yourself by staying far, far away from him, which sadly may mean also staying away from her if it comes to that.

 

[Jambalaya]

I don't think there's anything you can do. Being supportive is fine but if the situation goes on for many years, like a decade or more, it can become ever more frustrating. I had a thread on this once, with my cousin. She made a firm decision to stay with her abuser and now, of course, she tells me nothing about the relationship. I was supportive for a decade in terms of always listening, always being non-judgemental etc, and what happened over that time period is that the abuse got worse. She called me and told me this, and said that she was divorcing him. At this point I told her, gently but firmly, that I had never liked him and that she should get out while her mother is still alive to support her, and her older brothers. I had never before told her what i really thought of her husband. Then she decided that staying was her final decision, and things have never really been the same between us.

So, in my limited experience, nothing really works. Support doesn't work in the long run, because the situation is evolving and how long can you watch your friend get hurt before you take a stand with her and tell her the thoughts you've been sitting on for a decade? Over many years, the truth of what you really think of the situation comes out. So you tell her the truth, because just listening hasn't worked and things are getting worse, it's physical and the children are getting older and seeing everything. Then, if she stays, the relationship is damaged, because you tried to open her eyes, mere support having had no effect.

The abused party has to make the decision to leave, and I found that nothing you can do or say has any effect. If you're going to continue to be friends, I think you have to decide to be very detached about it - in the nicest possible way - and know that you are utterly powerless. Expect nothing.

I'm sorry. It's difficult to watch someone you care about get so hurt.

 

[Jambalaya]

I don't think there's anything you can do. Being supportive is fine but if the situation goes on for many years, like a decade or more, it can become ever more frustrating. I had a thread on this once, with my cousin. She made a firm decision to stay with her abuser and now, of course, she tells me nothing about the relationship. I was supportive for a decade in terms of always listening, always being non-judgemental etc, and what happened over that time period is that the abuse got worse. She called me and told me this, and said that she was divorcing him. At this point I told her, gently but firmly, that I had never liked him and that she should get out while her mother is still alive to support her, and her older brothers. I had never before told her what i really thought of her husband. Then she decided that staying was her final decision, and things have never really been the same between us.

So, in my limited experience, nothing really works in the end. Support doesn't work in the long run, because the situation is evolving and how long can you watch your friend get hurt before you take a stand with her and tell her the thoughts you've been sitting on for a decade? Over many years, the truth of what you really think of the situation comes out. So you tell her the truth, because just listening hasn't worked and things are getting worse, it's physical and the children are getting older and seeing everything. Then, if she stays, the relationship is damaged, because you tried to open her eyes, mere support having had no effect.

The abused party has to make the decision to leave, and I found that nothing you can do or say has any effect. If you're going to continue to be friends, I think you have to decide to be very detached about it - in the nicest possible way - and know that you are utterly powerless to effect change. Expect nothing.

I'm sorry. It's difficult to watch someone you care about get so hurt.

 

[FightGravity]

There have been a few times over the years that this question comes up and my answer is the same. You can be supportive of your friend. You can let her know that if she decides to leave that you'll be there to help her through that tough time. You can NOT do a damn thing about his behavior or about the fact that she seems to be ok with the relationship.

I've lost many friends because they chose to stay with their abuser. I always made it clear that I didn't like the way they were being treated, and because they weren't ready to leave or change the situation, they started lying to me or withholding information, and then finally they just stopped communicating with me altogether because they knew I'd be upset with what was going on.

I hope she gets out, but the only thing you can do is protect YOUR family and yourself by staying far, far away from him, which sadly may mean also staying away from her if it comes to that.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. That there is no real way to support her while also protecting myself and my kids. It sucks.

 

[sonnyjane]

There have been a few times over the years that this question comes up and my answer is the same. You can be supportive of your friend. You can let her know that if she decides to leave that you'll be there to help her through that tough time. You can NOT do a damn thing about his behavior or about the fact that she seems to be ok with the relationship.

I've lost many friends because they chose to stay with their abuser. I always made it clear that I didn't like the way they were being treated, and because they weren't ready to leave or change the situation, they started lying to me or withholding information, and then finally they just stopped communicating with me altogether because they knew I'd be upset with what was going on.

I hope she gets out, but the only thing you can do is protect YOUR family and yourself by staying far, far away from him, which sadly may mean also staying away from her if it comes to that.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. That there is no real way to support her while also protecting myself and my kids. It sucks.

In my eyes (and those of many experts), it's no different than a drug, alcohol, or gambling addiction. Even just sitting there listening to her vent while she is essentially harming herself (by staying in such a relationship) is enabling. It's okay to let them know that when they're ready to get help, you'll be there 100%, but that you can't be a witness to their destruction without it having negative impacts on your own life.

 

[Gypsy]

I honestly have not, thankfully, been in this position. So I don't know what I'd do as a friend.

My niece, one of them, is in a relationship that I feel has 'red flags' of this type of behavior. Three other people believe me. But the rest of the family is just happy that she is in a 'stable' relationship because she is... well, she's a problem child. I think everyone else wants to keep their rose color glasses on.

But, I've only met the guy three times. I live across the country.

I know these abusive predators work by isolating their victims from people who would help their victims while undermining their confidence and making them feel indebted to them.

SO I would like to say I would be endlessly supportive. But I really wanted to scream at my niece and forcibly remove her from the situation and just keep her safe, regardless of what she wanted.

Do the best you can Fighting Gravity. That's all you can do. ((HUGS)). It's a difficult situation and there are no easy answers.

Can you recommend she goes to therapy? Specifically CBT therapy?

I honestly think there is no saving this relationship. If you can, just get he the support to save herself.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

There have been a few times over the years that this question comes up and my answer is the same. You can be supportive of your friend. You can let her know that if she decides to leave that you'll be there to help her through that tough time. You can NOT do a damn thing about his behavior or about the fact that she seems to be ok with the relationship.

I've lost many friends because they chose to stay with their abuser. I always made it clear that I didn't like the way they were being treated, and because they weren't ready to leave or change the situation, they started lying to me or withholding information, and then finally they just stopped communicating with me altogether because they knew I'd be upset with what was going on.

I hope she gets out, but the only thing you can do is protect YOUR family and yourself by staying far, far away from him, which sadly may mean also staying away from her if it comes to that.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. That there is no real way to support her while also protecting myself and my kids. It sucks.

In my eyes (and those of many experts), it's no different than a drug, alcohol, or gambling addiction. Even just sitting there listening to her vent while she is essentially harming herself (by staying in such a relationship) is enabling. It's okay to let them know that when they're ready to get help, you'll be there 100%, but that you can't be a witness to their destruction without it having negative impacts on your own life.

I am considered an expert and disagree with your comparison. Addiction is a disease and I coach family members to support the patient while setting appropriate and healthy boundaries. I do not consider listening to be "enabling." As a therapist, I doubt the OP would agree. I often have to listen to many this I personally disagree with and am able to support the person gain insight and strength. As a victim of sexual abuse, she is the victim. No matter what choices she made, no one deserves to be taken advantage of in that way. However, she may not be ready to leave. I had many people judge my marriage and it was beyond hurtful. FightingGravity, you know how to set boundaries. If you cannot love and support her than maybe taking a break from the friendship is a good idea. We all have our opinions but I think you know that she is looking for empathy, not judgment.

 

[sonnyjane]

There have been a few times over the years that this question comes up and my answer is the same. You can be supportive of your friend. You can let her know that if she decides to leave that you'll be there to help her through that tough time. You can NOT do a damn thing about his behavior or about the fact that she seems to be ok with the relationship.

I've lost many friends because they chose to stay with their abuser. I always made it clear that I didn't like the way they were being treated, and because they weren't ready to leave or change the situation, they started lying to me or withholding information, and then finally they just stopped communicating with me altogether because they knew I'd be upset with what was going on.

I hope she gets out, but the only thing you can do is protect YOUR family and yourself by staying far, far away from him, which sadly may mean also staying away from her if it comes to that.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. That there is no real way to support her while also protecting myself and my kids. It sucks.

In my eyes (and those of many experts), it's no different than a drug, alcohol, or gambling addiction. Even just sitting there listening to her vent while she is essentially harming herself (by staying in such a relationship) is enabling. It's okay to let them know that when they're ready to get help, you'll be there 100%, but that you can't be a witness to their destruction without it having negative impacts on your own life.

I am considered an expert and disagree with your comparison. Addiction is a disease and I coach family members to support the patient while setting appropriate and healthy boundaries. I do not consider listening to be "enabling." As a therapist, I doubt the OP would agree. I often have to listen to many this I personally disagree with and am able to support the person gain insight and strength. As a victim of sexual abuse, she is the victim. No matter what choices she made, no one deserves to be taken advantage of in that way. However, she may not be ready to leave. I had many people judge my marriage and it was beyond hurtful. FightingGravity, you know how to set boundaries. If you cannot love and support her than maybe taking a break from the friendship is a good idea. We all have our opinions but I think you know that she is looking for empathy, not judgment.

I think when I refer to listening as enabling, I mean those people that listen to their friends tell them about abuse or a bad relationship in general and just nod or say "man, that sucks. I hope things get better." I know PLENTY of people that don't want to get involved so they don't put in their honest two cents, and I think that's doing a great disservice to their friends.

That said, as others here have mentioned, once you DO make your true feelings about the situation known, it usually makes the friend clam up about the relationship.

 

[FightGravity]

There have been a few times over the years that this question comes up and my answer is the same. You can be supportive of your friend. You can let her know that if she decides to leave that you'll be there to help her through that tough time. You can NOT do a damn thing about his behavior or about the fact that she seems to be ok with the relationship.

I've lost many friends because they chose to stay with their abuser. I always made it clear that I didn't like the way they were being treated, and because they weren't ready to leave or change the situation, they started lying to me or withholding information, and then finally they just stopped communicating with me altogether because they knew I'd be upset with what was going on.

I hope she gets out, but the only thing you can do is protect YOUR family and yourself by staying far, far away from him, which sadly may mean also staying away from her if it comes to that.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. That there is no real way to support her while also protecting myself and my kids. It sucks.

In my eyes (and those of many experts), it's no different than a drug, alcohol, or gambling addiction. Even just sitting there listening to her vent while she is essentially harming herself (by staying in such a relationship) is enabling. It's okay to let them know that when they're ready to get help, you'll be there 100%, but that you can't be a witness to their destruction without it having negative impacts on your own life.

I am considered an expert and disagree with your comparison. Addiction is a disease and I coach family members to support the patient while setting appropriate and healthy boundaries. I do not consider listening to be "enabling." As a therapist, I doubt the OP would agree. I often have to listen to many this I personally disagree with and am able to support the person gain insight and strength. As a victim of sexual abuse, she is the victim. No matter what choices she made, no one deserves to be taken advantage of in that way. However, she may not be ready to leave. I had many people judge my marriage and it was beyond hurtful. FightingGravity, you know how to set boundaries. If you cannot love and support her than maybe taking a break from the friendship is a good idea. We all have our opinions but I think you know that she is looking for empathy, not judgment.

Tacori, I totally agree. She is being victimized, and needs support and empathy. I don't see being the victim of partner violence as being the same as addiction, nor do I see empathic listening in either situation as being enabling.

I've told her that I can't be around him, because I am too angry, that she doesn't deserve to be treated like this, and said that if this isn't the last straw, what is? I don't think I have to abandon the friendship because she is being abused. I do worry that setting the appropriate boundaries regarding her husband will ultimately destroy my relationship with her, but I don't think I have another viable option at this point.

 

[Jambalaya]

[quote="FightGravity|1468014088|I've told her that I can't be around him, because I am too angry, that she doesn't deserve to be treated like this, and said that if this isn't the last straw, what is? I don't think I have to abandon the friendship because she is being abused. I do worry that setting the appropriate boundaries regarding her husband will ultimately destroy my relationship with her, but I don't think I have another viable option at this point.[/quote]

I hear you, I really do. My cousin's marriage did pretty much finish our friendship, and we're not close now, but to be honest it's been a real relief. Life has been much more peaceful.

I learned that serious life problems like spousal abuse do tend to have many ripples outward, more than you would think if you'd never been in the situation. It's amazing to me that our relationship has been a casualty of her marriage.

I feel for you; it really is an impossible situation and it absolutely does have the power to spoil your friendship. It's extremely sad all round, but really there's just nothing you can do about it. I'm so sorry. Maybe one day she'll leave him and you can be closer again.

 

[luv2sparkle]

I think I wouldn't be able to socialize with the husband present either. I would want to maintain a friendship but there are some serious issues in that marriage on both sides. They have both made marriage ending choices and if there are children involved, I would worry for what they are taking in and absorbing.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Help me understand one thing. If my husband tried to do that, I'd just get out of bed if he didn't stop. So are you saying he was either threatening her with harm or physically restraining her to force her to have sex? Because that is rape. Staying in bed and giving in to having sex when you really don't want to is not. The first is abuse and she should leave immediately if that is the case.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think I wouldn't be able to socialize with the husband present either. I would want to maintain a friendship but there are some serious issues in that marriage on both sides. They have both made marriage ending choices and if there are children involved, I would worry for what they are taking in and absorbing.

+1, except I would not support a friend who chooses to have an affair nor one that abuses their spouse.

 

[House Cat]

Help me understand one thing. If my husband tried to do that, I'd just get out of bed if he didn't stop. So are you saying he was either threatening her with harm or physically restraining her to force her to have sex? Because that is rape. Staying in bed and giving in to having sex when you really don't want to is not. The first is abuse and she should leave immediately if that is the case.

For trauma victims people often talk about the fight or flight response...this is incomplete. The response if fight, flight or freeze. When someone is in an abusive relationship, the abuser has all of the power. The abuser has created a campaign of fear that might use words, actions, abandonments, insults, control. The abuse might be overt or covert. But for someone who is experiencing the abuse, they might just freeze when they wake up while being raped by the person they fear.

There are many reasons why one might do so. Shock is the first reason. Fear that if you stick up for yourself and stop the act, the punishment would be so much worse. There are many reasons why the abused would stay in bed.

This absolutely is rape.

When fear and abuse are used to get sex, when there is no consent, it is rape. Laying in bed, frozen in fear is not consent.

 

[luv2sparkle]

I think I wouldn't be able to socialize with the husband present either. I would want to maintain a friendship but there are some serious issues in that marriage on both sides. They have both made marriage ending choices and if there are children involved, I would worry for what they are taking in and absorbing.

+1, except I would not support a friend who chooses to have an affair nor one that abuses their spouse.

I agree with you DS. I guess it would depend on the circumstances. I was thinking of my closest friend. I can't imagine her ever cheating, but we have been friends for so long. I love her so much that I would have a hard time walking away if she came clean and was sorry it had ever happened. If it was not such a long time friendship, or if the friend was not upset by what had happened- I would indeed be done.

 

[JaneSmith]

This marriage sounds like it's past the point of no return to me. The counselling she'd need would be along the lines of her seeing how her sense of self-worth has been broken down. As Gypsy says, what he does shouldn't be taken by her a single time. Given this has happened on numerous occasions she's sending out a message, to both herself and him, that she's tacitly agreeing to it.

Yup.

NOPE.

Help me understand one thing. If my husband tried to do that, I'd just get out of bed if he didn't stop. So are you saying he was either threatening her with harm or physically restraining her to force her to have sex? Because that is rape. Staying in bed and giving in to having sex when you really don't want to is not. The first is abuse and she should leave immediately if that is the case.

For trauma victims people often talk about the fight or flight response...this is incomplete. The response if fight, flight or freeze. When someone is in an abusive relationship, the abuser has all of the power. The abuser has created a campaign of fear that might use words, actions, abandonments, insults, control. The abuse might be overt or covert. But for someone who is experiencing the abuse, they might just freeze when they wake up while being raped by the person they fear.

There are many reasons why one might do so. Shock is the first reason. Fear that if you stick up for yourself and stop the act, the punishment would be so much worse. There are many reasons why the abused would stay in bed.

This absolutely is rape.

When fear and abuse are used to get sex, when there is no consent, it is rape. Laying in bed, frozen in fear is not consent.

Amazing how many unwitting rape apologists there are in this thread because of ignorance about consent and expectations of 'correct' responses to abuse.

 

[liaerfbv]

Help me understand one thing. If my husband tried to do that, I'd just get out of bed if he didn't stop. So are you saying he was either threatening her with harm or physically restraining her to force her to have sex? Because that is rape. Staying in bed and giving in to having sex when you really don't want to is not. The first is abuse and she should leave immediately if that is the case.

That is absolutely rape. There's no other way to describe it.

 

[House Cat]

http://www.bustle.com/articles/67926-is-it-rape-if-you-say-yes-5-types-of-sexual-coercion-explained

Some types of coercion explained. If a person is coerced, they are not giving consent.

 

[anne_h]

Great article HouseCat. Being married or in a relationship does not mean sex is owed.

I was raised in a religious family and taught that sex is part of 'wifely duty'. Barf! But I have to say that even when I left home and those influences, a good chunk of the (non-religious) men I dated had similar expectations/hopes around sexual services to be provided. Needless to say, those situations did not last. I think such continuing expectations highlight that culturally, we still have a ways to go to achieve true equality. Like - everyone has the right to control what happens with their own body. A woman exists to please herself and live her own life, not to service/please the various men around her. (I could go on and on here...)

I hope OP's friend gets out of her difficult relationship situation soon.

Anne

 

[Polished]

I've told her that I can't be around him, because I am too angry, that she doesn't deserve to be treated like this, and said that if this isn't the last straw, what is? I don't think I have to abandon the friendship because she is being abused. I do worry that setting the appropriate boundaries regarding her husband will ultimately destroy my relationship with her, but I don't think I have another viable option at this point.

This all seems spot on to me on how to handle things. What confuses me sometimes in these case is that the victim herself is often only too aware that what is happening to them is not ok and that they are not to blame for it. Empowering them to leave the situation is a whole other thing. Anyone supporting runs the risk of assisting through empowering themself, which probably has the effect of further disempowering the person who is in need of taking action.